Qualifications For Rapture?

[XTruth]

If your question is about the reality of a rapture event, please see post 19 - there I argue Biblically that there will be no rapture, at least no rapture in the sense of people being taken off the face of the earth. I have other Biblical arguments that I can present as well.

Now as to "spiritual bodies": I believe that Paul understands the final state of the redeemed saint as being in a physical body, but that he (Paul) describes this body as "spiritual" to capture the notion that this body will be a "transformed" version of our present bodies. I am not, repeat not, suggesting that we not have resurrection bodies that are physical.

I believe it is clear from 1 Corinthians 15 that Paul believes that the final state of the believer is in a body with arms, legs, head, etc - just like Jesus had. Things get tricky because Paul describes this body as "spiritual" and 21st century westerners, steeped as we are in Greek dualistic thinking (where there is the physical world and an unseen world of immaterial "spirit") misread Paul's characterization and get the idea that we will be "disembodied" forever.

I do not think that is correct - I believe we all get physical bodies that last forever (but, of course, are different in some ways from the bodies we have now). In short, when Paul uses the term "spiritual body", he is still referring to something with legs, arms, a head, etc.

Thank you for the clarification Drew.

My response to post 19 would be too long to dissect thoroughly. My simple reply is on my website

"Once Saved, Always Saved" Destroying A Doctrine Of Demons - Pre Trib Rapture

 

[taromina2003]

Good job! You are searching, and yes there is a spiritual body and a natural body! But we do not obtain this spiritual body at the rapture or at the Second Coming. We are to have this now.

[spiritual body] Greek: pneumatikos (GSN-<G4152>), note, Rom. 7:14. By this is meant the body will become of immortal substance. It has no reference to becoming immaterial, intangible, and without flesh and bones, for our resurrected bodies will still be flesh and bone, though not flesh and blood. See Lk. 24:39; Php. 3:21. Spirit bodies are as real as can be, but of a higher substance than natural bodies. God and angels have spirit bodies, and yet they are real tangible and materialized bodies, as proved by hundreds of passages describing them and many personal acts.

[the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God] Two kinds of people (1Cor. 2:14-15):



1. The natural man. Greek: psuchikos (GSN-<G5591>), soulish (1Cor. 2:14; 15:44-46; Jas. 3:15; Jude 1:19). This is man living under the control of the fleshly passions, the sensual and depraved part of man in contrast with the rational part (Gal. 5:19-21; Rom. 1:29-32; 1Cor. 6:9-11; Col. 3:5-10). He is the animal man as opposed to the spiritual man. He has no sense of spiritual values and no relish for them. He counts it the highest wisdom to live for this world and carnal pleasures. Spiritual things are foolishness to him. He cannot see their supreme excellence due to animal appetites and being spiritually dead (Eph. 2:1-9).



2. The spiritual man. Greek: pneumatikos (GSN-<G4153>), spiritual (1Cor. 2:15; 3:1; 9:11; 14:37; 15:44-46; Gal. 6:1). This man is living under the control of the Holy Spirit and minds the things of the Spirit (Rom. 8:1-13; Gal. 5:16-26). He has the mind of Christ and discerns and esteems spiritual things above the sensual (1Cor. 2:15-16). He is a new creature and resurrected from death in trespasses and sins (2Cor. 5:17-18; Eph. 2:1-9; 4:22-24). The lower animal passions have been crucified (Rom. 8:12-13; Gal. 2:20; 5:24) and put off (Eph. 2:22-24; Col. 3:5-10).

Well walking in the spirit and receiving spiritual bodies are two different things. I think what you are quoting refers to walking in the spirit. There is a transfiguration.

 

[Scandinavian27]

Edit. Wrong post.

 

[Scandinavian27]

Are you sure that there will be a "rapture" of any kind? Have you read post 19, which provides an argument against the very notion of any kind of rapture?

Post tribulation rapture would just be seen as receiving salvation at the end of time. Which is guaranteed to all who walk in the spirit anyway.

 

[Prince]

Of course this would spark a debate over the timing of the rapture and if it is even real (lol).

At the core of this thread's OP is the truth that not all who believe will be raptured because it is obvious that not all are "in Christ," many are "in sin." Only past sins of one's life have been forgiven. Jesus would not ask us (warn us) to repent or else He will fight against us and remove our candlestick if future sins of a believer were automatically forgiven w/o future repentance (Eze.18:24-32; Lk.13:3-5;Gal.5:19-21; 6:1, 7-8; Jas.1:13-16; 5:19-20; 1 Jn.1:9; 2:1-6; Rev.2:5, 16, 21-22; 3:3, 19).


As for the proof of a pre-trib rapture.... or the actual event that will happen before you know it since most are not watching, go here: "Once Saved, Always Saved" Destroying A Doctrine Of Demons - Pre Trib Rapture

"7I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:

8Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing (2 Tim.4)."


The rapture happens before the 1st seal, before the 1st trumpet, before the 1st vile, before the revealling of the Antichrist by the signing of the 7 yr peace covenant w/ Israel and before the great apostasy that is coming and great revival at the same time. BEFORE, BEFORE, BEFORE!

The rapture happens before the 1st seal, before the 1st trumpet, before the 1st vile 1st vile, before the revealling of the Antichrist

If that were true which it is not why would you wanna be raptured anyhow?

It would disqualify you from being one of Gods elect


9But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.
10And the gospel must first be published among all nations. 11But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.

Not to mention God said he shortened the time of the tribulation for the elect sake, can I assume your not one of the elect because you wont be here?

20And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

also

Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it

It sounds like your looking to save your life by flying out of here....When you are to put on the armor of God - armor is not for flying friend.

 

[Drew]

Good job! You are searching, and yes there is a spiritual body and a natural body! But we do not obtain this spiritual body at the rapture or at the Second Coming. We are to have this now.

I am confused. From the rest of your post it appears that you and I agree that a "spiritual" body is not something immaterial. So I agree entirely with the description of the spiritual body. What I have trouble with is your (apparent) claim that we get such a body now.

It seems to me that 1 Cor 15 is clear - we only get those bodies when Jesus returns.

 

[XTruth]

Well walking in the spirit and receiving spiritual bodies are two different things. I think what you are quoting refers to walking in the spirit. There is a transfiguration.

Yes, there is a transfiguration at the rapture. May I now turn your attention to the OP for the qualifications to be a part of this event (no matter what you believe to be the timing of this event)

1 cor.15:44 reference uses the word 'spiritual,' which comes from the Gr. pneumatikos, meaning immortal, referring to the resurrected body (vs. 42, 50, 53, & 54).

A great reference for the notes I just gave you is 1 Cor.2:9-16...earlier in the chapter.

Drew clarified what he meant when I was asking for a biblical reference for what he meant when HE said it.

And YES, we must walk in the Spirit, not the flesh, if we ever expect to receive these spiritual bodies that never see corruption or mortality again (1 Cor.15:51-58).

 

[XTruth]

I am confused. From the rest of your post it appears that you and I agree that a "spiritual" body is not something immaterial. So I agree entirely with the description of the spiritual body. What I have trouble with is your (apparent) claim that we get such a body now.

It seems to me that 1 Cor 15 is clear - we only get those bodies when Jesus returns.

Sorry for unclear words. We are to live and walk after the Spirit now. My fault on that

Our incorruptible, immortal, and glorified bodies are received at the rapture... even the saints in heaven eagerly await that!

 

[XTruth]

If that were true which it is not why would you wanna be raptured anyhow?

It would disqualify you from being one of Gods elect


9But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.
10And the gospel must first be published among all nations. 11But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.

Not to mention God said he shortened the time of the tribulation for the elect sake, can I assume your not one of the elect because you wont be here?

20And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

also

Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it

It sounds like your looking to save your life by flying out of here....When you are to put on the armor of God - armor is not for flying friend.

No Sir, I am not one of the elect of Mat.24. They are Jewish, not the church.

Here is why...

The word elect simply means chosen. Any individual or group of individuals who have been chosen by God would be God's elect. In this sense there are many elects of God in Scripture. The word itself does not specify which elect is referred to in any particular scripture. This must be determined by each passage where the word is found and not by man's interpretation, or his own decision as to which elect is referred to.

The word is used many times of Israel, the church, sometimes of Christ, and 1 time of angels.

Proof this "elect" is Jewish, not the church....

[elect's sake] Jews, not the Church because:

1. Jesus is answering a Jewish question (Mt. 24:3; 25:31-46; Acts 1:6)

2. False Messiahs primarily concern Israel (Mt. 24:5,23-26)

3. Anti-semitism proves it (Mt. 24:9)

4. The travail of Israel (Mt. 24:8)

5. The abomination of desolation concerns Israel only (Mt. 24:15)

6. The Jewish temple (Mt. 24:15)

7. Flight of Israel (Mt. 24:16)

8. The sabbath is Jewish (Mt. 24:20)

9. The great tribulation (Mt. 24:21)

10. Jews are the only people to be gathered (Mt. 24:31)

11. The coming of Christ is to deliver Israel (Mt. 24:29-31; 25:31-46; Zech. 14)

12. Judgment of the nations is based on treatment of Israel (Mt. 25:31-46)

13. The eagles eating carcasses was predicted to be at the time of Israel's deliverance (Mt. 24:28; Ezek. 39:17-22; Lk. 17:34-37; Rev. 19:17-21)

14. The church will be raptured before the above events



Shortned days?...

[shortened] Curtailed. The persecution itself will be cut short, not the 1260 days themselves (Rev. 11:1-3; 12:6,14; 13:5; Dan. 12:7). The Revelation of Jesus Christ to John was more than 6 decades after Jesus spoke Mat.24:22. Scripture does not contradict itself. Jesus did not refute or change Daniel. Revelation confirms the days and time of the Great Tribulation.




Why are the elect running in verse 16 if what you are saying holds water???

[findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it] Whoever lives a life of self-gratification will lose it; whoever puts to death the sinful deeds of the body will gain it (Rom. 8:12-13; Gal. 5:16-26).

 

[Lehigh3]

Sorry for unclear words. We are to live and walk after the Spirit now. My fault on that

Our incorruptible, immortal, and glorified bodies are received at the rapture... even the saints in heaven eagerly await that!

I disagree. We get our glorified bodies not at some "rapture" but when we physically die.
Notice I'm not denying our spiritual bodies in heaven as per 2Cor.4-5, but many have misunderstood Paul in 1 Cor. 15.
I checked the Greek & I will put the link for it here too. Consider the following explanation on the dead being raised up in 1Cor.15,
"Actually Paul makes an amazing statement concerning the dead to prove that the firstfruits were in the most real sense being raised from the dead:

Romans 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God."

THE FOOL'S QUESTION IN 1 CORINTHIANS 15 - Resurrection, Preterism and eschatology and Preterist soteriology; Preterism and Preterist eschatology, rapture, the resurrection and prophecy from a preterist perspective

http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/1co15.pdf
​

 

[Alabaster]

We don't receive our glorified bodies until we need them, and that is when Jesus removes His Bride for the wedding, for she will receive her reward and return with Him to rule on Earth. We will need our bodies for that! Until then, the only bodies in heaven now are those of Jesus' Enoch and Elijah.

Every saint who has died is there in their spirits until the 'change'.

 

[Elijah674]

Indeed. And arguments, Biblical ones at that, against the "reality" of the rapture should be dealt with and not dismissed.

OK: Try this one! Gen. 1 starts out as such with the earth Void, heaven/less, with NO MAN. Jer. 4:23
I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.

[24] I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.

[25] I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.

[26] I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, (SECOND COMING TIME/FRAME!) and by his fierce anger.

[27] For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.

(again, as it was in the exact first history, from creation to the END of the 6000 year period! The 1000 years are to follow with Earth EMPTY except for the circumstantial 'Binding' of satan & his angel followers! Rev. 20:1-3 satan is contained in earths 'bottomless pit' once again, just like before the Godhead created it!

Then he was immediately seen in the Garden of Eden at the forbidden tree! Does anyone Believe the Word of Christ in Ecc. 1:9-10 & Eccl. 3:15 & Gen. 41:22???)

[24] I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.

[25] I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.

[26] I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the **Presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger.

(AGAIN, the TIME/FRAME is the Second Coming of the Master)

[27] For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end. Where are the 1st. resurrected one at then?
(Read on, but remember that there were no heavens, light, or man)

The Second coming of Christ finds 1000 years with the Earth once again having her 7th 1000 year Sabbath. All are DEAD who are wicked & pre/judged such. When Christ comes again, He Brings His REWARD WITH HIM. Rev. 22:12 (Saved, or Lost)

There is a period of Judgement for the wicked during the 1000 years to determine by the Record Books their individual time of punishment. Luke 12:47-48. (compare 1 Cor. 6:2-3) This will be done by RECORD BOOKS alone. Eccl. 12:13-14, Rev. 20:12-14. (Notice: These are D-E-A-D, and this is as quoted, the only way that the dead can stand!)

And verse 27 of Jer. 4?? For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end. These ones are the Righteous who come forth in the FIRST RESURRECTION. Rev. 20:6 Compare 1 Thess. 4:13-16's FIRST RISING, & the outcome of the rest of the wicked at this same time/frame .. 2 Thess. 2:7-12.

Notice Christ Words of John 5:28-29.. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

[29] And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Read it slowly & with the previous verses in mind. Both the wicked & the Righteous are promised a Resurrection, yet it is not at the same time period! Notice again when the wicked were to come forth! Rev. 20:4-7 (to die the second death according to the Heavenly Record Books during this 1000 year time of their 'sentencing for punishment' individual judgement)

---Elijah

 

[Lehigh3]

We don't receive our glorified bodies until we need them, and that is when Jesus removes His Bride for the wedding, for she will receive her reward and return with Him to rule on Earth. We will need our bodies for that! Until then, the only bodies in heaven now are those of Jesus' Enoch and Elijah.

Every saint who has died is there in their spirits until the 'change'.

Nope. That was pre-AD70. The wedding already took place in heaven. The OT faithful & the remnant went to the wedding- but the unbelieving Jews, as Jesus said in the parable of the wedding feast- were cast out.

And you contradict Jesus. He said no one had gone (pre Christ's ascension) to heaven but the one who was from heaven.[John3:13] So maybe you better look at Elijah as gone to the heavens but not the 3rd heaven.

And Jesus in no way is returning to this earth! It's nowhere in scripture & it's false teaching.

Prove where Jesus said He was coming back to earth. He told the apostles they would sit on thrones judging the 12 tribes- that was the 40 yr. millennium.

They reigned with Him a thousand yrs. is prophetic.(for David's fallen tent) And it never says "on earth" for that very reason. Revelation is symbolic.

The time was "in the regeneration of Israel." And it is passed.

 

[jasoncran]

I am not a rapture believer, every part of my soul knows this is a twisted dangerous theory. Why would Jesus over and over again prepare us for the false one? what on earth kind of arrogance would think they are above the martyrs over the centuries who have died for their faith? it is an honor to be a soldier of Christ and fight the good fight till the end! and hey if I'm wrong goody for me! :biglolbut if some feel the Lord is going to take them away from all this, whoa what a let down that will be. We are to prepare to stand up to the false one that is what are faith and the teachings are all about.

i didnt say there wasnt any false person named the ac only that the church will be out of the way when the judgments from God. meaning either dead or taken to the lord. was noah not protected from the flood that killed all men? i guess he should have died then.

 

[Elijah674]

Nope. That was pre-AD70. The wedding already took place in heaven. The OT faithful & the remnant went to the wedding- but the unbelieving Jews, as Jesus said in the parable of the wedding feast- were cast out.

And you contradict Jesus. He said no one had gone (pre Christ's ascension) to heaven but the one who was from heaven.[John3:13] So maybe you better look at Elijah as gone to the heavens but not the 3rd heaven.

And Jesus in no way is returning to this earth! It's nowhere in scripture & it's false teaching.

Prove where Jesus said He was coming back to earth. He told the apostles they would sit on thrones judging the 12 tribes- that was the 40 yr. millennium.

They reigned with Him a thousand yrs. is prophetic.(for David's fallen tent) And it never says "on earth" for that very reason. Revelation is symbolic.

The time was "in the regeneration of Israel." And it is passed.

The ones of Judes 'WINDS' just seem to get more huricane force daily! Not just 'weather' related.

 

[Scandinavian27]

Nope.
And Jesus in no way is returning to this earth! It's nowhere in scripture & it's false teaching.

Prove where Jesus said He was coming back to earth. He told the apostles they would sit on thrones judging the 12 tribes- that was the 40 yr. millennium.

For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. - 1 Thessalonians 4:16

they will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. And then He will send forth the angels, and will gather together His elect from the four winds. - Mark 13:26

 

[Elijah674]

The ones of Judes 'WINDS' just seem to get more huricane force daily! Not just 'weather' related.

Me again:
OK, this is as 'i' see it. Christ comes before the 1000 years. Earth has a before creation's bottomless pit (per/say) with only satan & his evil crew alive. (Jer. 4:23-27) All the wicked when Christ comes Die. (are D-E-A-D 2 Thess. 2:8-9) The Righteous arise in their first resurrection & all of these Righteous now living go back to heaven with Christ for the Judgement (1 Cor. 6:2-3) of the wicked for their [executional ]stage (Luke 12:47-48) according to the record b-o-o-k-s. (Rev. 20:12)

Christ stated in Rev. that when He came He brought His reward with Him, (Rev. 22:11-12) the saved & the lost. This finds the wicked & the Righteous SEPARATED! Eccl. 12:13-14 as this book has it! Again the wicked are [ALL DEAD] and judged 'only' by 'perfectly record books' only!

OK: Here is the thought. Say that you are saved, but your son or daughter is not. Say that you see in the record books in the future that before you were 'really maturely' saved, that you presumptuously lived your type of 'c'hristian life like most of the Rev. 17:1-5 ones who are eternally prophesied lost did. Meaning that smoking was OK! and being obese was no serious problem, and drinking? or eating anything that we have even scientific knowledge is killing folks & shortening lives?? That also is OK, [ONLY BELIEVE] + Grace is asked for!

(and the trite of false doctrines?? we will pass on that for now.)

But finally.. these.. you'ones grow up in 'maturity'. Yet, in the past you 'see' that your kids followed your prior 'TESTIMONY' and died even before 'their time' because of you!
Again, we are just supposing that we are looking in the ACCURATELY RECORDED BOOKS
of the past life of the Love of Christ first, & then of mankind second. (ones family)
And we do LOVE Both, huh???

And yes, the mature do know that all tears will be wiped away, but that is seen after the 1000 years of Judgement! And the shortest verse in Christ Word? Is 'Jesus Wept'. And while going over these records & seeing that there are many who were lost because of our lack of LOVE for them at that time, surely should even now have us take inventory of our life!

 

[Alabaster]

Nope. That was pre-AD70. The wedding already took place in heaven. The OT faithful & the remnant went to the wedding- but the unbelieving Jews, as Jesus said in the parable of the wedding feast- were cast out.

Sorry, but as a part of the Bride of Christ I am still waiting for my Bridegroom. So are we all.

And you contradict Jesus. He said no one had gone (pre Christ's ascension) to heaven but the one who was from heaven.[John3:13] So maybe you better look at Elijah as gone to the heavens but not the 3rd heaven.

I never contradict Jesus. He means that no one has ever gone to Heaven and returned to Earth, but He Himself has come from Heaven.

John 3:13 NLT
No one has ever gone to heaven and returned. But the Son of Man has come down from heaven.

And Jesus in no way is returning to this earth! It's nowhere in scripture & it's false teaching.

Jesus is coming back and He will set up His Kingdom to rule out of Jerusalem as God has promised Him. The OT is riddled with that promise over and over again.

Prove where Jesus said He was coming back to earth. He told the apostles they would sit on thrones judging the 12 tribes- that was the 40 yr. millennium.

Wow. 40 year millennium? LOL! Millennnium means 1000 years. Where is your scriptural backing for that one?

They reigned with Him a thousand yrs. is prophetic.(for David's fallen tent) And it never says "on earth" for that very reason. Revelation is symbolic.

LOL! Revelation is not all symbolic.

The time was "in the regeneration of Israel." And it is passed.

Oh, really. It has not.

 

[Alabaster]

For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. - 1 Thessalonians 4:16

they will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. And then He will send forth the angels, and will gather together His elect from the four winds. - Mark 13:26

Amen!

 

[warhorse]

1 Thessalonians 5:6-9 NKJV
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober. 7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk are drunk at night. 8 But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation. 9 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

You presume that the tribulation is the wrath of God. But the events of the tribulation do not match the clearly defined wrath of God as mentioned in Rev. in fact Jesus himself was describing the tribulation of the saints in Math 24, mark 13 and luke 21. And promised the disciples that all who followed him would face tribulation.
John 16v
32 Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me.
33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have TRIBULATION: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.