Proof of Trinity

[jocor]

About the Son -He is called both God and Son.

He is not called "God" except in our English translations. In Hebrew he is called "elohim" and in Greek "theos". Both words can refer to beings other than Father Yahweh.

Is Jesus God?
He never dies.

I don't know what you are trying to say here, but "God" cannot die. That is why, when the words elohim or theos are applied to the Son, it cannot be translated "God". "God" with a capital G should only be applied to the one true God, Yeshua's Father (John 17:3). All others should be translated "god" or "mighty one".

About the Son:
But about the Son he says,

“Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever;

a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.

9You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;

therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions

by anointing you with the oil of joy.”e

Two Gods? Impossible. How can one God have a God? There is no other God, but Father Yahweh. All others are lesser elohim as were the mighty men and judges of Israel.

 

[Randy]

He is not called "God" except in our English translations. In Hebrew he is called "elohim" and in Greek "theos". Both words can refer to beings other than Father Yahweh.


I don't know what you are trying to say here, but "God" cannot die. That is why, when the words elohim or theos are applied to the Son, it cannot be translated "God". "God" with a capital G should only be applied to the one true God, Yeshua's Father (John 17:3). All others should be translated "god" or "mighty one".


Two Gods? Impossible. How can one God have a God? There is no other God, but Father Yahweh. All others are lesser elohim as were the mighty men and judges of Israel.

Those who listen and learn from the Father go to the Son and HE will raise them up on the last day. That is Gods will. Jesus must then have all He needs to raise us up on the last day. All the fulness of God indwells Him.

The Father -The One True God, as Jesus stated, is the One who gave Jesus, (His Firstborn-as Paul wrote), HIS Fullness. The scripture truthfully depicts, (and cannot be broken), what the Father stated about His Son . The writer of Hebrews took pain to show this to future generations for understanding that the name Jesus inherited is far above even the angels of God. About the Son...when the firstborn comes into the world...

Jesus is the image of the invisible God and the exact representation of Gods being. ALL the treasures of wisdom and knowledge are hidden in Him. Yes -Mighty God in that context. No-He is not God as He is and always has been Gods Son. And as hebrews also states the creation was made through Him.

Hebrews:
For to which of the angels did God ever say,

“You are my Son;

today I have become your Father”a ?

Or again,

“I will be his Father,

and he will be my Son”b ?

6And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says,

“Let all God’s angels worship him.”c

7In speaking of the angels he says,

“He makes his angels spirits,

and his servants flames of fire.”d

8But about the Son he says,

“Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever;

a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.

9You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;

therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions

by anointing you with the oil of joy.”e

10He also says,

“In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,

and the heavens are the work of your hands.

11They will perish, but you remain;

they will all wear out like a garment.

12You will roll them up like a robe;

like a garment they will be changed.

But you remain the same,

and your years will never end.”f

13To which of the angels did God ever say,

“Sit at my right hand

until I make your enemies

a footstool for your feet”g ?

14Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?

 

[Free]

What Scripture shows the Father and Son are not two separate beings?

All the passages that state there is only one God. Monotheism is a foundational truth of Christianity.

Is this diagram not a true representation of the trinity?

Yes, it is.

I totally agree with this except for capitalizing "Word". What I disagree with is making this word a person instead of the Father's spoken words and thoughts. That is reading the Son into the text.

The whole point of John's prologue is to introduce us to just who the Son is--he preexisted with the Father, and not only this is carried throughout his gospel, but is, as I have stated, in perfect agreement with a few of Paul's statements about who Jesus is as well.

Notice also John 17:4-5, "4 I glorified you on earth, having accomplished the work that you gave me to do. 5 And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed." (ESV)

Jesus uses a personal pronoun when speaking of the glory he had with the Father before the world existed.

Also Isaiah 9:6, "For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace." (ESV)

It is worth noting that "to us a child is born" but that it is "to us a son is given."

All these passages agree and are consistent with the idea that the Son has always existed, just as the Father has.

Psalm 2:7 clearly states Yeshua's Father is "YHWH". Therefore, it is incumbent upon YOU to prove someone other than the Father is YHWH. Also, since you agreed there is only one Yahweh, that forces you to believe the Son is the Father. Try proving that as well.

No, now you're committing the fallacy of reversing the burden of proof. You have made the claim that YHWH is always the Father. It is up to you to prove that that is actually the case. Claiming it to be so is not proof.

 

[jocor]

Those who listen and learn from the Father go to the Son and HE will raise them up on the last day. That is Gods will. Jesus must then have all He needs to raise us up on the last day. All the fulness of God indwells Him.

The Father -The One True God, as Jesus stated, is the One who gave Jesus, (His Firstborn-as Paul wrote), HIS Fullness. The scripture truthfully depicts, (and cannot be broken), what the Father stated about His Son . The writer of Hebrews took pain to show this to future generations for understanding that the name Jesus inherited is far above even the angels of God. About the Son...when the firstborn comes into the world...

Jesus is the image of the invisible God and the exact representation of Gods being. ALL the treasures of wisdom and knowledge are hidden in Him. Yes -Mighty God in that context. No-He is not God as He is and always has been Gods Son. And as hebrews also states the creation was made through Him.

I agree with everything above except "Mighty God"; better translated "mighty warrior" so as not to contradict monotheism. The Father is God, the Son is the Son of God.

 

[jocor]

jocor said: ↑
What Scripture shows the Father and Son are not two separate beings?

All the passages that state there is only one God. Monotheism is a foundational truth of Christianity.

Monotheism states there is only one true Elohim. One being is the one true Elohim. All other beings are separate from the one true Elohim and are not the one true Elohim; not even Yeshua (John 17:3).

Is this diagram not a true representation of the trinity?

Yes, it is.

In post #996, you wrote, "The Father and the Son are not two separate beings nor are they two separate Gods." Doesn't this statement contradict the above representation of the trinity? Or do you not believe the trinity doctrine? Serious questions. I do not understand which position you are defending.

The whole point of John's prologue is to introduce us to just who the Son is--he preexisted with the Father, and not only this is carried throughout his gospel, but is, as I have stated, in perfect agreement with a few of Paul's statements about who Jesus is as well.

The purpose of the prologue was to show how the Son came to exist as flesh.

Notice also John 17:4-5, "4 I glorified you on earth, having accomplished the work that you gave me to do. 5 And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed." (ESV)

Jesus uses a personal pronoun when speaking of the glory he had with the Father before the world existed.

I believe that to be the glory he had in Yahweh's plan of salvation which existed before the world existed. Yeshua is said to be the Lamb which was slain from the foundation of the world (Revelation 13:8), yet we have the Bible also saying, "Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself." (Hebrews 9:25-26) Clearly, the Hebrews passage states that Yeshua was not literally slain from the foundation of the world, but rather was slain in the mind or plan of Almighty Yahweh. This word or plan of Yahweh existed throughout the ions of time. From the beginning of time, Yahweh had Yeshua's sacrifice in His plan for all humankind. For it was through Yeshua that we would receive our justification (Romans 4:25). 1 Peter 1:18-20 continues to explain this by saying:

Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you.​

Notice the use of the word "foreordained". Yeshua was foreordained from the foundation of the world, but was made manifest or revealed in these last times. He did not exist as a person or being in former times, but in these last times Yahweh allowed him to be born of a woman (Galatians 4:4) and speaks through him (Hebrews 1:1-2).

The glory that Yeshua had was as the slain lamb of Yahweh, in the mind of Yahweh, and Yeshua was praying for that glory to be brought about literally, so as to give unto all those who would accept, eternal life. This is why Yeshua began in John 17:1-2 by saying, "These words spake Yeshua, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, 'Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.' " Yeshua wanted to bring about the fruition of eternal life by Yahweh glorifying him as the ultimate sacrifice, and Yeshua in turn glorifying the Father.

Also Isaiah 9:6, "For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace." (ESV)

It is worth noting that "to us a child is born" but that it is "to us a son is given."

All these passages agree and are consistent with the idea that the Son has always existed, just as the Father has.

Nehemiah 9:27 says Yahweh "gave them saviors" ("them" being Israel). Does that mean those saviors have always existed?

No, now you're committing the fallacy of reversing the burden of proof. You have made the claim that YHWH is always the Father. It is up to you to prove that that is actually the case. Claiming it to be so is not proof.

In post #994, you wrote, "You are assuming the very thing you conclude, namely, that Yahweh is only the Father." Those were your words as you wrongly assumed what I was concluding. I gave you Isa 44:24 simply to show that Yahweh created alone. There could not have been two Creators working together. I then gave you Psalm 2:7 to show that Yeshua's Father is called Yahweh. Can you show me where the Father is not Yahweh? I also gave you several verses showing there is only one Yahweh to which you agreed. If the Son is also Yahweh, then we have two Yahweh's.


Edited for formatting only (one wrong bracket used in quote function prior to Trinity diagram). Free

 

[Jim Parker]

Hebrews 9:14;

"How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God"!

Is this the Trinity all in one sentence?

Not quite.

It does not say anything about who Christ is. For Christ to be defined as the One God we go to John 1:1.

And it does not state that the spirit is a "person" (hypostasis) of God. For that we can go to Acts 5 where Ananias is told by Peter that he had lied to the Holy Spirit Who is God.

my 2 kopecks
iakov the fool

 

[Jim Parker]

jocor said: ↑
What Scripture shows the Father and Son are not two separate beings?

Monotheism states there is only one true Elohim. One being is the one true Elohim. All other beings are separate from the one true Elohim and are not the one true Elohim; not even Yeshua (John 17:3).

{QUOTE=jocor]Is this diagram not a true representation of the trinity?

John 1:1 specifically states that the word (who became flesh as Jesus; v. 14) is God.

And Elohim is only one of the many names for the One True God.

If Jesus isn't God then no one can be saved.

iakov the fool

 

[Randy]

I agree with everything above except "Mighty God"; better translated "mighty warrior" so as not to contradict monotheism. The Father is God, the Son is the Son of God.

Ok but Jesus is all that the Father is. That makes Him God in that context. There can be many mighty warriors but only one Christ the Lord. Heaven and earth move at the command of the Son of the most High God. Besides it was and is the Father who glorifies the Son. And in that the Father is glorified as the Son will bring glory to the Father.

Rev:
Then I looked and heard the voice of many angels, numbering thousands upon thousands, and ten thousand times ten thousand. They encircled the throne and the living creatures and the elders. 12In a loud voice they were saying:

“Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain,

to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength

and honor and glory and praise!”

13Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, saying:

“To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb

be praise and honor and glory and power,

for ever and ever!”

14The four living creatures said, “Amen,” and the elders fell down and worshiped.

 

[Free]

I had to edit your post, jocor. One wrong bracket and a couple of missed end quote functions caused everything after the Trinity diagram to look as though it was quoted by me, which then doesn't show up when I quote your post for reply. Not one word was changed, just formatting.

jocor said: ↑
What Scripture shows the Father and Son are not two separate beings?

Monotheism states there is only one true Elohim. One being is the one true Elohim. All other beings are separate from the one true Elohim and are not the one true Elohim; not even Yeshua (John 17:3).

To quote that verse as though it means Jesus cannot be God, is to take it out of context from the rest of Scripture. One verse does not a doctrine make.

Is this diagram not a true representation of the trinity?

View attachment 7657

Yes, it is.

In post #996, you wrote, "The Father and the Son are not two separate beings nor are they two separate Gods." Doesn't this statement contradict the above representation of the trinity? Or do you not believe the trinity doctrine? Serious questions. I do not understand which position you are defending.

I think you are misunderstanding the diagram as it supports what I've been saying. One being that is God (in the center; monotheism), consisting of three separate ("Is Not"), coequal ("Is"), coeternal ("Is") "Persons" ("The Father"; "The Son"; "The Holy Spirit"). Not three Gods; not three Persons.

The purpose of the prologue was to show how the Son came to exist as flesh.

In saying "the Word was God," John is stating whom the Word is. His whole focus in the prologue is the Word who then becomes flesh, which Paul gives us some insight into in Phil 2:5-8. Those two passages are in perfect agreement on this.

I believe that to be the glory he had in Yahweh's plan of salvation which existed before the world existed. Yeshua is said to be the Lamb which was slain from the foundation of the world (Revelation 13:8), yet we have the Bible also saying, "Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself." (Hebrews 9:25-26) Clearly, the Hebrews passage states that Yeshua was not literally slain from the foundation of the world, but rather was slain in the mind or plan of Almighty Yahweh. This word or plan of Yahweh existed throughout the ions of time. From the beginning of time, Yahweh had Yeshua's sacrifice in His plan for all humankind. For it was through Yeshua that we would receive our justification (Romans 4:25). 1 Peter 1:18-20 continues to explain this by saying:

Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you.​

Notice the use of the word "foreordained". Yeshua was foreordained from the foundation of the world, but was made manifest or revealed in these last times. He did not exist as a person or being in former times, but in these last times Yahweh allowed him to be born of a woman (Galatians 4:4) and speaks through him (Hebrews 1:1-2).

The glory that Yeshua had was as the slain lamb of Yahweh, in the mind of Yahweh, and Yeshua was praying for that glory to be brought about literally, so as to give unto all those who would accept, eternal life. This is why Yeshua began in John 17:1-2 by saying, "These words spake Yeshua, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, 'Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.' " Yeshua wanted to bring about the fruition of eternal life by Yahweh glorifying him as the ultimate sacrifice, and Yeshua in turn glorifying the Father.

A plain reading of John 17:4,5, which is what we need to be doing, shows us that Jesus was speaking literally of himself. There is no reason to invoke the idea that Jesus is speaking merely of "the glory he had in Yahweh's plan of salvation which existed before the world existed" as some sort of thought within the Father's mind. That idea is not found anywhere in Scripture and is foreign to the context. Indeed, it really makes no sense of what Jesus actually says; there is no reason to believe that Jesus wasn't speaking literally.

All those passages about "before the foundation of the world," do nothing to support whether or not Jesus has always existed, although they do make more sense if he has always existed.

Nehemiah 9:27 says Yahweh "gave them saviors" ("them" being Israel). Does that mean those saviors have always existed?

Of course not, but context is important, yes? Isaiah 9:6 is speaking of a specific person, an especially unique person, the messiah, where both “child” and “son” are used.

In post #994, you wrote, "You are assuming the very thing you conclude, namely, that Yahweh is only the Father." Those were your words as you wrongly assumed what I was concluding. I gave you Isa 44:24 simply to show that Yahweh created alone. There could not have been two Creators working together.

My reply was because you stated: "There is only one Creator who created everything by Himself, Father Yahweh," and then gave Isaiah 44:24 in support. But that begs the question because you're assuming that Yahweh is the Father's name, that the Father alone is Yahweh, and then come to that conclusion. But that verse says no such thing--it simply mentions Yahweh and nothing about his nature.

I then gave you Psalm 2:7 to show that Yeshua's Father is called Yahweh.

To which I replied that it does nothing to prove nor disprove the eternal preexistence of the Son; at most it speaks of his Incarnation.

Can you show me where the Father is not Yahweh?

I can't support a claim I neither made nor agree with.

I also gave you several verses showing there is only one Yahweh to which you agreed. If the Son is also Yahweh, then we have two Yahweh's.

No. This is what the doctrine of the Trinity attempts to reconcile: the biblical truth that there is, was, and only ever will be one God; that the Father is said to be God, the Son is said to be God, and the Holy Spirit is implied to be God.

 

[Free]

If Jesus isn't God then no one can be saved.

This, I agree with. I have stated such before in these forums.

 

[Jim Parker]

jocor said: ↑
What Scripture shows the Father and Son are not two separate beings?

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 10:30 I and My Father are one.

There is only one God who has revealed Himself as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

iakov the fool

 

[jocor]

If Jesus isn't God then no one can be saved.

Yeshua did not need to be God in order to save the world. John 3:16-18 says the "Son of God" would save the world, not God Himself. The only requirements necessary to be the Savior was 1) to be a flesh and blood descendent of David 2) to be a sinless human 3) to be a male. Show me one verse where it says only God could die to save the world. Impossible since "God" cannot die.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Yeshua did not need to be God in order to save the world. John 3:16-18 says the "Son of God" would save the world, not God Himself. The only requirements necessary to be the Savior was 1) to be a flesh and blood descendent of David 2) to be a sinless human 3) to be a male. Show me one verse where it says only God could die to save the world. Impossible since "God" cannot die.

Isaiah (:6;
"For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called wonderful counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace".

 

[jocor]

I think you are misunderstanding the diagram as it supports what I've been saying. One being that is God (in the center; monotheism), consisting of three separate ("Is Not"), coequal ("Is"), coeternal ("Is") "Persons" ("The Father"; "The Son"; "The Holy Spirit"). Not three Gods; not three Persons.

I agree that the diagram states this. It teaches the Son and the Father ARE separate ("Is Not"). However, you said, "The Father and the Son are not two separate beings ..." I'm trying to harmonize that statement with the diagram.

My reply was because you stated: "There is only one Creator who created everything by Himself, Father Yahweh," and then gave Isaiah 44:24 in support. But that begs the question because you're assuming that Yahweh is the Father's name, that the Father alone is Yahweh, and then come to that conclusion. But that verse says no such thing--it simply mentions Yahweh and nothing about his nature.

It is not an assumption to believe "Yahweh is the Father's name". That is a Scriptural fact (Psalm 2:7).
It is not an assumption to say "the Father alone is Yahweh". "That men may know that thou, whose name alone is Yahweh, art the most high over all the earth" ( Ps.83:18 ). This verse, as well as several others, says there is only one Yahweh. Since Psalm 2:7 says the Father is Yahweh, then the Father is Yahweh alone.

No. This is what the doctrine of the Trinity attempts to reconcile: the biblical truth that there is, was, and only ever will be one God; that the Father is said to be God, the Son is said to be God, and the Holy Spirit is implied to be God.

The Son is said to be "God" only in English translations. The Hebrew word "elohim" cannot be translated "God" (capital G) when referring to the Son. Yeshua's Father, Yahweh, is the only true Elohim (God).

"I am Yahweh, and there is none else, there is no Elohim beside me:" Isa 45:5a​

 

[jocor]

John 10:30 I and My Father are one.

Yeshua said something similar in Jn.17:22, "And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:"

Here again, Yeshua says he and the Father are one, but he also prays that his followers will be one in the same sense that he and Yahweh are one. That is a oneness of mind, purpose, and will, not a oneness of being.

 

[jocor]

Isaiah (:6;
"For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called wonderful counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace".

How did this "Mighty God" (wrong translation) die if God is omnipotent, eternal and has inherent immortality?

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

How did this "Mighty God" (wrong translation) die if God is omnipotent, eternal and has inherent immortality?

1. People always use the (wrong translation) as their number one defense.
2. I don't know how he did it, he's God, he can do whatever he wants. Or don't you want to believe that?

 

[jocor]

1. People always use the (wrong translation) as their number one defense.

If the Son is the Mighty God and the Father is the Mighty God, then you have two Gods, especially since the Father is the Son's God. Since that cannot be, the "Mighty God" of Isa 9:6 must be translated differently. I suggest "Mighty Warrior".

2. I don't know how he did it, he's God, he can do whatever he wants. Or don't you want to believe that?

Yes, the "only true God" that Yeshua referred to in John 17:3 can do whatever He wants, but the Son could not (John 5:19).

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

If the Son is the Mighty God and the Father is the Mighty God, then you have two Gods, especially since the Father is the Son's God. Since that cannot be, the "Mighty God" of Isa 9:6 must be translated differently. I suggest "Mighty Warrior".

Yes, the "only true God" that Yeshua referred to in John 17:3 can do whatever He wants, but the Son could not (John 5:19).

Why is it so important for you to understand something you obviously don"t?

 

[jocor]

Why is it so important for you to understand something you obviously don"t?