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Purgatory

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Fran. I was only nine years old and very impresionable at the time. Have you ever thought that because of ignorance of the Bible that many Catholic's becoome what we use to call lapse Catholic's? I do admit that many other Christians are also luke-warm if not dead and many in other churches are going to hell as a result of no desire to see what the truth is. I just made a statement about my experience. And I don't need to read a cathecuism to study the Bible. Even implied doctrines are very dangerous, especially to a child.



May God bless, Golfjack
 
Re: reply

golfjack said:
Fran. I was only nine years old and very impresionable at the time.


OK, then I apologize.


golfjack said:
Have you ever thought that because of ignorance of the Bible that many Catholic's becoome what we use to call lapse Catholic's?

No. I don't think it is lack of knowledge of the Scriptures, because MANY Catholics over 2000 years were illiterate and didn't have concordances and commentaries to enable them to pore over the Scriptures and come up with their own explanations. Certainly, you are aware, for example, that many Medieval Catholics were solid in their faith because of stain glass windows that taught the stories of salvation to the people.

Honestly, golfjack, I wish I had the answer to why people are nominal Christians. I do not believe it is the Bible or lack of Bible reading, because you have to be motivated IN THE FIRST PLACE to read it! You are placing the cart before the horse.

No, it is our society and the temptation it places on people. Our culture is built upon money and owning things. Sacrifice is unheard of. And follow an authoritative group of men, even if instituted by God Himself? Not today. It is much easier to have your own opinion and do what you feel like, rather than be obedient to others as Scriptures teach us. I know because I speak from personal experience. I fell away from ANY Church for 20 years, and it wasn't because of lack of Bible knowledge! It was the pull of the world. Only when I matured did I realize that there was something out there bigger than me and no matter what I did, I was subject to It.

Now, I think the Church is responding positively to the lay people. Now, we hear a slightly different message, one we should have heard more often as kids...

In the slightly changed words of President Kennedy, "ask not what your church can do for you, but what you can do for your church".

This calling is now being resounded from the sermons - the call to fulfill one's baptismal promises. This is something that was much less heard (although touted, not taught very well by the priests and nuns of the 1950's) until now.

It is too bad you left the Catholic Church, because I think she is really closer to her roots then she has been in over 1000 years...

As to the Catechism, it is based upon the Bible and how Christians had interpreted it for centuries.

Regards
 
jgredline said:
BC
OK, I understand that there are many who are challenging your views. I have been where you are in that I have found myself debating 6 on one before as well, so I do understand....I will post my thoughts and if you feel you can challenge them, then have at....If not I would have expressed what the bible says and teaches for those who are following along.....

I will post up the two scriptures I used earlier, where you offered very brief commentary....I also accused you of saying that you implied Jesus Lied...I was wrong, although I did not know it at the time and ask you for forgiveness...Let me now explain...as I was studying these verses this morning.

Luke 23:43 And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.†NKJV

Luke 23:43 και ειπεν αυτω ο ιησους αμην λεγω σοι σημερον μετ εμου εση εν τω παραδεισω 1550TR
apology accepted. sorry that sometimes that this protestant/catholic thing gets heated on the things we disagree on i know that both sides are doing it out of wanting to correct and help the other...


jgredline said:
I want to point out something in particular here...When I am wrong I am wrong and will correct myself as pride has no place in teaching the word of God.....The way that this passage is written in the Greek, the word today is written and placed in the the ''future'' tense....There are two definite articles in the verse, but one refers to Jesus as being the speaker and the other to the thief as being the recipient of eternal life.....this however does not take away from the fact that no place in this discourse purgatory is mentioned....or implied..Now I will have some food....and go to work on Romans chapter 3

sheol was the place where at least 1 righteous dead person went.abraham. while elijah, and elisha went to heaven. so just because you're righteous doesn't mean you go heaven without geting cleaned off. remember that we accept Christ. then we sin. when we sin we deny Him whom we sin against. we deny God ,when we know Him. we damage our relationship with God when we sin. He still saves us if we finish the race(mt10:22,mt35:13). to have real "fused" righteousness we must not separate sanctification from justification. we must cooperate in the process, we mess up enough to make purgatory necessary in most cases.

st paul made it clear that good works are necessary for eternal life right before romans 3 in romans 2:6-11. in rome at the time the heresey of the judiazers was on his mind too. so when he says we're justified apart from the law he is talking (about) the judiazers .the judiazers were attempting to be justified outside of Christ so in romans 3:28 if you look at the context you know he is not saying works arent necessary. he specified works of the lawbecause that heresey was saying that without those works of the law one could not be saved. they were talking about levitical law and circumcision. the ONLY verse in the bible where faith and alone are together is james 2:20
You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
 
Solo said:
Read Luke 16 and you will be able to understand that Sheol/Hades is the place for the souls of men who have died and their bodies were placed in the grave.

There are two places in Sheol/Hades according to Jesus. One place is for the unrighteous dead, and the other place is for the righteous dead. They have already been judged for their destiny of eternal life or everlasting punishment.

When Jesus told the thief on the cross that he would be with Him in paradise today, he was speaking of the place in Sheol/Hades where the righteous souls went after the body died. Notice that the place where the unrighteous souls went was a place of torment. The place where the righteous souls went was not a place of torment, but was called paradise. After Jesus' resurrection, paradise was taken from Sheol/Hades and rose to heaven.
  • And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. Luke 23:43

    How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. 2 Corinthians 12:4

    He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God. Revelation 2:7
The commandment of God is to believe so that one can be a born of God creation to accomplish the works of God as born again believers are the workmanship of Christ Jesus.
  • 44 Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me. 45 And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me. 46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness. 47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. 48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. 49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. 50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak. John 12:44-50
i agree with you on the difference w between sheol and hades but no where does it say that sheol was incoropated or dissapeared. it talks about some leaving and rising up to heaven.
 
biblecatholic said:
i agree with you on the difference w between sheol and hades but no where does it say that sheol was incoropated or dissapeared. it talks about some leaving and rising up to heaven.
Sheol and Hades is the same place. Paradise was at one time in Sheol/Hades. Paradise is now in heaven.
 
jgredline said:
Pope revises 'limbo' for babies

By NICOLE WINFIELD, Associated Press Writer 1 hour, 2 minutes ago

VATICAN CITY -
Pope Benedict XVI has revised traditional Roman Catholic teaching on so-called "limbo," approving a church report released Friday that said there was reason to hope that babies who die without baptism can go to heaven.

limbo is not and was not a dogma. there was debate and has been for centuries on babies who have not been baptized into the new covenant(Gods family). since it does not say in the Word of God written/oral that people who are before the age of reason if they will be excused or condemned. there is no dogma. many understand the Mercy of God and assume that He will welcome them( i do) but since they're born into original sin and no baptism,(professing Jesus as Lord) we have no definitive answer
 
Re: reply

golfjack said:
The subject matter here is purgatory. There is more here than meets the eye. Some Ex Catholic's here may remember what I am about to say.

I am going top make a statement here that could possibly be deleted, but will say it anyway. My Father passed away about 4 years, and I had to repent for compromising the Word of God. By not telling him the Truth, he could have gone to hell. My Mother still purchases Mass cards to bring him out of purgatory. Can you feel my pain? Therefore, Catholic Thelogy is responsible for sending countless millions to hell. To me, God's business is very serious, and not to be taken lightly. The doctrine of purgatory is one of many false doctrines that the devil has bound up the Catholic Church for centuries. Please, please, you Catholic's out there come out of that Church and make Jesus Christ your personal Lord and Savior, and not just have an intellectual reception of Christ. And I don't believe you have that much time, as I believe Christ will come back in our life time. Get out of the grips of the Catholic Church.


Golfjack, i understand that your tradition reads into the scriptures in the way that do. i accept that. i understand that you think of the church as the "whore of babaloyn". i wish you didnt but you do. all i can do is share the gospel in the way that the apostles passed down(matt28:20). you need to be sure to tell people what we teach. go to the catechism(and dont take it out of context)disagree as much as you like but please atleast be accurate especially if you're responsible for others.
may God have mercy on you
 
biblecatholic said:
limbo is not and was not a dogma. there was debate and has been for centuries on babies who have not been baptized into the new covenant(Gods family). since it does not say in the Word of God written/oral that people who are before the age of reason if they will be excused or condemned. there is no dogma. many understand the Mercy of God and assume that He will welcome them( i do) but since they're born into original sin and no baptism,(professing Jesus as Lord) we have no definitive answer
You too are correct.
 
principle 1)2 sam 12:13-18 Then David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against the LORD." Nathan replied, "The LORD has taken away your sin. You are not going to die. 14 But because by doing this you have made the enemies of the LORD show utter contempt, the son born to you will die."
15 After Nathan had gone home, the LORD struck the child that Uriah's wife had borne to David, and he became ill. 16 David pleaded with God for the child. He fasted and went into his house and spent the nights lying on the ground. 17 The elders of his household stood beside him to get him up from the ground, but he refused, and he would not eat any food with them.
18 On the seventh day the child died. David's servants were afraid to tell him that the child was dead, for they thought, "While the child was still living, we spoke to David but he would not listen to us. How can we tell him the child is dead? He may do something desperate."
there is punishment for sin even after one has recieved forgiveness

priniple 2) rev 21:27 Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.

matt 5:48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect[/b]
because of princible 2, nothing unclean can be enter heaven.

principle 3 heb 12:22-23 But you have come to Mount Zion, to the heavenly Jerusalem, the city of the living God. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, 23to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the judge of all men, to the spirits of righteous men made perfect,
.......a way a procecess for just men to be made perfect

princible 4 1 cor 13:13-15 his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. 14If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.


is this judgement day. Where is this ....hell, no..... heaven, no......purgatory only possibility

matt 12:32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

matt 18:32-35 Then the master called the servant in. 'You wicked servant,' he said, 'I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. 33Shouldn't you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?' 34In anger his master turned him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed. 35"This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart."
where can he go to pay all His debt where can you go ....puragtory

principlr 5 james 5:20 remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save him from death and will cover over a multitude of sins.
make no sense without purgatory " cover a multitude of sins"
we can cover sin.. Suffer loss but be saved, but you don’t get out till you’ve paid you debt. (cleansing)
1 pet 4:8 Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins. again makes no sense without purgatory
 
biblecatholic said:
principle 1)2 sam 12:13-18 Then David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against the LORD." Nathan replied, "The LORD has taken away your sin. You are not going to die. 14 But because by doing this you have made the enemies of the LORD show utter contempt, the son born to you will die."
15 After Nathan had gone home, the LORD struck the child that Uriah's wife had borne to David, and he became ill. 16 David pleaded with God for the child. He fasted and went into his house and spent the nights lying on the ground. 17 The elders of his household stood beside him to get him up from the ground, but he refused, and he would not eat any food with them.
18 On the seventh day the child died. David's servants were afraid to tell him that the child was dead, for they thought, "While the child was still living, we spoke to David but he would not listen to us. How can we tell him the child is dead? He may do something desperate."
there is punishment for sin even after one has recieved forgiveness
There are consequences to sin. The example that you give is one of them. This consequence is received while in the physical realm prior to the resurrection of the corrupt, mortal flesh into the New Resurrected incorrupt, immortal body fit for heaven to be with God for eternity.

A consequence to the sin of murder could very well be the loss of life via the death penalty. A consequence to the sin of debauchry could be the loss of all financial security. A consequence to the sin of adultery could be the acquisiton of the incurable disease of HIV.

biblecatholic said:
priniple 2) rev 21:27 Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.

matt 5:48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect[/b]
because of princible 2, nothing unclean can be enter heaven.
All who die on this earth will have the following occur:
  • 1. They will have their body placed in the grave, tomb, or cremated; and
    2. Their spirit/soul will go to one of two places, according to Jesus Christ in Luke 16, to the place for the unrighteous souls in Sheol/Hades or the place for the righteous souls in paradise (now in heaven); and
    3. They await the resurrection of their physical body at the first resurrection where the body changes into a body that is perfect for heaven; or
    4. They await the second resurrection of their physical body to be thrown into the lake of fire with their spirit/soul.
The born again spirit/soul is the New Creature that does not sin, and the sinful flesh will be changed at the resurrection. There is no need for a place of cleansing, as Jesus has taken care of that.

biblecatholic said:
principle 3 heb 12:22-23 But you have come to Mount Zion, to the heavenly Jerusalem, the city of the living God. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, 23to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the judge of all men, to the spirits of righteous men made perfect,
.......a way a procecess for just men to be made perfect
Those who are born again are made perfect at the moment of the rebirth. The righteousness of Jesus Christ is imputed to them. The spirit/souls of those born again is born of God and cannot sin, and the flesh awaits the resurrection into the New Perfect Heaven-bound body.

biblecatholic said:
princible 4 1 cor 13:13-15 his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. 14If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.
The WORKS of the BELIEVER will tested for their quality; they will either burn up as wood, hay, and stubble and be gone, or they will remain untouched by the fire of trial, and a reward will be given; not of salvation, but of reward. Notice what Peter writes:
  • 17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? 18
    And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? 1 Peter 4:17-18
Judgment for rewards and level of placement in heaven will be judged for the righteous and godly for they are saved, but the ungodly and sinner will be judged with a fiery torment for eternity.
biblecatholic said:
is this judgement day. Where is this ....hell, no..... heaven, no......purgatory only possibility
The judgment of the righteous and godly will be in the Kingdom of God, and they will be given their rewards as their position in Jesus Christ has already been determined at their death.

biblecatholic said:
matt 12:32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

matt 18:32-35 Then the master called the servant in. 'You wicked servant,' he said, 'I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. 33Shouldn't you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?' 34In anger his master turned him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed. 35"This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart."
where can he go to pay all His debt where can you go ....puragtory
The ungodly will pay their debt in hell then the lake of fire. The godly will pay their debt through Jesus Christ's death on the cross.

biblecatholic said:
principlr 5 james 5:20 remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save him from death and will cover over a multitude of sins.
make no sense without purgatory " cover a multitude of sins"
we can cover sin.. Suffer loss but be saved, but you don’t get out till you’ve paid you debt. (cleansing)
1 pet 4:8 Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins. again makes no sense without purgatory
Jesus Christ has paid the debt for all of the sins of the believer, and this penalty has given each and every believer the promise that salvation comes at the moment of belief as we are sealed until the day of redemption by the Holy Spirit.



Note: I would have given Scriptures for your study, but I am out of town on a slow, slow connection with not much time.
 
Thank you Solo - very well said and appreciated.

It is good to be reminded of the wonderful work of Christ on the Cross and what it means in the life of a believer.

If I may, biblecatholic, I would ask that you read my brief post, and the good additions by others, on righteousness.
 
aLoneVoice said:
Thank you Solo - very well said and appreciated.

It is good to be reminded of the wonderful work of Christ on the Cross and what it means in the life of a believer.

If I may, biblecatholic, I would ask that you read my brief post, and the good additions by others, on righteousness.
Your are most welcome, and thank you for the encouragment.
 
Michael Great stuff :smt023

Hi Folks...
Here is an article by Norman Geisler on Martin Luther....Its a great read...

Martin Luther
Born in a.d. 1483, in Eisleben, Germany, of middle-class parents, Martin Luther entered the Augustinian monastery at Erfurt in 1505. The themes of salvation and damnationâ€â€which were central to the culture of the dayâ€â€concerned him greatly. Luther became aware of the presence of sin in his life and the ineffectiveness of the penance provided by the church to bring relief to this situation. In addition to penance, divine “grace†was dispensed by the church through the six other sacraments, the most important of these being, in addition to penance, baptism and the Eucharistic observance (Holy Communion).

Listen to Luther as years later he recalls his experience in the monastery:

I was a good monk and kept my order so strictly that I could claim that if ever a monk were able to reach heaven by monkish discipline I should have found my way there. All my fellows in the house, who know me, would bear me out in this. For if it had continued much longer I would, what with vigils, prayers, readings and other such works, have done myself to death.

A Dominican scholar recalls Luther’s word during this time of spiritual anguish: “I wanted to live so devoutly that I could appear before God and say: ‘here you have holiness.’ â€Â

In 1511 Luther was transferred from Erfurt to Wittenberg. He lived in the Augustinian cloister and was fortunate to have as his spiritual confessor a godly man who was also the vicar-general of the monastery: Johannes von Staupitz (1469–1524). Staupitz, aware of the intense spiritual struggles that enveloped his young charge, directed Luther to study Scripture. Luther was graduated Doctor of Theology on October 19, 1512, and commenced teaching theology and biblical studies at Wittenberg on August 16, 1513. It was in the context of his assignment at the university that Luther developed his initial ideas concerning justification by faith.

Luther had been influenced by nominalism, the form of theology and philosophy advocated by William of Ockham. It was known as the via moderna in contrast to Thomism and Scotism, which were called the via antiqua. Nominalism removed most of the data of faith from the realm of reason and was one of the antecedents of modern fideism.

Luther seems to have had little contact with the early Dominican school (which had Thomism as its theological rudder) and it is interesting to speculate on how exposure to the Augustinian core of Thomistic thought might have influenced his early spiritual and exegetical investigations.
The decisive role in the formulation of Luther’s theology was played by St. Paul and Augustinianism. It was shortly after his exegesis of Paul’s phrase in Romans 1:17, “the righteousness of God†(iustitia Dei in the Latin), that Luther stated that justification is a gift of God, appropriated by faith:
Now I felt as though I had been immediately born anew and had entered Paradise itself. From that moment the face of Scripture as a whole became clear to me. My mind ran through the sacred books, as far as I was able to recollect them, seeking analogies in other phrases, such as opus Dei, that which God works in us; virtus Dei, that by which God makes us strong; sapienta Dei, that by which he makes us wise; fortitudo Dei, salus Dei, gloria Deiâ€â€the strength, the salvation, the glory of God.

Luther’s understanding of God’s justice and grace had undergone a drastic change. He wrote: “Because God is almighty and rich in mercy and turns as such to me, I canâ€â€indeed, I mustâ€â€trust in him, I can and must be certain of my salvation in spite of my own sinfulness!â€Â

The beginning of Martin Luther’s problems with Rome has often been identified with his posting of the Ninety-five Theses on the eve of All Saints, October 31, 1517. These theses dealt with the doctrine of purgatory, the penitential system, papal authority, but primarily with the sale of indulgences. Pastoral concern prompted Luther to act. People who showed no signs of sincere repentance for their sins would come to him for confession. They would produce copies of indulgences that they had purchased and thought of them as licenses to sin without spiritual consequences. Luther declined to grant them absolution. With the public display of the Ninety-five Theses the die was cast; the Reformation began and Christendom changed forever.

Among the points raised in the Ninety-five Theses were the following:

1. A true Christian who is repentant has remission from both the guilt and penalty of sin because he participates in the benefits of Christ (theses 16–17).

2. A Christian has no need of letters of pardon and the purchase of such is wrong when it is clearly better to give the money to the poor (theses 41–45).

3. “The Pope can remit no guilt, but only declare and confirm that it has been remitted by God†(thesis 6).

4. Concerning the “treasury of the accumulated merits of the saints,†the “true treasure of the Church is the holy Gospel of the glory and the grace of God†(thesis 62).
In the Ninety-five Theses, Luther did not “challenge the doctrine of purgatory. He [did] not question the scriptural basis of the sacrament of penance. He [did] not demand the abolition of indulgences.†What he did was address the abuses of the doctrines that had become commonplace in the culture of his day.

Indicating how deeply his evangelical (Augustinian) principles influenced the theses, Luther was later to write:

And this is the confidence that Christians have and our real joy of conscience, that by faith our sins become no longer ours but Christ’s upon whom God placed the sins of all of us. He took upon himself our sins. . . . All the righteousness of Christ becomes ours. . . . He spreads his cloak and covers us.

Some reevaluation has been going on among contemporary Catholic theologians concerning Luther’s reaction to the state of the church in his day. For example, Louis Bouyer (who had been a Lutheran pastor before his conversion to Roman Catholicism) does not view Luther as a revolutionary, but as a truly spiritually sensitive pastor seeking to reform the church from within. Bouyer argues that the Lutheran doctrine of justification by faith alone is not a heresy but is consistent with Catholic tradition and in harmony with the teachings of Augustine, Anselm, and Aquinas. Other

Catholic theologians hold similar views.

Another quote from a modern Roman Catholic source is in order: “The irony of the Protestant Reformation is that much of what Luther believed and taught was authentic Catholic doctrine that had been distorted by abuses and incorrect practices in the Church, such as the mercenary selling of indulgences. Unfortunately, Luther’s criticism of real abuses was not heeded.â€Â
The Council of Trent (a.d. 1545–63) would, during the Counter-Reformation, address these same issues and provide needed reforms, such as banning the sale of indulgences. This was done to avoid the corrupt practices that had developed.

In addressing the similarities and differences of Augustinianism and Luther, the following may be stated.
First, Luther and Augustine both believed that iustitia Dei (righteousness of God) is a righteousness that is a gift from God to us, rather than the righteousness that God possesses in his own Person.
Second, Luther, following Augustine, did not make the distinction between forensic justification and progressive sanctification that would emerge in later Protestantism. Indeed, “It is important to note that Luther does not employ forensic [legal] terms to explain this imputation of alien righteousness. This development will come later, from others.â€Â
Third, Augustine and the medieval church had believed in a “theology of glory.†This is the result of natural theology and claims to know God through his works. Its antithesis is Luther’s “theology of the cross†concept, which elevates the cross as the most important place of encounter between God and man. There God is seen in weakness (1 Cor. 1:18–25) and suffering and our preconceived concepts of divine glory are shattered. Luther said:
That person does not deserve to be called a theologian who looks upon the invisible things of God as if it were clearly perceptible in those things in which have actually happened. He deserved to be called a theologian, however, who comprehends the visible and manifest things of God seen through suffering and the cross.

A contemporary orthodox Roman Catholic theologian comments on these two “paths†in Christology:

In the history of the Christian faith, two divergent lines of approach to the contemplation of Jesus have appeared again and again: the theology of the incarnation (glory), which sprang from Greek thought and became dominant in the Catholic tradition of East and West, and the theology of the cross, which based itself on St. Paul and the earliest forms of Christian belief and made a decisive break-through in the thinking of the Reformers.
Ratzinger goes on to develop these two themes and states that they are not contradictory but “must remain present as polarities which mutually correct each other and only by complementing each other point toward the whole.â€Â

Finally, Augustine never held the doctrine of “double†predestination. “This means an unconditional, eternal predestination both to salvation and to damnation.†Although Augustinianism might be said to imply logically such a concept, the bishop of Hippo never took that step and actually argued against it.

It seems clear tha in spite of significant differences in their systems, Luther and Augustine were united in their belief that man is spiritually destitute and, apart from God’s grace, is incapable of producing any semblance of spiritual merit. Luther was, indeed (at least concerning the basic tenets of justification), a spiritual son of the bishop of Hippo and of the “Doctor Angelicus.â€Â
Geisler, N. L.,
 
As I read about this purgatory, I can't help but think how silly this belief is...
I purchased this book on Catholicism by Norman Geisler and it it makes a lot of sense and he provides a ton of scripture...Here is a scan from the book.....It is only but a small part but rich......

Protestant Reasons for Rejecting Purgatory

Purgatory is a denial of the sufficiency of the cross. Protestants reject the doctrine of purgatory primarily because it in effect denies the all-sufficiency of Christ’s atoning death. Scripture teaches that when Christ died on the cross, he proclaimed, “It is finished†(John 19:30). Speaking of his work of salvation on earth, Jesus said to the Father, “I glorified you on earth by accomplishing the work that you gave me to do†(John 17:4). The writer of Hebrews declared emphatically that salvation by Christ’s suffering on the cross was a once-for-all accomplished fact. “For by one offering he has made perfect forever those who are being consecrated†(Heb. 10:14).

These verses demonstrate the completed, sufficient nature of the work of Christ. To affirm that we must suffer for our own sins is the ultimate insult to Christ’s atoning sacrifice! There is a purgatory, but it is not after our death; it was in Christ’s death. For “when he had accomplished purification from sins, he took his seat at the right hand of the Majesty on high†(Heb. 1:3, emphasis added). “Purification†or purging from our “sins†was “accomplished†(past tense) on the cross.

Thank God that this is the only purgatory we will ever have to suffer for our sins. Of course, hell awaits those who reject this marvelous provision of God’s grace (2 Thess. 1:5–9; Rev. 20:11–15). There are also temporal cause-effect relations in this life that what we sow, we reap (Gal. 6:8–9). There is, however, absolutely no evidence that we will have to pay for our sins in the next life, either eternally or temporally.

To argue, as Catholic scholars do, that purgatory is part of our experiential sanctification is to overlook two important points. First, all experiential sanctification occurs in this life before death (cf. 1 Cor. 3:10–13; 2 Cor. 5:10; Rev. 22:12). The only sanctification after death is actual. The Bible calls it glorification (Rom. 8:30; 1 John 3:2). Second, sanctification is not a process of paying for our sins. It is the process through which God, by his grace, delivers us from our sins, all for which (past, present, and future) Christ has already atoned. To be sure, salvation is not fully obtained at the moment of initial justification. Salvation comes in three stages: salvation from the penalty of sin (positional justification); salvation from the power of sin (practical sanctification); and salvation from the presence of sin (ultimate glorification). However, in none of these stages do we atone for our sins as a condition for entering heaven. Salvation is not something we “do†to obtain heaven. By Jesus’ sacrificial death it is done! As the hymn writer put it, “Jesus paid it all. All to him I owe. Sin had left a crimson stain. His blood has washed it white as snow†(cf. Isa. 1:18).

Purgatory is contrary to the immediacy of heaven after death. The Bible speaks of death as the final moment of life after which one goes immediately to heaven or to hell. For “it is appointed that human beings die once, and after this the judgment†(Heb. 9:27). Jesus said that “a great chasm is established to prevent anyone from crossing†the border into heaven after death (Luke 16:26). Upon death a person goes directly to one of two destinies, heaven or hell. At death believers immediately “leave the body and go home to the Lord†(2 Cor. 5:8). That Paul is not merely expressing his wish to be immediately with Christ but a reality is evident from verse 1: “For we know. . . .â€Â

Paul’s statement that, when he died, he would “depart and be with Christ†(Phil. 1:23). The same is true of Paul’s last written words when he speaks of his “departure†to receive his “crown of righteousness†(2 Tim. 4:6–8). Likewise, the saints who will be martyred during the great tribulation will go immediately to heaven (Rev. 6:9–10), as did Enoch in the Old Testament (Heb. 11:5) and Moses and Elijah, who appeared with Christ on the Mount of Transfiguration (Luke 9:30–31). Likewise, unbelievers enter hell at the moment of death. Jesus told the story of how Lazarus died and went to heaven and “the rich man also died and was buried, and from the netherword, where he was in torment . . . he cried out, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me’ †(Luke 16:22–24). There is no indication in Scripture that people will be purified from their sins after death. Scripture teaches that death is final, and a destiny of woe or bliss is immediate.

Geisler, N. L.,
 
Are saying you don't suffer for your own sins?

Of course you suffer for your sins, you suffer from them all the time in life. So is Hebrews not true or are you perhaps misunderstanding it?

The price of sin is death. No one can ever make up for that cost except Christ. However, that doesn't mean we don't 'pay' for our sins on a smaller level. We know without a doubt that sins in our own life lead to misery.

We believe that certain sins pull us away from God.
When we sin, we lose favor and grace. Those who die completely devoid of grace go to hell. Those who die outside of a perfect state of grace must regain it. That process is called purgatory.

Purgatory is a Roman/western term for a very old apostolic teaching. It was one of growth after death.
 
What is it with the Protestant fascination to read books on Catholicism by Anti-Catholics and Protestants?

If I wanted to learn about Baptists I wouldn't want it written by a Congregationalist.

I don't understand that.
 
St. Ambrose said:
What is it with the Protestant fascination to read books on Catholicism by Anti-Catholics and Protestants?

If I wanted to learn about Baptists I wouldn't want it written by a Congregationalist.

I don't understand that.

Its not a one sided argument. It gives both pros and cons and is done in a very tasteful manner...Why not address the issues?
 
jgredline said:
Its not a one sided argument. It gives both pros and cons and is done in a very tasteful manner...Why not address the issues?

Javier,

Some of the arguments are just plain false. For example...


Purgatory is a denial of the sufficiency of the cross.

Purgatory is absolutely based on the sacrifice of Christ. We are healed there just as we are healed on earth when we ask for forgiveness.

Scripture teaches that when Christ died on the cross, he proclaimed, “It is finished

A false presumption. Is Christ's work finished? The bible says that He CONTINUES to intercede for mankind, Paul says it twice, and John at least once. John mentions AFTER the resurrection that Jesus gave apostles the power to forgive sins... WHY? All is done? What about James 5? WHY go to the priest to have sins forgiven??? Christ's suffering is done. Not His work. He continues to work even today by His abiding presence in you and I!!!

The writer of Hebrews declared emphatically that salvation by Christ’s suffering on the cross was a once-for-all accomplished fact.

Yes, He won't die again. See above. Christ continues to intercede for us, He continues to be an Advocate...

To affirm that we must suffer for our own sins is the ultimate insult to Christ’s atoning sacrifice!

Hardly! Our sacrifices continue to be pleasing to the Father when joined to the Son's One Time sacrifice that CONTINUES in eternity. The Church Fathers recognized this in the theology of the sacrifice of the Mass and connecting it to the Eucharist in the FIRST CENTURY!

There is, however, absolutely no evidence that we will have to pay for our sins in the next life, either eternally or temporally.

Jesus gives several examples, parables, of a suffering state in the next life. Also, it was common Jewish belief at the time of Christ that there was a third state of existence after life where people could pray for the dead. Jesus never condemned this practice, although He condemned many other practices.

However, in none of these stages do we atone for our sins as a condition for entering heaven. Salvation is not something we “do†to obtain heaven.

True. And we don't teach that either. Purgation is a natural desire that one would have to enter into the presence of the Almighty and Most Holy Father. What sort of person would nonchalantly form perfect union with God and continue to have impure and selfish desires? Only the pure and clean of heart shall see God. You think because we have been given some legal distinction that we are now magically holy? Holiness is something learned - just as Jesus learned it through obedience, humility, and suffering, so do we. We learn to abandon ourselves, to die to our selfish desires - either here or in the next life when we really SEE God and His awesome self. I do not understand how someone actually thinks they will enter "as-is" into His presence with selfish thoughts.

Purgatory is contrary to the immediacy of heaven after death

Another false presumption. NOWHERE does the Bible talk about "immediacy" after death. We have NO IDEA how "time" moves after death. When Jesus spoke to the good thief, He said today he would be in paradise. But how long or comparable is a day in the afterlife to a day on earth? Who can tell. A thousand years to us is like a day to God.

There is no indication in Scripture that people will be purified from their sins after death. Scripture teaches that death is final, and a destiny of woe or bliss is immediate.

No it doesn't. Again, time is an unknown factor. Also, Scriptures do talk about a third state of existence, at least imply it, in several places besides 2 Maccabees, which IS Scriptures, whether Martin Luther would have it or not.

Purgatory is a wonderful mercy. It means we don't have to be absolutely perfect in this world. It is based on Christ's mercy and love offered from the Cross. Since only the pure of heart shall see God in heaven, I would think that few people here could qualify to enter without some sort of purification of vices that are inherent in most people.

Regards
 
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