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Bible Study Question: Did Jesus Christ Have Two Natures?

Pegasus said:
An early error was Nestorianism.

https://carm.org/nestorianism
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Thank you friend Pegasus. I appreciated your posting the site on Nestorianism. I read it and wondered about this...."The council of Ephesus was convened in 431 to address the issue and pronounced that Jesus was one person in two distinct and inseparable natures: divine and human."

Because the Counsel of Ephesus was convened because Nestorius taught that Jesus was two persons. IMO, because they were so occupied with the two person heresy, they leaned on the two nature theory as an answer for those who followed Nestorius.
 
Chopper said:
Hmm, I don't know about that. I just believe that Jesus was able to sympathize with our temptations without a human nature. I'll give it some more thought, just because I value your thinking.

Will you be around more now?

Love You. :hug
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I'll be around.
Love You, my brother. :hug
 
smaller said:
There are plenty of heresies revolving around that matter chopper. The ancient theology term that I accept in the matters is "hypostatic union." Which term was specifically made (as many unique christian theological terms are made) for the Trinity.

Hypo means beneath or below. Static meaning unchanging. It's an anglicized term for the similar term in Aramaic greek for hupostatis that is used in the N.T. to denote Jesus' distinctively unique personage.
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Here is my thinking on a hypostatic union. When Christ was on His way to the cross, if a hypostatic union was present in Jesus, He wouldn't have gone to the cross because nothing human (nature) would be allowed to propitiate for our sins.
 
Chopper said:
Here is my thinking on a hypostatic union. When Christ was on His way to the cross, if a hypostatic union was present in Jesus, He wouldn't have gone to the cross because nothing human (nature) would be allowed to propitiate for our sins.
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He was a perfect human being as God had first created Adam, without sin and perfectly submitted to God.
Therefore, he was the perfect sacrifice for our sins because HE had no sin. He was the sacrificial "Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world."
He was also perfectly God.
 
Jesus Christ Truly God----Son of God

Jesus Christ Truly man----Son of Man

He had both titles for a reason.

Embrace the beauty of it.

Embrace the paradox.
 
Jim Parker said:
He was a perfect human being as God had first created Adam, without sin and perfectly submitted to God.
Therefore, he was the perfect sacrifice for our sins because HE had no sin. He was the sacrificial "Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world."
He was also perfectly God.
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I believe this is true. Jesus descended to man (lowered Himself) and did become a flesh and bone man. In that way, He was the perfect sacrifice. More importantly, we should understand the blood covenant completely and comprehend exactly what all was given to us when He rose again.

That's probably a whole 'nother thread, but it's where this goes...
 
Chopper said:
I hope you are saying that Jesus did not have two natures. He had only one and that was divine.
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The hypostatic union proposes a fully human nature and a fully divine nature, perfectly joined, without division or separation.

From my perspective I gave up some decades back on trying to put Perfection in a box of my own making as it proved to be impossible, and a vexation of my own imaginations. This of course led me to simply TRUST, which trust has served me well.

When we start nitpicking and vainly trying to define perfection we can fall into every manner of trap and division, as sufficiently noted by the older orthodox sects where they divided from each others over 1-3 words. I consider that kind of an insane form of 'faith' myself. It's intellectualism run amok.
 
Jim Parker said:
If he only had a divine nature then no one is saved.
It was necessary that a human being who was sinless be put to death in order to destroy the power of sin and death.
If Jesus was only divine, then there will be no resurrection of men.
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I would really like Scripture to support your thinking. The human nature is Adams post disobedient nature.
 
Jim Parker said:
He was a perfect human being as God had first created Adam, without sin and perfectly submitted to God.
Therefore, he was the perfect sacrifice for our sins because HE had no sin. He was the sacrificial "Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world."
He was also perfectly God.
Click to expand...

When God created Adam, he had the propensity to sin. Adam was not perfect when created, he was innocent.
 
Chopper said:
When God created Adam, he had the propensity to sin. Adam was not perfect when created, he was innocent.
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To understand Adam we need to see Adam as Paul presents Adam in 1 Cor. 15:42-46.

Adam, the natural man, was literally "bound" with dishonor, weakness and corruption in his natural body which body was "bound" for death, with the intents of a Permanent Spiritual Body, a Second Man, A LAST ADAM. Paul describes this as Gods Way, first the natural, then the Spiritual.

Even the scriptures themselves are put together in this way, first the natural, then the Spiritual.

Jesus, God Himself in the flesh, conformed to this standard by having a natural body which DIED, and then a Glorified Body. The "exception" standard with Jesus is that He Had No sin, no corruption, no dishonor, no weakness, because we are talking God Himself in flesh here. There is the difference.

There is a notion that God had to have a death sacrifice in order to save us. This is a false notion. The entire exercises of Jesus' death, shedding of blood, glorification, is the construct of the FINAL SPIRITUAL BODY, which Body we ALL who believe have our part in. It is the account of His Body.

Hebrews 2:14
Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

With God, it was not just 'all talk no action' on His Part. Just as we are formed in a natural body, bound for death, on our way to His Body, God Himself took part in this matter, Himself, being a natural man, dying a very horrendous but DIVINELY PLANNED death, and a likewise Glorious Resurrection.

IT is problematic for us to perceive, presently, our part in His Body. It is presently HIDDEN, Purposefully, Divinely hidden. We do not see the 'unveiling' of the completed Body until it's completed and ALL THE COMPONENTS are likewise completed.

Colossians 3:3
For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

Hebrews 11:40
God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

In short, there is a Divine Construction Project that has been going on, since Day 1 of mankind.
 
Eugene said:
Hi again Brother Chopper, I've heard doctrine both ways, and I'm glad you're making sure of what you believe.
My opinion tends to take the road that God having been divine from the beginning could not be tempted, and in Php 2:7 But made himself of no reputation (to me this was completely man), and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men. Did Jesus retain His power as God to accomplish overcoming sin? At least not in my opinion or the temptation He suffered and overcame would not have sufficed proving His worthiness to be the sacrificial Lamb required by God without blemish.
Blessings in Christ Jesus. :)
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I like the way you worded it better than I did.
 
Jim Parker said:
Christ was a perfect man and the perfect image of God (2Co 4:4) as man was originally created to be. (Gen 1:26) As such, He did not allow the flesh to determine His actions but only did what the Father did. (Jhn 5:19)
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I agree.
I believe that Jesus, the man, had the ability to sin but not the propensity to sin, God being His father, rather than Adam. He chose to do only what His father told Him to do.
 
Deborah13 said:
Hi Chopper, good to talk to you. :)
So that would mean that the only thing that Jesus got from Mary was a human body. I understood it as He also received a human nature so that He could understand how we are tempted. But His human nature was pure, not contaminated by the fall/Adam's sin, so sinless. Because of His divine nature He would never sin.
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I am in agreement with you on this. He is also the "Son of Man".

Romans 5:17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in the life through the one man, Jesus Christ.
 
Fully man
And
Fully God.

We have an intermediary who actually knows what it is like to be human...All the while having the authority and power to fix it.

Otherwise overcoming sin wasn't a true test.
 
Chopper said:
In my morning devotions and study, I read a statement by John Gill, one of my favorite Theologians, the following....He that descended is the same also that ascended,.... His remarks was based on, Ephesians 4:10 "He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things."

Gill - "It was the same divine Person, the Son of God, who assumed human nature, and suffered in it, which is meant by his descent, who in that nature ascended up to heaven: this proves that Christ existed before he took flesh of the virgin; and that though he has two natures, yet he is but one person.

I don't think that I've ever read anywhere that Jesus Christ, while incarnated in human form, had two natures. Am I wrong?
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I believe so while upon the earth. He was God according to the Spirit and the son of David according to the flesh. (Rom. 1:3-5) The thing that Christ gave up as the Christ was Judgment upon the earth (Matt. 5:17-18) (John 12:47) , but judgment comes with him when he returns with the everlasting Gospel.(Rev. 14:6-7)
  • He was the God / Man
  • Son of David
  • Had all the Supernatural power of God
  • He bleed when cut, got cold, hungry, tired, wept
  • Raised the dead, controlled the environment
  • He was The Messiah / God with us / He forgave sin
But when He returns, He will return as He left, and when we see Him, we will be like Him. But now, we do not know what we will be.
 
Deborah13 said:
God being His father, rather than Adam.
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A VERY IMPORTANT POINT.

As the Holy Spirit "brooded" (like a hen over its eggs) over the lifeless, barren, void so that life would spring from barrenness, (Gen 1:2ff) so the Holy Spirit overshadowed the Virgin Mary and her barren womb (never having conceived - Luke 1:34) and from he r womb, by the power of God, sprang for the Son of God (Luke 1:35 ) IN Whom is life (John 1:4) and Who IS life. (John 14:6)

Therefore; from Mary Jesus received his human nature to be the son of man, as God intended Adam to be, by being the perfect (and sinless) image and likeness of the Father. And, as the Logos who became flesh, (John 1:14) He is eternally God.

iakov the fool
(beaucoup dien cai dau)


DISCLAIMER: By reading the words posted above, you have made a free will choice to expose yourself to the rantings of iakov the fool. The poster assumes no responsibility for any temporary, permanent or otherwise annoying manifestations of cognitive dysfunction that, in any manner, may allegedly be related to the reader’s deliberate act by which he/she has knowingly allowed the above rantings to enter into his/her consciousness. No warrantee is expressed or implied. Individual mileage may vary. And, no, I don't want to hear about it. No sniveling! Enjoy the rest of your life here and the eternal one to come.
 
Chopper said:
I would really like Scripture to support your thinking. The human nature is Adams post disobedient nature.
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That is incorrect.
God created Adam.
Adam was the first Human Being.
Adam's nature was being in the Image and likeness of God. (Gen 1:27)
God said he was good. (Gen 1:31)
Adam's nature was damaged by his disobedience. Prior to his disobedience he was innocent. (Gen 2:25) After his disobedience, he lost his innocence and became aware of the enticement of the lust of the flesh. (Gen 3:7)
Chopper said:
When God created Adam, he had the propensity to sin. Adam was not perfect when created, he was innocent.
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Adam did not have the propensity to sin because he was innocent.
He did have free will which means that he had the potential (not propensity) to sin. (Otherwise God could have simply prevented him from eating the forbidden fruit or have removed any opportunity for disobedience from the garden.)

Adam was enticed by Eve, who had been enticed by Satan, to eat the forbidden fruit and, as a result of that act, he became aware of the existence of evil. Now he knew evil, where as, before, he knew only God Who is Good.
Now to the potential to sin was added the propensity to sin.

That is what man was created for; to know God.
We have no need to know evil for in evil is death.
We were created to know God in whom alone is life.

iakov the fool
(beaucoup dien cai dau)



DISCLAIMER: By reading the words posted above, you have made a free will choice to expose yourself to the rantings of iakov the fool. The poster assumes no responsibility for any temporary, permanent or otherwise annoying manifestations of cognitive dysfunction that, in any manner, may allegedly be related to the reader’s deliberate act by which he/she has knowingly allowed the above rantings to enter into his/her consciousness. No warrantee is expressed or implied. Individual mileage may vary. And, no, I don't want to hear about it. No sniveling! Enjoy the rest of your life here and the eternal one to come.
 
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