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Question about Daniel 9

Sinthesis said:
Starting at 444BC is a dead end. Play it out; you'll be disappointed.

Look at how the word 'Jerusalem' is used elsewhere in Dan 9. What does 'Jerusalem' really mean?
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I realize this creates problems, but this is one of those areas where I simply have to follow the trail where it leads. Jerusalem is as much the city in verse 25 as it is in verse 2. Yes, the 587 BC desolation of Jerusalem includes the Temple, but if the Temple is meant to be included in verse 25, why is it not mentioned specifically, and why is there almost a 100 year span of time from the time the decree is issued specifically to rebuild the Temple to the time of the decree specifically to rebuild the city and its walls?

And as if that didn't muddy the waters sufficiently, I've been thinking about another issue here, too: the 7 and 62 weeks.

Why do we assume these weeks are consecutive when the verse that deals with them doesn't say "after 69 weeks"?

"Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined. Daniel 9:26 (NASB)

See? It says after the 62 weeks, not after the 69. I'm just spit-balling here, but is it possible that the 7 and 62 weeks are concurrent and not consecutive weeks? Or is there a gap between the 7 weeks and the 62 weeks that would cause Daniel to deal with them as distinct, unrelated periods of time?

What I want to know here is why we assume the 7 and 62 weeks should be added together when there is nothing in verse 26 to suggest that adding them together should be the case.
 
Stormcrow said:
There were a lot of things about the Law of Moses that the apostate priesthood of the 1st century just didn't seem to get right.

While I am a stickler for a proper rendering of the original languages into English, I find it interesting that your apparent issue with every translation presented seems to come back to this idea that "vicarious atonement" isn't in the original Hebrew.

That view simply is not true. One of the most famous Messianic prophecies is in Isaiah 53:

Surely our griefs He Himself bore, And our sorrows He carried; Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken, Smitten of God, and afflicted.

But He was pierced through for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him, And by His scourging we are healed.

All of us like sheep have gone astray, Each of us has turned to his own way; But the LORD has caused the iniquity of us all To fall on Him. He was oppressed and He was afflicted, Yet He did not open His mouth; Like a lamb that is led to slaughter, And like a sheep that is silent before its shearers, So He did not open His mouth. By oppression and judgment He was taken away; And as for His generation, who considered That He was cut off out of the land of the living For the transgression of my people, to whom the stroke was due?

His grave was assigned with wicked men, Yet He was with a rich man in His death, Because He had done no violence, Nor was there any deceit in His mouth. Isaiah 53:4-9 (NASB)

This passage is all about "substitutionary atonement": the suffering of Christ fulfills this prophecy to a "T".

Furthermore, there is no other "Messiah the prince" in Daniel 9 that meets the conditions of fulfillment that Jesus Christ does. If you have a name you'd like to drop here that does, I'm sure we'll consider it.
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Messiah the Prince refers to the Messianic proclamation of the people when Jesus came into the city of Jerusalem, where they cried out Hosanna to the son of David, and laid palm branches down before Him. This event is celebrated even to this day as "Palm Sunday". Hosanna is a Messianic term from psalms 118 that means "save now"! The priest's were angry with the people and asked Jesus to stop them because this was a reference to be made to YHWH.
9 Then the multitudes who went before and those who followed cried out, saying: "Hosanna to the Son of David! 'Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!' Hosanna in the highest!" 10 And when He had come into Jerusalem, all the city was moved, saying, "Who is this?" 11 So the multitudes said, "This is Jesus, the prophet from Nazareth of Galilee." Matthew 21:9-11
Jesus said if these people don't praise me the stones will cry out.

This was the prophecy from Daniel being fulfilled and nothing in heaven or on earth was going to stop it from coming to pass!

Psalm 118:21-26
21 I will praise You, For You have answered me, And have become my salvation. 22 The stone which the builders rejected Has become the chief cornerstone. 23 This was the Lord's doing; It is marvelous in our eyes. 24 This is the day the Lord has made; We will rejoice and be glad in it. 25 Save now, I pray, O Lord; O Lord, I pray, send now prosperity. 26 Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord! We have blessed you from the house of the Lord.

This event marked the end of the 69th week!

Five days later, after the 69th week, Messiah was "cut off" on Passover.

26 "And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;


Furthermore, Messiah The Prince is a reference to the son of King David.

The son of a king is a prince.

Hosanna to the son of David is a direct reference to the son of David being the Messiah!


17 So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations, from David until the captivity in Babylon are fourteen generations, and from the captivity in Babylon until the Christ are fourteen generations. Matthew 1:17

A Generation is 40 years.

Babylonian Captivity to Christ = 14 generations = 560 years
Time of Captivity = 70 years
560 -70 = 490 years. Which is 70 weeks.
Gap between 7 weeks and 62 weeks = 40 years = 1 Generation
33 = Birth to “Palm Sundayâ€
490 - 40 = 450 years + 33 years “Birth†to Messiah the Prince 483 years = 69 weeks
[Messiah the Prince; Hosanna to the son of David]



JLB

 
JLB said:
A Generation is 40 years.

Babylonian Captivity to Christ = 14 generations = 560 years
Time of Captivity = 70 years
560 -70 = 490 years. Which is 70 weeks.
Gap between 7 weeks and 62 weeks = 40 years = 1 Generation
33 = Birth to “Palm Sundayâ€
490 - 40 = 450 years + 33 years “Birth†to Messiah the Prince 483 years = 69 weeks [Messiah the Prince; Hosanna to the son of David]
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That is an interesting view, JLB. I've read something similarly 'different' in the Early Church Fathers. It is interesting that there are different ways to arrive at the same (basic) dates.
 
Does anyone disagree that D9 is in view here?;

4 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, 15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
 
EDEN2004 said:
Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

I have always been taught that the Antichrist makes a peace treaty with Israel, then in the middle of the week he breaks the covenant and causes the sacrifice to cease, then does the abomination of desolation. I noticed this other passage in Daniel the other day.

Dan 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

That is 43 months or 3.58 years. Does anyone have an answer to this problem?
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Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. This is 1260 days.

Daniel 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. This is 1290 days prior to the middle of the tribulation, which is 30 days before the tribulation.

Hi Eden, and having not read every response, I'll just give you my thoughts on Daniel 9:27. The seven years (1260 days) of tribulation begins thirty days after the daily sacrifice is taken away in Daniel 12:11, I as well as others believe to be the false prophet. The antichrist then makes a covenant with many for a week (7 years); this may be the peace treaty you are referring to. This gives us the 1290 days.

Many believe a temple must be in place to sacrifice again and that is not true, Without a temple, presently the Jews have taken the scripture of Hosea 14:2 as sacrifice. ". . we render the calves of our lips." This is much like Hebrews 13:15. "By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name."

After seventy years captivity, the first thing Israel did was to return to Jerusalem and build an altar to sacrifice; the temple had been burned according to 2 Chronicles 36:19. Ezra 3:2-3 Then stood up Jeshua the son of Jozadak, and his brethren the priests, and Zerubbabel the son of Shealtiel, and his brethren, and builded the altar of the God of Israel, to offer burnt offerings thereon, as it is written in the law of Moses the man of God. 3 And they set the altar upon his bases; for fear was upon them because of the people of those countries: and they offered burnt offerings thereon unto the LORD, even burnt offerings morning and evening.

The temple was not rebuilt yet. Ezra 3:4-6 They kept also the feast of tabernacles, as it is written, and offered the daily burnt offerings by number, according to the custom, as the duty of every day required; 5 And afterward offered the continual burnt offering, both of the new moons, and of all the set feasts of the LORD that were consecrated, and of every one that willingly offered a freewill offering unto the LORD. 6 From the first day of the seventh month began they to offer burnt offerings unto the LORD. But the foundation of the temple of the LORD was not yet laid.

As to the term of antichrist applied to this covenant maker, he is indeed empowered by the prince of the people that tore up Jerusalem in 70 AD.
 
Eugene said:
Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. This is 1260 days.

Daniel 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. This is 1290 days prior to the middle of the tribulation, which is 30 days before the tribulation.

Hi Eden, and having not read every response, I'll just give you my thoughts on Daniel 9:27. The seven years (1260 days) of tribulation begins thirty days after the daily sacrifice is taken away in Daniel 12:11, I as well as others believe to be the false prophet. The antichrist then makes a covenant with many for a week (7 years); this may be the peace treaty you are referring to. This gives us the 1290 days.

Many believe a temple must be in place to sacrifice again and that is not true, Without a temple, presently the Jews have taken the scripture of Hosea 14:2 as sacrifice. ". . we render the calves of our lips." This is much like Hebrews 13:15. "By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name."

After seventy years captivity, the first thing Israel did was to return to Jerusalem and build an altar to sacrifice; the temple had been burned according to 2 Chronicles 36:19. Ezra 3:2-3 Then stood up Jeshua the son of Jozadak, and his brethren the priests, and Zerubbabel the son of Shealtiel, and his brethren, and builded the altar of the God of Israel, to offer burnt offerings thereon, as it is written in the law of Moses the man of God. 3 And they set the altar upon his bases; for fear was upon them because of the people of those countries: and they offered burnt offerings thereon unto the LORD, even burnt offerings morning and evening.

The temple was not rebuilt yet. Ezra 3:4-6 They kept also the feast of tabernacles, as it is written, and offered the daily burnt offerings by number, according to the custom, as the duty of every day required; 5 And afterward offered the continual burnt offering, both of the new moons, and of all the set feasts of the LORD that were consecrated, and of every one that willingly offered a freewill offering unto the LORD. 6 From the first day of the seventh month began they to offer burnt offerings unto the LORD. But the foundation of the temple of the LORD was not yet laid.

As to the term of antichrist applied to this covenant maker, he is indeed empowered by the prince of the people that tore up Jerusalem in 70 AD.
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It is appropriate to consider the "pattern" of the prophetic word given by
Gabriel to Daniel in Daniel 9:24-27.

The pattern being that a "Ruler" or King in the seat of authority of World Government gave - the command To restore and build Jerusalem Until Messiah the Prince, There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks;

The work of restoring and "re"building Jerusalem commenced and paused from such a one with this level of authority, therefore to remain true to this pattern "someone" in this position of authority should cause the last "seven" to commence.

This stands to reason, since it will take a great measure of authority to allow sacrifice and offering to take place on the temple mount in the face of a middle eastern world filled with Muslims, which is why I believe this leader will be accepted as both "Messiah" and "Iman" as well as have the political power to "confirm" the covenant that will allow the sacrifices to begin.


JLB
 
reba said:
Why a gap?
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Hi reba, Not having your response directed to someone I hope you don't mind me jumping in here, but there was no gap as all blessings were prophesied for those 490 years; not tribulation. For the sake of Preterists, there was no gap until 70 AD either.

Daniel 9:24. "Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy."

What portion of Daniel 9:24 was not performed during the four hundred and ninety years of Daniel's prophesy? These were all blessings; not tribulation.

1. He's going to finish the transgression.
2. He's going to make an end of sins.
3. He's going to make reconciliation for iniquity.
4. He's going to bring in everlasting righteousness.
5. He's going to seal up the vision.
6. He's going to seal up the prophesy.
7. He's going to anoint the most Holy.

The seventieth week of Daniel was complete in forty AD.
 
Dont mind one little bit Eugune!

I see pattern after pattern in scripture . They follow they dont play hopscotch.

I would also like to hear from those who see a gap as to why/how they see it....

Welcome to CFnet Eugene :waving
 
Preterists are very confused about what futurism is and what it believes. They confuse futurism with Dispensationalism... they are not the same. That would be like comparing the Mormons to the Apostles simply because they both believe in Jesus. Dispensationalist's are akin to Mormons theologically. Dispensationists believe in the GAP; traditional-orthodox futurism does not. By confusing futurism with dispensational doctrines is a mistake that has led many to adopt equally false doctrines such as Preterism.
 
Tri Unity said:
Dispensationists believe in the GAP. ;)
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That is a very broad brush you paint with. I believe in dispensations of God's dealing with man much along the lines Scofield did, but I do not believe in the gap being injected between the 490 years of Daniel. I do believe there is a coming week of tribulation, and a millennial age to come afterwards.

For instance, I do not believe we're told to not eat of the tree of good and evil; that was a past time and there was consequence. In 1 Corinthians 9:17 Paul was the only apostle given a dispensation of the gospel he personally received of the risen Christ to fulfil the word of God as we read in Colossians 1:25.
 
Eugene said:
That is a very broad brush you paint with. I believe in dispensations of God's dealing with man much along the lines Scofield did, but I do not believe in the gap being injected between the 490 years of Daniel.
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Ok, so you do not believe in a 7 year treaty in the end-times?
 
Tri Unity said:
Ok, so you do not believe in a 7 year treaty in the end-times?
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I assume you are talking of the "Covenant with "many" of Daniel 9:27 and I do believe that, but that covenant is broken halfway though, and it does not fit the 490 years of blessings prophesied in Daniel 9:24, "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate." That latter half of the tribulation will be known as Jacob's trouble of Jeremiah 30:7, and as we read in Matthew 24:21, "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."

Blessings in Christ Jesus.
 
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