Proving pre-trib rapture is false, along with a question.

[JLB]

I am bowing out of this debate.Bye.... I am going to try and keep my end time views to myself in the future.I think I am the only one on this messageboard who is pre-trib.It is just frustating.

Please discuss the what the scriptures actually say, Kathi.

It's a discussion.

Start with one post and scripture and let's discuss it.



JLB

 

[Eugene]

DRS81 - When I refer to the word 'rapture', I'm referring to (us the saints) being brought up in the air to meet Jesus in 1 Thess 4 and 1 Cor 15 at the second coming. There is only one rapture of (the catching up of us the saints in the second coming). Sorry, I should of been clearer on that. Also..
Eugene – Even though John sees different saints in heaven with Jesus before the tribulation, do you believe they don’t arrive there until the last trump? or the last day? I just don’t see it that way because them standing in proximity of God’s throne means that they were caught up to heaven.

DRS81- (1) Mat 27:52 is not a rapture scripture. It's simply letting people know that the Lord has control over life and death.
(2) Rev 4:1 is actually a vision given to John. Some mistake this as a rapture scripture, but it's not. It's simply a vision. The vision given to John was about the great tribulation in Rev 6-18.
(3) Rev 12:5 is speaking about a more glorious advance of the church, or a rise to some more glorious state and condition, and not a rapture scripture.
Eugene – I can’t honestly say I’m sorry I do not agree with this, but I’d have to say it will not matter when we’re in our Savior’s presence face to face.

God bless you Brother DRS81 in the blessed name of Jesus.

 

[Eugene]

I am bowing out of this debate.Bye.... I am going to try and keep my end time views to myself in the future.I think I am the only one on this messageboard who is pre-trib.It is just frustating.

Hey Sister Kathi, I am pre-trib concerning the bride of Christ before the tribulation. Concerning the great multitude of Revelation Chapter Seven, John sees then before the throne after coming out of tribulation.

 

[n2thelight]

The rapture is imminent.Nothing more needs to happen for it to occur.It could happen in the next second,next minute anytime.We will not witness the 7 year tribulation.

Kathi,at what point in time did the rapture become imminent?

 

[n2thelight]

DRS81 - When I refer to the word 'rapture', I'm referring to (us the saints) being brought up in the air to meet Jesus in 1 Thess 4 and 1 Cor 15 at the second coming. There is only one rapture of (the catching up of us the saints in the second coming). Sorry, I should of been clearer on that. Also..
Eugene – Even though John sees different saints in heaven with Jesus before the tribulation, do you believe they don’t arrive there until the last trump? or the last day? I just don’t see it that way because them standing in proximity of God’s throne means that they were caught up to heaven.

DRS81- (1) Mat 27:52 is not a rapture scripture. It's simply letting people know that the Lord has control over life and death.
(2) Rev 4:1 is actually a vision given to John. Some mistake this as a rapture scripture, but it's not. It's simply a vision. The vision given to John was about the great tribulation in Rev 6-18.
(3) Rev 12:5 is speaking about a more glorious advance of the church, or a rise to some more glorious state and condition, and not a rapture scripture.
Eugene – I can’t honestly say I’m sorry I do not agree with this, but I’d have to say it will not matter when we’re in our Savior’s presence face to face.

God bless you Brother DRS81 in the blessed name of Jesus.

Those who are in Heaven now,are those who have died,and returned to the Father,these are those He shall bring with Him at His 2nd coming...That's why the living can't precede those who have died,because those who went to sleep(died)are already there,with Him....

At death, all instantly return to the Father,the only question is,on which side of the gulf.....

 

[Northman]

I think I am the only one on this messageboard who is pre-trib.

You arent.

 

[John S]

What do you mean, what is incorrect.

That the antichrist only shows up halfway through the Tribulation. He is there from the very beginning.

 

[Edward]

Sheesh the world is truly coming to the end... reba agrees with Edward...

Yep, that has to mean something! But hey, did you catch my mistake? It's there, I realized it later. David was not shaking in his boots, he ran towards Goliath! He had no fear, he knew the Lord would deliver Goliath into his hand and he told him so!

Fear is a lack of faith. Praise the Lord for one step towards unity within the body.

 

[Edward]

Matthew 13:30
30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn./

What are we to do with this scripture if there is a pre trib rapture? This is Jesus talking and note how specific He is, He says...at the time of harvest...

I want to believe in a pre-trib. I did very vehemently for a long time. But the truth is the truth. Sometimes our desire to want a specific thing to be true can blind us to the real truth. Being able to set aside ones pre-conceived notions to take a second honest look is a wonderfully valuable skill.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

I am bowing out of this debate.Bye.... I am going to try and keep my end time views to myself in the future.I think I am the only one on this messageboard who is pre-trib.It is just frustating.

If your desire is simply to believe whatever makes you feel good, then this is a good plan. Hide your beliefs from others and don't let them know. This is a good way to never learn the truth of what Scripture teaches.

Just some passing thoughts.

 

[John S]

Matthew 13:30
30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn./

What are we to do with this scripture if there is a pre trib rapture? This is Jesus talking and note how specific He is, He says...at the time of harvest...

I want to believe in a pre-trib. I did very vehemently for a long time. But the truth is the truth. Sometimes our desire to want a specific thing to be true can blind us to the real truth. Being able to set aside ones pre-conceived notions to take a second honest look is a wonderfully valuable skill.

Congratulations on seeing the truth that the Pre-Trib Rapture will not be happening.

 

[Edward]

Thank you brother. I used to fear the great trib, big brother and all that, but not now. We have the Almighty God on our side and He will not forsake us.

 

[DRS81]

DRS81Eugene – Even though John sees different saints in heaven with Jesus before the tribulation, do you believe they don’t arrive there until the last trump? or the last day? I just don’t see it that way because them standing in proximity of God’s throne means that they were caught up to heaven.

Hi Eugene. I still haven't seen any scripture proving pre-trib rapture of (us the church) is true. I guess what I'm trying to say is the difference between the "raptures" (before tribulation) and the rapture at (his second coming)..............is us. Face to face is a good place to be.

That the antichrist only shows up halfway through the Tribulation. He is there from the very beginning.

The Bible describes the Antichrist in two different forms, (spirit and body). Yes, the spirit of the Antichrist has always been on earth, but (his spirit) will also take the form of (a body) and allow himself to be known through the peace treaty halfway thru the trib in Dan 9:27. The Antichrist in Dan 9:27 will have arms, legs, chest, face, the whole deal, and he will also deceive many with his charm.

 

[Eugene]

If all the following events occur at the last day, which nations is Thyatira going to have power over? I hope everyone is aware that Thyatira is a part of the body of Christ.

Rev 2:18 And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira
Rev 2:20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee
Rev 2:21 I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. What's this? There's the possibility of escaping great tribulation?
Rev 2:23 And I will kill her children with death
Rev 2:25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.
Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

Does this all sound familiar with the instruction in Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

 

[Eugene]

Thank you brother. I used to fear the great trib, big brother and all that, but not now. We have the Almighty God on our side and He will not forsake us.

Welcome to hell on earth as the cliché goes huh? Aw, no problem brother:
Rev 9:4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

 

[John S]

Hi Eugene. I still haven't seen any scripture proving pre-trib rapture of (us the church) is true. I guess what I'm trying to say is the difference between the "raptures" (before tribulation) and the rapture at (his second coming)..............is us. Face to face is a good place to be.



The Bible describes the Antichrist in two different forms, (spirit and body). Yes, the spirit of the Antichrist has always been on earth, but (his spirit) will also take the form of (a body) and allow himself to be known through the peace treaty halfway thru the trib in Dan 9:27. The Antichrist in Dan 9:27 will have arms, legs, chest, face, the whole deal, and he will also deceive many with his charm.

I was NOT talking about a spiritual antichrist. I was talking about a man
That peace treaty will occur at the beginning of the Tribulation as will every other peace treaty that he makes between all of the other countries with problems, like the Koreas, etc. He will solve all of the world's problems.
YES - He will deceive MANY because he will be "normal". Everything about the Tribulation will be normal. He will be the "good guy". THAT is the deception.
Today is a normal day. Tomorrow (figurative) the tribulation begins. The sun will shine on both days. Nothing will be any different. That is why the Pre-Trib Rapture doctrine is so dangerous. Many people have already been deceived and the Tribulation hasn't even occurred yet.
"So and so is NOT the antichrist because I am still here. So and so is NOT the antichrist because God PROMISED us that we would be gone when the antichrist arrived. Therefore, so and so is NOT the antichrist.
I will agree that a change will occur halfway through when he is assassinated and then is resurrected 3 days later, just like Jesus Christ, and then proclaims himself to be god.

 

[DRS81]

If all the following events occur at the last day, which nations is Thyatira going to have power over? I hope everyone is aware that Thyatira is a part of the body of Christ.

Rev 2:18 And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira
Rev 2:20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee
Rev 2:21 I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. What's this? There's the possibility of escaping great tribulation?
Rev 2:23 And I will kill her children with death
Rev 2:25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.
Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

Does this all sound familiar with the instruction in Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

I don't see the relation. What does this have to do with pre-trib rapture.

 

[DRS81]

I was NOT talking about a spiritual antichrist. I was talking about a man
That peace treaty will occur at the beginning of the Tribulation

Hi John S. I agree pre-trib is false.

The peace treaty will occur at the middle of tribulation, not the beginning. Are you knowledgeable with Jubilee Calender math. You do understand that in Daniel 9:27, that a week is referring to seven years?

 

[Doulos Iesou]

If all the following events occur at the last day, which nations is Thyatira going to have power over? I hope everyone is aware that Thyatira is a part of the body of Christ.

Rev 2:18 And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira
Rev 2:20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee
Rev 2:21 I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. What's this? There's the possibility of escaping great tribulation?
Rev 2:23 And I will kill her children with death
Rev 2:25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.
Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

Does this all sound familiar with the instruction in Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

You're confusing the Greek term "θλίψιν μεγάλην" (great tribulation) with The Great Tribulation, which is simply a way that we refer to the period of 7 years before Christ's coming. This text in no way depicts people escaping the tribulation through repentance.

 

[Kathi]

Hi John S. I agree pre-trib is false.

The peace treaty will occur at the middle of tribulation, not the beginning. Are you knowledgeable with Jubilee Calender math. You do understand that in Daniel 9:27, that a week is referring to seven years?

OH BOY....I am sorry for my false claim.I thought you were Pre-trib and I made a big deal about it.