question for all christians

[glorydaz]

I believe the sign gifts have ceased...they were given because the Jews required a sign.

I do, though, believe in all the other gifts of the Holy Spirit.
We see them alive and well amongst the believers today.

i am trying to understand what you are saying, glory, i agree the jews asked for a sign but then Jesus told them they would only get one sign and that was the sign of Jonah.
Matthew 12:39 But He answered and said to them, "An evil and adulterous generation craves for a sign; and yet no sign will be given to it but the sign of Jonah the prophet; for just as JONAH WAS THREE DAYS AND THREE NIGHTS IN THE BELLY OF THE SEA MONSTER, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

if a person has the gift of healing today, it seems we both agree on the gifts of the Holy Spirit, and they heal, what is that? Is it not a sign?
what about the gift of faith? if a person prays in faith for something and they receive it, is that not a sign, too?
God is alive and active in us, but it seems you are saying He can not show us this fact with any signs. That He is incapable of showing His glory today, if I am misunderstanding you, then please forgive me, it just seems this is what you are saying.

I'm hoping I addressed your concerns in my last post. I don't think a person is given the gift of healing...As believers, we all can come before the throne of God and pray for healing. The elders in the assembly can annoint with oil and pray for the sick. I do that with my own children.

Some of us are given the gift of discernment, or wisdom. Some are given the gift of teaching...some the gift of hospitality. The gifts of the Spirit are for the edification of the body of believers and we're all given something that we can be used of the Lord.

 

[Cornelius]

Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers,
Rom 8:39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Indeed, none of these things can separate us from the love of God. There is only thing that can and it is mentioned here:Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest haply there shall be in any one of you an evil heart of unbelief, in falling away from the living God:

That is correct. The condition to be kept by God is faith. Not just faith in God, but also faith in what He has spoken to us through His promises. Let us learn to trust in what Hod has promised us, so that we will be found to be in faith, when He returns.

Believe God...do not just believe IN Him.

Hi Cornelius,

Yeah but then how do you reconcile that with Romans 11?

Romans 11:1-6 I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying, 3 “LORD, they have killed Your prophets and torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life�[a] 4 But what does the divine response say to him? “I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.†5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace.[c] But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

Many of the Israelites fell because of unbelief and you are saying they "lost their salvation".
How about the remnant of Israel that did not fall? How come they did not lose their salvation along with the rest?

Do I lose my salvation because I fall into disbelief? Or does God keep me in the faith so I won't lose it? Which one is it?

Let me answer you like this.

You will know if you are one of the elect, if you bear the fruit of the elect.

Blessings
C

 

[Cornelius]

When we meet all the conditions that God gave us in Scripture, God will always come through with a miracle even today.

When we are weak, God is always strong. God ALWAYS answers prayer and His answer is ALWAYS .......YES (Amen)..........when we are in Christ Jesus.(That is one of the conditions ! )

2Co 1:20 For how many soever be the promises of God, in him is the yea: wherefore also through him is the Amen, unto the glory of God through us.

So if you need healing, or another miracle toady: Make sure you are IN Christ. There are two ways to be IN Christ
1) One is to believe it
2) The second is that you must be in agreement with the Word and not add to it , nor take away from it.

blessings
C

 

[Cornelius]

I personally lean towards what glory has mentioned.

Although I don't doubt that the Holy Spirit can truly work a miracle in this world today. I'm skeptical that he still does in the same manner as he did before the Bible was complete. Anything that defies the laws that God created that govern this universe would be extremely rare if there are any that happen at all in todays world. I think that signs and wonders were necessary before the Bible was complete in order to authenticate that the messenger and the message he brings is from God. For instance what seperates Jesus from a nutcase or a messenger of Satan? The fact that He was confirmed with signs and wonders that defied the laws that God created which govern this universe.

For instance we read in Matthew that John the Baptist began to seriously doubt whether or not Jesus was the Messiah.

Matthew 11:1-6 Now it came to pass, when Jesus finished commanding His twelve disciples, that He departed from there to teach and to preach in their cities. 2 And when John had heard in prison about the works of Christ, he sent two of[a] his disciples 3 and said to Him, “Are You the Coming One, or do we look for another?†4 Jesus answered and said to them, “Go and tell John the things which you hear and see: 5 The blind see and the lame walk; the lepers are cleansed and the deaf hear; the dead are raised up and the poor have the gospel preached to them. 6 And blessed is he who is not offended because of Me.â€

The problem I have with things such as speaking in tongues and miracle workers today is that I can't trust them. God issued a warning back to Israel in the Old Testament and I think the same can be applied today. In my own personal preference I avoid *all* kinds of signs and wonders and I'll lean on the Word of God only and alone.

Deuteronomy 13:1 “If there arises among you a prophet or a dreamer of dreams, and he gives you a sign or a wonder, 2 and the sign or the wonder comes to pass, of which he spoke to you, saying, ‘Let us go after other gods’—which you have not known—‘and let us serve them,’ 3 you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams, for the LORD your God is testing you to know whether you love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 You shall walk after the LORD your God and fear Him, and keep His commandments and obey His voice; you shall serve Him and hold fast to Him. 5 But that prophet or that dreamer of dreams shall be put to death, because he has spoken in order to turn you away from the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt and redeemed you from the house of bondage, to entice you from the way in which the LORD your God commanded you to walk. So you shall put away the evil from your midst.

If what you say is true, then the Bible is not true for us who are alive today. Then it would only be true for believers in the time of the Bible's authors. If God stopped after the Bible was written, He must then have given the curse back to you and I , which Jesus took upon Himself.

Gal 3:13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us; for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

What is the curse that the Law brought to humans? Find that out , and then look at what you life should be like now without it. Read Deut 28 : If anything there is happening to you, you are under the curse that Jesus was suppose to take away for you. If you are in Christ, and walking in holiness, then none of that is suppose to come on you, because Jesus took it away. If it comes on you , then you are able, through faith , to overcome the curse. You are SUPPOSE to overcome the curse, every time it comes to you.

C

 

[archangel_300]

Let me answer you like this.

You will know if you are one of the elect, if you bear the fruit of the elect.

Blessings
C

I would believe you if it weren't for Romans 9.

 

[glorydaz]

The ones who are under the curse are those who are under the works of the law....not those who believe the sign gifts have ceased.

For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

 

[Cornelius]

The ones who are under the curse are those who are under the works of the law....not those who believe the sign gifts have ceased.

For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

That is right. When we under grace, we manifestly are able to come out of the curse and rule over it.

That is why its called the GOOD news. We do not have to suffer the curse anymore.

 

[Cornelius]

Let me answer you like this.

You will know if you are one of the elect, if you bear the fruit of the elect.

Blessings
C

I would believe you if it weren't for Romans 9.

Romans 9 confirms what I said.

You have to read the rest of the Bible too and add that to your whole understanding. The elect ALWAYS bear fruit. Thirty, sixty or a hundred fold. That is how you know if you are indeed part of the elect. (Ye shall know them by their fruit)

 

[JamesG]

.
What is fruit?

JamesG

 

[Cornelius]

.
What is fruit?

JamesG

HI JamesG

let me answer you like this : When you plant an apple seed and a apple tree comes up, what fruit do you get from that tree?

Also think about this. During a harvest, do the farmer come for the plant or the fruit of that plant?

OK, now if you believe what the Bible says, you will know that Jesus calls the Word of God .........seed.The Bible also tells us that Jesus is that Word manifested. So its easy to see the "seed" is "Christ" is the "Word"
Now your heart is called "ground" or "soil" by Jesus in the parable of the Sower.God is sowing Christ into your soil and now a plant must come up . When that plant is mature it will bear fruit.

So your answer is in the question: What fruit comes, when we plant an apple seed? What fruit comes unto the tree that sprung up from the Word/Seed of God ?

 

[jasoncran]

wow this isnt really i wanted the op to go.

on miracles, that does go on. but its not for them that dont believe, for them do believe. though the lord can use a miracle to save someone.

signs and wonders follow them that believe. Does this mean that those word faith and name and claim preachers are correct in thier doctrine?

 

[Mysteryman]

Let me answer you like this.

You will know if you are one of the elect, if you bear the fruit of the elect.

Blessings
C

I would believe you if it weren't for Romans 9.

Romans 9 confirms what I said.

You have to read the rest of the Bible too and add that to your whole understanding. The elect ALWAYS bear fruit. Thirty, sixty or a hundred fold. That is how you know if you are indeed part of the elect. (Ye shall know them by their fruit)

Hi C.

What "fruit" are you talking about ? The reason I ask, is because of what I have been reading from your posts. So please explain what fruit you are talking about please.

 

[JamesG]

.
Mysteryman

""What "fruit" are you talking about ? The reason I ask, is because of what I have been reading from your posts. So please explain what fruit you are talking about please.""

Exactamundo. Are we supposed to produce apples?

JamesG

 

[archangel_300]

Let me answer you like this.

You will know if you are one of the elect, if you bear the fruit of the elect.

Blessings
C

I would believe you if it weren't for Romans 9.

Romans 9 confirms what I said.

You have to read the rest of the Bible too and add that to your whole understanding. The elect ALWAYS bear fruit. Thirty, sixty or a hundred fold. That is how you know if you are indeed part of the elect. (Ye shall know them by their fruit)

As God's elect we will bear fruit that is correct. But that's because the seed has been planted within us first.

Romans 9:7-21 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, 7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.†8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed. 9 For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son.â€[c]
10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac 11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.â€[d] 13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.â€[e]
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.â€[f] 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.â€[g] 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.
19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?†20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?†21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

Let's re-read Romans 11...

Romans 11:1-6 I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying, 3 “LORD, they have killed Your prophets and torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life�[a] 4 But what does the divine response say to him? “I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.†5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace.[c] But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

 

[Mysteryman]

The ones who are under the curse are those who are under the works of the law....not those who believe the sign gifts have ceased.

For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

That is right. When we under grace, we manifestly are able to come out of the curse and rule over it.

That is why its called the GOOD news. We do not have to suffer the curse anymore.

Hi C.

You do not rule over the curse ! You do not have to suffer the curse anymore ?

If you walk in unrighteousness, the curse can come back upon you, or anyone.

Did you get your flu shot this year ? And if so, why ? And if not , why ?

Jesus Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law. But those who do not live by faith, are living under the law. And if one is still under the works of the law, they are still under the curse of the law - Gal. 3:10.

The just shall live by faith. But we still see many who want to live not by faith, but by their works. They want to justify themselves by their own works, instead of the faith of Christ which has redeemed us from the curse of the law.

The redeemed from the curse of the law, live by faith. So that the "blessings" of Abraham might come on the Gentiles - Gal. 3:14 - that we might receive the promises of the Spirit through faith. And heirs according to the promise of God - Gal. 3:29. Heirs = rewards !

Galatians 4:7 - "Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son ; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ"

 

[archangel_300]

If what you say is true, then the Bible is not true for us who are alive today. Then it would only be true for believers in the time of the Bible's authors. If God stopped after the Bible was written, He must then have given the curse back to you and I , which Jesus took upon Himself.
C

 

[glorydaz]

The ones who are under the curse are those who are under the works of the law....not those who believe the sign gifts have ceased.

For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

That is right. When we under grace, we manifestly are able to come out of the curse and rule over it.

That is why its called the GOOD news. We do not have to suffer the curse anymore.

The curse we are not under is the law, not the curses that would come on those who disobeyed the law....being under grace means we are no longer under the law. We are no longer to find righteousness by keeping the law because we are justified by grace.

When Jesus took on the curse of the law, he freed us from the law. The curses listed in Deut. were for those under the law. If man puts himself under the law by attempting to work his way into righteousness then the curses will apply. That does not mean we are free from every specific curse mentioned for those who disobey the law, it means we are freed from the law itself. Period.

 

[glorydaz]

Let me answer you like this.

You will know if you are one of the elect, if you bear the fruit of the elect.

Blessings
C

I would believe you if it weren't for Romans 9.

Romans 9 confirms what I said.

You have to read the rest of the Bible too and add that to your whole understanding. The elect ALWAYS bear fruit. Thirty, sixty or a hundred fold. That is how you know if you are indeed part of the elect. (Ye shall know them by their fruit)

And those who "believe" they are producing 100 fold should not look in judgment on those who they assume are producing none or only thirty fold. The fruit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering...who is to say some brother who is fighting some particular sin in his life is not producing fruit? Many justify themselves in the eyes of man, but it's God alone that sees into the heart. Therein lies the danger of "judging" a man by the fruit seen. We will know our brothers by the love of God abiding in their heart, not by whether they walk according to our standards.

 

[glorydaz]

.
What is fruit?

JamesG

Gal. 5: 22-23.....But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

 

[glorydaz]

wow this isnt really i wanted the op to go.

on miracles, that does go on. but its not for them that dont believe, for them do believe. though the lord can use a miracle to save someone.

signs and wonders follow them that believe. Does this mean that those word faith and name and claim preachers are correct in thier doctrine?

No, their doctrine is not correct.
We aren't a name it and claim people.
The just shall live by faith.

The signs of the Apostles, and the writing of the books of the Bible were given to confirm Jesus as the Son of God. Jesus is confirmed by the Word...the Bible has been written. Now we pray and our prayers are heard by God. We no longer require signs and wonders to beleive.

The signs and wonders were given to the Apostles and those who traveled with them.

Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.

And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.

17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; .... 20And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following.

And by the hands of the apostles were many signs and wonders wrought among the people; (and they were all with one accord in Solomon's porch.

Long time therefore abode they speaking boldly in the Lord, which gave testimony unto the word of his grace, and granted signs and wonders to be done by their hands.