Christian Forums

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

  • Focus on the Family

    Strengthening families through biblical principles.

    Focus on the Family addresses the use of biblical principles in parenting and marriage to strengthen the family.

  • Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
  • The Gospel of Jesus Christ

    Heard of "The Gospel"? Want to know more?

    There is salvation in no other, for there is not another name under heaven having been given among men, by which it behooves us to be saved."

Question about Bible Version....

2024 Website Hosting Fees

Total amount
$1,048.00
Goal
$1,038.00

Louis J

Member
Hello, and thank you in advance to anyone who can help.

I am currently reading the New International Version in conjunction with the King James Version of the Bible. The reason why I like the New Internation Version is because it puts the verses in a more modern English. The reason I dislike the New Internation Version is because it changes "....man" and "brothers" to things like "someone" and "brothers and sisters". I'd prefer a translation that modernized the text, without making it more "pc". Does anyone know a version that, while modernizing the text, remains more true to the verses?
 
Hello, and thank you in advance to anyone who can help.

I am currently reading the New International Version in conjunction with the King James Version of the Bible. The reason why I like the New Internation Version is because it puts the verses in a more modern English. The reason I dislike the New Internation Version is because it changes "....man" and "brothers" to things like "someone" and "brothers and sisters". I'd prefer a translation that modernized the text, without making it more "pc". Does anyone know a version that, while modernizing the text, remains more true to the verses?

Louis,

There's a reason why the NIV translates "man" as someone or person and "brothers" as brothers and sisters. In certain contexts that is the meaning of anthropos (man) and adelphoi (brothers and sisters). Wouldn't you prefer a more accurate translation of the meaning of words?

The NIV is a meaning-for-meaning translation from the original languages. The KJV is a more literal translation.

Oz
 
Last edited:
Well, the mathematics is wrong, so what else could be wrong? Just sayin'... (and mathematics is very important in the bible as a side note).
Reductio ad absurdum! The measurements of biblical times were not as precise as those we use today. Are you actually claiming that because of this the Bible isn't true? Seriously???
 
Reductio ad absurdum! The measurements of biblical times were not as precise as those we use today. Are you actually claiming that because of this the Bible isn't true? Seriously???
Yes, seriously. In biblical times weights and measures were exact (or was supposed to be). As a matter of fact, just look at the Great Pyramid. The Egyptian royal cubit permeates that structure. Don't confuse exactness with our understanding as to what the measurements actually were. Apples and Oranges. In addition, the argument you just made is not even what I am talking about. The translation fails because the English system was used-- that is to say, it does not even work out with the English system of measure. This has nothing to do with the exactness of the measurements in the Hebrew time frame. Sometimes translations can get tricky, but this passage I found can be proven or disproven with a simple calculator.
 
Louis,

There's a reason why the NIV translates "man" as someone or person and "brothers" as brothers and sisters. In certain contexts that is the meaning of anthropos (man) and adelphoi (brothers and sisters). Wouldn't you prefer a more accurate translation of the meaning of words?

The NIV is a meaning-for-meaning translation from the original languages. The KJV is a more literal translation.

Oz
The KJV is not a literal translation. It was based on the Latin Vulgate, Tyndale translation, Geneva Bible, used a limited set of source documents, and, most importantly, was intended to fix the secular king's concept of "true" Protestantism as the truth. There are many translations that are far better than the KJV: based on better and more source documents, written on modern (clearly understandable) English, and created for our modern culture.

This last part is important. We live in an entirely different world than the ancient era when the Bible was written. A good translation gives us the meaning of what was written, as it was understood by the original hearers. We do not live in their culture, nor do we live in early 17th Century England. We think, read, write, and converse in our modern language!

The vocabulary, verb tenses, idioms, sentence structure, etc. of the ancient languages is very different than our own, so a word-for-word translation is virtually impossible. For example, if I could converse with someone of the Biblical era and told them that even though the monsoon season is almost over, it's still raining cats and dogs here, and there is a hurricane threatening Florida, they would have absolutely no idea what I was talking about. If they told me to beat my sword into a ploughshare, I would tell them that a) I don't own a sword and b) I have no idea what a ploughshare is.

I strongly recommend a Bible version that is understood by the reader, uses excellent sources, and is created by a committee that is free from sectarian bias. My personal preferences are the NET Bible, the NRSVue, and the NIV, but again, it is important for the reader to clearly understand what is written.

An excellent resource for reading different versions and comparing them is biblegateway.com
 
The KJV is not a literal translation. It was based on the Latin Vulgate, Tyndale translation, Geneva Bible, used a limited set of source documents, and, most importantly, was intended to fix the secular king's concept of "true" Protestantism as the truth.
He had a few other motives as well. Perhaps the most egregious was substituting the name "James" instead of Jacob. The Greek and Latin both have Jacob. but he had to insert his own name into the text.
 
The KJV is not a literal translation. It was based on the Latin Vulgate, Tyndale translation, Geneva Bible, used a limited set of source documents, and, most importantly, was intended to fix the secular king's concept of "true" Protestantism as the truth. There are many translations that are far better than the KJV: based on better and more source documents, written on modern (clearly understandable) English, and created for our modern culture.

That's true and it is why 2022 readers of the Bible ought to read a meaning-for-meaning translation such as the NIV, REB, NLT, NRSV, etc.

Oz
 
Hello, and thank you in advance to anyone who can help...

Does anyone know a version that, while modernizing the text, remains more true to the verses?
Firstly, it's dangerous to seek to "modernize the text" (i.e. alter the words of God) because that not only brings unsaved men into the fight, but more importantly it denies the true word of God, which states "If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him." Point: ask God, and not men, for wisdom, and he promises you shall receive it.

Secondly, another tip to gaining true wisdom and discernment is to avoid those "versions" which are copyrighted by men. For example, if you want to quote more than 500 words from Rupert Murdoch's copyrighted NIV, then you'll need to get his permission in writing to do so, as he claims ownership over it even as his bible is not wholly holy.

I'm not gonna argue with those whose business it is to be be armchair bible critics - i.e. those whose passion it is to criticize the words of God. You asked for "anyone who can help;" I pray this info will help you walk closer with Almighty God.
 
Firstly, it's dangerous to seek to "modernize the text" (i.e. alter the words of God) because that not only brings unsaved men into the fight, but more importantly it denies the true word of God, which states "If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him." Point: ask God, and not men, for wisdom, and he promises you shall receive it.

Secondly, another tip to gaining true wisdom and discernment is to avoid those "versions" which are copyrighted by men. For example, if you want to quote more than 500 words from Rupert Murdoch's copyrighted NIV, then you'll need to get his permission in writing to do so, as he claims ownership over it even as his bible is not wholly holy.

I'm not gonna argue with those whose business it is to be be armchair bible critics - i.e. those whose passion it is to criticize the words of God. You asked for "anyone who can help;" I pray this info will help you walk closer with Almighty God.
So you think that a translation specifically created by a secular king to make his version of Protestantism "official" is "the Word of God"? I hate to break this to you, but it most definitely is not. If you think that King James didn't modernize the text, you don't know anything about the history of Bible translations.

FYI, because obviously you lack the knowledge, the King James "Authorized Version" is technically copyrighted by the Crown of England. The crown has a perpetual copyright on the King James Bible, through "letters patent" originally issued to stop unofficial editions and then to protect the country from ranters, shakers, Quakers, nonconformity and popery. Also, a) the KJV reference Bibles are all copyrighted and b) you are free to quote a portion of any modern Bible within certain limits, as long as the source is given. Do your homework!
 
Firstly, it's dangerous to seek to "modernize the text" (i.e. alter the words of God)
It seems you may not understand how we get English translations. Modernizing the English is not only necessary, because no one speaks in old English anymore, at least they shouldn't if they want to have friends and influence people, it isn't altering the words of God anymore than the KJV can be said to be altering the words of God (it's actually the KJV that alters the words of God more than some newer versions). It's the texts behind the translations that matter. Newer translations are based on significantly more, and older, manuscript evidence than the KJV. Most of the manuscript evidence we have has been discovered since the KJV was first translated.

but more importantly it denies the true word of God, which states "If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him." Point: ask God, and not men, for wisdom, and he promises you shall receive it.
It actually does nothing of the sort. If anything, it actually gets us closer to the autographs, and away from things like unicorns and Easter.

I suggest watching the video I posted above. It's quite informative.
 
It seems you may not understand how we get English translations. Modernizing the English is not only necessary, because no one speaks in old English anymore, at least they shouldn't if they want to have friends and influence people, it isn't altering the words of God anymore than the KJV can be said to be altering the words of God (it's actually the KJV that alters the words of God more than some newer versions). It's the texts behind the translations that matter. Newer translations are based on significantly more, and older, manuscript evidence than the KJV. Most of the manuscript evidence we have has been discovered since the KJV was first translated.


It actually does nothing of the sort. If anything, it actually gets us closer to the autographs, and away from things like unicorns and Easter.

I suggest watching the video I posted above. It's quite informative.
Great post, very informative.
 
Here is the follow-up to the previous video I shared (note that the video repeats from about 52:39 to 1:05:08). It really is fascinating information and very relevant to the discussion:

 
So you think that a translation specifically created by a secular king to make his version of Protestantism "official" is "the Word of God"?
lol @ the utter absence of anything even remotely documented.

It's a shame to see supposed believers behaving that way.

I hate to break this to you...
No, you don't; you love doing this.

...you don't know anything about the history of Bible translations.
I don't have to, thank God.

FYI, because obviously you lack the knowledge, the King James "Authorized Version" is technically copyrighted by the Crown of England.
So wrong again.

You’ve shot yourself in the foot here.

Getting back to the motivation$ of men and their copyrighted invention$:

I have in my hand The Holy Bible, the actual title of the King James Bible. Neither on its indicia page, nor elsewhere, is the word “copyright” found. It is in the public domain.

Conversely, modern translations are protected by copyright law. Permission must be obtained from, and fees paid to, the men who claim to own these derivative works. And different publishers have different terms.

There are fundamental differences between a “copyright” and a “letters patent."

Copyright: "The legal protection given to authors and artists to prevent reproduction of their work without their consent. The owner of a copyright has the exclusive right to print, reprint, publish, copy and sell the material covered by the copyright." The New Standard Encyclopedia, volume 3, page 565.

LETTERS PATENT. The name of an instrument granted by the government to convey a right to the patentee; as, a patent for a tract of land; or to secure to him a right which he already possesses, as a patent for a new invention or discovery; Letters patent are a matter of record. They are so called because they are not sealed up, but are granted open. Vide Patent. Bouvier's Dictionary of Law, 1856.

A Letters Patent is about preservation; a copyright is about restriction.

So this is how it plays out in the real world:

Obviously the KJB's crown patent is not the same as a copyright, as it was created before copyright laws. The proof is in the pudding, as anyone may reproduce the text, throughout the world, freely. God had his Bible done before the invention of the copyright. The crown patent simply related to the care and control of printing an accurate text back then and was overseen by the government which 'authorized' the text. That same government, although now liberal, still has the responsibility of guarding the veracity of the text within England. They have always allowed anyone in the world to print it, and consequently could never go back and change their mind and not allow this. Even if one wanted to say it had a copyright, that copyright would be null and void, because they have set the precedent of allowing it to be printed worldwide. One of the legal caveats about current 'copyright' law is that if you do not restrict people from printing your material, you lose your right to come back later and insist that they do. So either way, the KJB, as the word of God, unlike the modern copyrighted versions of the KJB, is not bound.

God made certain that the historic English Bible (e.g. KJB) had the correct "equivalency" long before copyright laws were created worldwide. He makes certain that the antique Queen's Patent is never enforced to curtail its spread in Great Britain.

...you are free to quote a portion of any modern Bible within certain limits, as long as the source is given. Do your homework!
Such double mindedness again. Either "you are free" OR you must abide "within certain limits." Can't have it both ways.

Modernizing the English is not only necessary, because no one speaks in old English anymore, at least they shouldn't if they want to have friends and influence people...
Can't seem to find Dale Carnegie anywhere in the Holy Bible. Try Amazon? --> https://www.amazon.com/How-Win-Friends-Influence-People/dp/0671027034

...it actually gets us closer to the autographs...
You mean closer to the unsaved critics.

...and away from things like unicorns and Easter.
Ignorance is truly bliss (but for a season).
 
Can't seem to find Dale Carnegie anywhere in the Holy Bible. Try Amazon? --> https://www.amazon.com/How-Win-Friends-Influence-People/dp/0671027034
Interesting, but not surprising, that you ignored the actual argument and responded to my attempt at humour instead.

Modernizing the English is not only necessary, because no one speaks in old English anymore . . . it isn't altering the words of God anymore than the KJV can be said to be altering the words of God (it's actually the KJV that alters the words of God more than some newer versions).
https://www.amazon.com/How-Win-Friends-Influence-People/dp/0671027034
You mean closer to the unsaved critics.
No, I mean closer to the autographs. You seem to think that the NT was written in 17th century English, which would be the only way that it could be the only word of God in the way you are using the term. Again, it's the manuscripts behind the translations that matter.

Ignorance is truly bliss (but for a season).
Ignorance isn't bliss, it's bondage. That is why I strongly suggest you watch the two videos above that I posted.
 
Read whatever works for you. Just read the Bible.

Ask 10 people and get different answers. Just steer away from obviously distorted versions (i.e. New World Translation, Passion Translation, etc.)

I read the Bible in my native language, as well as the ESV and KJV. (NKJV for the audio Bible I listen to in the morning)
 
lol @ the utter absence of anything even remotely documented.

It's a shame to see supposed believers behaving that way.


No, you don't; you love doing this.


I don't have to, thank God.


So wrong again.

You’ve shot yourself in the foot here.

Getting back to the motivation$ of men and their copyrighted invention$:

I have in my hand The Holy Bible, the actual title of the King James Bible. Neither on its indicia page, nor elsewhere, is the word “copyright” found. It is in the public domain.

Conversely, modern translations are protected by copyright law. Permission must be obtained from, and fees paid to, the men who claim to own these derivative works. And different publishers have different terms.

There are fundamental differences between a “copyright” and a “letters patent."

Copyright: "The legal protection given to authors and artists to prevent reproduction of their work without their consent. The owner of a copyright has the exclusive right to print, reprint, publish, copy and sell the material covered by the copyright." The New Standard Encyclopedia, volume 3, page 565.

LETTERS PATENT. The name of an instrument granted by the government to convey a right to the patentee; as, a patent for a tract of land; or to secure to him a right which he already possesses, as a patent for a new invention or discovery; Letters patent are a matter of record. They are so called because they are not sealed up, but are granted open. Vide Patent. Bouvier's Dictionary of Law, 1856.

A Letters Patent is about preservation; a copyright is about restriction.

So this is how it plays out in the real world:

Obviously the KJB's crown patent is not the same as a copyright, as it was created before copyright laws. The proof is in the pudding, as anyone may reproduce the text, throughout the world, freely. God had his Bible done before the invention of the copyright. The crown patent simply related to the care and control of printing an accurate text back then and was overseen by the government which 'authorized' the text. That same government, although now liberal, still has the responsibility of guarding the veracity of the text within England. They have always allowed anyone in the world to print it, and consequently could never go back and change their mind and not allow this. Even if one wanted to say it had a copyright, that copyright would be null and void, because they have set the precedent of allowing it to be printed worldwide. One of the legal caveats about current 'copyright' law is that if you do not restrict people from printing your material, you lose your right to come back later and insist that they do. So either way, the KJB, as the word of God, unlike the modern copyrighted versions of the KJB, is not bound.

God made certain that the historic English Bible (e.g. KJB) had the correct "equivalency" long before copyright laws were created worldwide. He makes certain that the antique Queen's Patent is never enforced to curtail its spread in Great Britain.


Such double mindedness again. Either "you are free" OR you must abide "within certain limits." Can't have it both ways.


Can't seem to find Dale Carnegie anywhere in the Holy Bible. Try Amazon? --> https://www.amazon.com/How-Win-Friends-Influence-People/dp/0671027034


You mean closer to the unsaved critics.


Ignorance is truly bliss (but for a season).
You are wrong, wrong, wrong, and wrong. Since you obviously have no idea what you're writing about I will leave off discussing it with you. Since your ignorance makes you blissful I will discuss this subject further only with those who make sense.
 
Interesting, but not surprising, that you ignored the actual argument and responded to my attempt at humour instead.

Modernizing the English is not only necessary, because no one speaks in old English anymore . . . it isn't altering the words of God anymore than the KJV can be said to be altering the words of God (it's actually the KJV that alters the words of God more than some newer versions).
https://www.amazon.com/How-Win-Friends-Influence-People/dp/0671027034

No, I mean closer to the autographs. You seem to think that the NT was written in 17th century English, which would be the only way that it could be the only word of God in the way you are using the term. Again, it's the manuscripts behind the translations that matter.


Ignorance isn't bliss, it's bondage. That is why I strongly suggest you watch the two videos above that I posted.
Great post! I admire your perseverance in sticking with those who don't know the facts about the KJV and the principles of Bible translation.
 
Back
Top