Qualifications For Rapture?

[Pizzaguy]

Why would you be unsure? I am sure that Jesus was giving a dual focus prophecy to those in His hearing---one that has a soon fulfillment, because He loves them and the same prophecy with a far fulfillment because once again, He loves us.

Do you not think that He knew that His words would be made available to this generation? Everything He ever is recorded as saying is intended for our ears as well.

Ok, and what did those in HIS day believe? They thought He was coming back right away to take His church, His people with Him.

This is one of the GREAT, ah.... (not sure of the right word to use) "troubles" I have with the New Testament. So much, that I tend to believe He WAS talking about the persecution of the first century.

As to Revelation (the New Testament book) ... not sure it's anything other than images and parables to build faith. Stories that tell of spiritual battles.

Mabye my problem is that I've heard preachers for 34 years tell me that the events of that book "are just now happening"... But every prediction made, fails to come true.

 

[Alabaster]

Ok, and what did those in HIS day believe? They thought He was coming back right away to take His church, His people with Him.

Some did. Was it wrong to believe that Jesus was returning? Was it wrong for people in the 15th Century to believe it? Is it wrong for us to believe it?

He is coming back. In the meantime we are to serve God with all we've got.

This is one of the GREAT, ah.... (not sure of the right word to use) "troubles" I have with the New Testament. So much, that I tend to believe He WAS talking about the persecution of the first century.

He was. He was also prophesying about the end times.

As to Revelation (the New Testament book) ... not sure it's anything other than images and parables to build faith. Stories that tell of spiritual battles.

It is the vision of the end times given to John by Jesus Christ. The vision tells us what is to come, as He says.

Mabye my problem is that I've heard preachers for 34 years tell me that the events of that book "are just now happening"... But every prediction made, fails to come true.

Everything Jesus says will come true. Don't let what people tell you keep you from trusting His word or have trouble with any part of it.

 

[Pizzaguy]

No problem, Alabaster. I am comfortable with your response, and comfortable with the New Testament.

But it does bug me...

 

[Lehigh3]

I believe simply that just as Noah and his family were lifted up and away in the flood, so shall the family of God, that precious Bride be lifted up and out of harm's way.

Yes, maybe that's how Dispensationalism would describe it, but it's twisting the words of the Bible. Noah was "saved" - meaning he was "left" NOT lifted up & away from the earth.

The loving Bridegroom would never allow His Bride to suffer what is intended for the wicked, at the hand of Satan. Nor would He allow His Bride to suffer at the hand of God.

That is why Jesus warned the saints in Matt.24:15 to "flee to the Mts." History records that when those Hebrew Christians saw "Jerusalem surrounded by armies" they did flee the city & were "saved" He appeared a second time for "salvation" for those who were waiting- just as in Daniel 12- the 1,335 days. Only Jews after the flesh died in the great tribulation in Israel, etc. Why? Because believers weren't appointed for the "wrath"- just like the scripture says.

 

[Pizzaguy]

Yes, maybe that's how Dispensationalism would describe it, but it's twisting the words of the Bible. Noah was "saved" - meaning he was "left" NOT lifted up & away from the earth.


That is why Jesus warned the saints in Matt.24:15 to "flee to the Mts." History records that when those Hebrew Christians saw "Jerusalem surrounded by armies" they did flee the city & were "saved" He appeared a second time for "salvation" for those who were waiting- just as in Daniel 12- the 1,335 days. Only Jews after the flesh died in the great tribulation in Israel, etc. Why? Because believers weren't appointed for the "wrath"- just like the scripture says.

Keep typing, I'm reading!

 

[Alabaster]

Yes, maybe that's how Dispensationalism would describe it, but it's twisting the words of the Bible. Noah was "saved" - meaning he was "left" NOT lifted up & away from the earth.

Noah escaped the wrath of God. The Bride will, also. Noah wasn't left. The wicked were.

That is why Jesus warned the saints in Matt.24:15 to "flee to the Mts." History records that when those Hebrew Christians saw "Jerusalem surrounded by armies" they did flee the city & were "saved" He appeared a second time for "salvation" for those who were waiting- just as in Daniel 12- the 1,335 days. Only Jews after the flesh died in the great tribulation in Israel, etc. Why? Because believers weren't appointed for the "wrath"- just like the scripture says.

Yes, they heeded Jesus' word. However, He has not appeared, yet. Preterism takes a giant leap in front, and in effect robs the world of the truth, much rather esteeming themselves as some kind of elitist group and holders of some special knowledge. Rather, they are just wrong.

Jesus' coming has yet to be, which makes Jesus' prophecy still in force.

Funny you seem to forget this scripture:

Revelation 1:7 NKJV
Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.

 

[Drew]

Why, in 1 Thess 4, does Paul talk about "snatching the saints away"? I think that Paul is metaphorically alluding to three other stories – (1) the story of Moses coming down the mountain; (2) the story of Daniel 7, where the persecuted people of God are vindicated over their pagan enemy by being raised up on the clouds to sit with God in glory; and (3) the practice of that time of going out to meet the emperor at some distance from the city.

I suggest that when we look at these stories, it will become apparent that Paul never intended his readers to take the "snatching up in the air" reference literally. And this is not really surprising, Paul represents the final destination of resurrected man as being earth. If God really snatches people directly into heaven, He must then bring them back - a possible scenario perhaps, but it sounds a little odd. And as I think we can see, the 1 Thess 4 text is really metaphorical.

The first element of the metaphor is Moses coming down the mountain - the trumpet sounds and a loud verse is heard (these 2 elements are also in the 1 Thess 4 account - I do not think this is co-incidental, Paul knows his Old Testament) and then, after a long wait, Moses descends the mountain.

The second element of the metaphor is Daniel 7 in which the persecuted people of God are vindicated over their pagan enemy by being raised up on the clouds (note the parallel to the 1 Thess story) to sit with God in glory. This "raising up on the clouds" which Jesus applies to himself in the gospels, is now applied by Paul to the Christians who are presently suffering persecution. Note these references from 1 Thess to the church under persecution:

(1:6) You became imitators of us and of the Lord; in spite of severe suffering, you welcomed the message with the joy given by the Holy Spirit.

(2:14) you, brothers, became imitators of God's churches in Judea, which are in Christ Jesus: You suffered from your own countrymen the same things those churches suffered from the Jews,...

(3:3) that no one would be unsettled by these trials. You know quite well that we were destined for them.

The third element is the historical practice for people to respond to a visit from an emperor by going out to meet him at some distance from the city.

When Paul speaks of "meeting" the Lord "in the air", the point is precisely not - as in the popular rapture theology - that the saved believers would then stay up in the air somewhere, away from earth.

The point is that, having gone out to meet their returning Lord, they will escort him royally into his domain, that is back to the place they came from.

 

[Lehigh3]

Noah escaped the wrath of God. The Bride will, also. Noah wasn't left. The wicked were.

[/B]

Yes, they heeded Jesus' word. However, He has not appeared, yet. Preterism takes a giant leap in front, and in effect robs the world of the truth, much rather esteeming themselves as some kind of elitist group and holders of some special knowledge. Rather, they are just wrong.

Jesus' coming has yet to be, which makes Jesus' prophecy still in force.

Funny you seem to forget this scripture:

Revelation 1:7 NKJV
Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.

Many are being added to the "bride" today. And what "wrath?" There's no WRATH anymore. Preach good news.

Rev.1:1,7, Hello. the tribes of the land were the Jewish leaders who wouldn't see Him again until they said "blaessed is He who comes "

Got work. Cya later with more info

 

[taromina2003]

Noah escaped the wrath of God. The Bride will, also. Noah wasn't left. The wicked were.

[/B]

Yes, they heeded Jesus' word. However, He has not appeared, yet. Preterism takes a giant leap in front, and in effect robs the world of the truth, much rather esteeming themselves as some kind of elitist group and holders of some special knowledge. Rather, they are just wrong.

Jesus' coming has yet to be, which makes Jesus' prophecy still in force.

Funny you seem to forget this scripture:

Revelation 1:7 NKJV
Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.

Why use Noah or Moses as examples? they still stayed on earth and completed their mission not easily by they way and they talked to the Father themselves! they were not taken to heaven and put back on earth when all was good down here! Any better examples?

 

[Alabaster]

Many are being added to the "bride" today. And what "wrath?" There's no WRATH anymore. Preach good news.

Rev.1:1,7, Hello. the tribes of the land were the Jewish leaders who wouldn't see Him again until they said "blaessed is He who comes "

Got work. Cya later with more info

Wrath is coming.

Preterism is out of step with the understanding God gives concerning His Son and His plan for the world.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

1st off, let me state that I do believe in a literal parousia (rapture) of the saints. I believe however, that this parousia is not an event that should be pointed at any generation beyond the one contemporary with Jesus. What I mean is that if there was to be a 'rapture', according to scripture it would have had to have occurred in the 1st century.

 

[taromina2003]

Group 1: Believers in Christ's time.
Group 2: Believers today.

IOW: Odd how we all think that Revelation was speaking of things about to happen 2,000 years ago AND things about to happen today.

I See. Ok well I believe the Bible was written for all times.

 

[Pizzaguy]

I See. Ok well I believe the Bible was written for all times.

I do, too. But again, you know, the bible in many chapters and verses, seems OBVIOUSLY vague. It would seem that Jesus Himself had the gift of being vague as well.

I guess it's becoming obvious - the Bible was WRITTEN intentionally vague. Now we can discuss WHY.

 

[Alabaster]

Why use Noah or Moses as examples? they still stayed on earth and completed their mission not easily by they way and they talked to the Father themselves! they were not taken to heaven and put back on earth when all was good down here! Any better examples?

Noah is considered a type, and is a great example.

 

[taromina2003]

I do, too. But again, you know, the bible in many chapters and verses, seems OBVIOUSLY vague. It would seem that Jesus Himself had the gift of being vague as well.

I guess it's becoming obvious - the Bible was WRITTEN intentionally vague. Now we can discuss WHY.

:biglol

I am not sure what scripture it is but the good LORD did say don't even try to understand everything.

Now I just came across this verse:2Tim:4
4:1 I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and his kingdom: 2 preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and teaching. 3 For the time is coming when people will not endure sound[1] teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, 4 and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths. 5 As for you, always be sober-minded, endure suffering, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.
6 For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure has come. 7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. 8 Henceforth there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will award to me on that Day, and not only to me but also to all who have loved his appearing.I

I have highlighted another verse of scripture that to me again goes against the rapture theory.

 

[Alabaster]

1st off, let me state that I do believe in a literal parousia (rapture) of the saints. I believe however, that this parousia is not an event that should be pointed at any generation beyond the one contemporary with Jesus. What I mean is that if there was to be a 'rapture', according to scripture it would have had to have occurred in the 1st century.

Well, it didn't happen. Otherwise the Lord would have redacted His word.

 

[taromina2003]

Noah is considered a type, and is a great example.

I understand but you are equating him with those that believe in the rapture. He wasn't raptured away so why use that as an example?

 

[Alabaster]

:biglol

I am not sure what scripture it is but the good LORD did say don't even try to understand everything.

Now I just came across this verse:
4:1 I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and his kingdom: 2 preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and teaching. 3 For the time is coming when people will not endure sound[1] teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, 4 and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths. 5 As for you, always be sober-minded, endure suffering, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.
6 For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure has come. 7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. 8 Henceforth there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will award to me on that Day, and not only to me but also to all who have loved his appearing.I

I have highlighted another verse of scripture that to me again goes against the rapture theory.

How does that refute the Rapture? God tells us we will all need to endure suffering for our faith to some extent, some more than others. This is not eschatological. We need not manipulate scripture to suit our sensibilities.

 

[Alabaster]

I understand but you are equating him with those that believe in the rapture. He wasn't raptured away so why use that as an example?

Do you not understand typology?

 

[taromina2003]

How does that refute the Rapture? God tells us we will all need to endure suffering for our faith to some extent, some more than others. This is not eschatological. We need not manipulate scripture to suit our sensibilities.

I am not trying to be a smarty pants but do you have a mission you are to fiil till the end? or do some people who believe in the rapture sit around and wait for the good LORD to whisk them away at the very smell of trouble? I don't get it. Do they believe they are so darn good that they deserve to not have to endure any pain or suffering? Please help me to understand