RE: Atheist FAQ

[Ignatz]

Like I have said, I understand ideal Christians do not hate. However, you are saying people who do not live up to the ideal are not Christians. I disagree. I still see those who use the faith of Christianity to justify hate are still Christians, and often use scripture to back it up. (example: the god hates fags movement.) This is not a problem exclusively of Christianity; its a problem of religion.

I would agree. In fact, the "justification" for all kinds of horrible atrocities can be found in ANY strongly held belief, be it religious, political , (or nationalism in general) etc. depending on how the proponents of those beliefs interpret and act upon them. An unfortunate thing that occurs to me is that it appears that organized belief structures (in most any form) are responsible for fathoms of tears. This, I think, has less to do with the belief itself in most cases, and has everything to do with our tendency towards xenophobia. Christianity, by definition, states that EVERYONE, including Christians, are fallible, imperfect people. (If we weren’t, there would be no Christianity). Another thing I’ve noticed is that all of the 4 atheists I’ve known were not raised that way. They came from EXTREMELY religious, fundamentalist backgrounds, and are still well versed in the history and beliefs of their former religion.

Having said that, as a non-fundamentalist Christian myself, I’m not sure that atheism can be proved to be responsible for the perceived damage. I imagine that those who think it is would say that abortion, gay marriage, premarital sex, etc. is the result of atheism, although many Christians believe/practice these things. The reason some may think that the world is going down the tubes isn’t because there are too many atheists, but because there are too many self-rightous jerks: atheist and christian and muslim and democrat and republican and vegetarian or whatever. Christians are not always the selfless good guys, and atheists are not necessarily the bad guys destroying society. We all have the ability to do that regardless of our spiritual beliefs, and other Christians have done more damage to my faith than any atheist. What do some other people think of the minister who was seen at that gay rights thing awhile back with the sign that read “God Hates Fags†, or abortion clinic bombings, or the fact that Pat Robertson owns a Diamond mine in Africa?

 

[BenjaminTC]

An interesting fact:

Athesits make up 8-13% of the population in the USA, but less than 1% in America's prisons.

Catholics make up 28% of the population, but make up 40% in American prisons.

Protestants are 50% of the population, and are 35% of the American Prison population.

http://www.holysmoke.org/icr-pri.htm

 

[Quath]

Pretty interesting stuff. What I would like to see the break down of people entering jail. That would remove any effect of conversion while in jail.

Quath

 

[BenjaminTC]

I doubt that factors into it very much. I wonder if many Christians aknoweledge this fact. They are the ones claiming the moral high ground.

 

[GOD'S ARMY]

I doubt that factors into it very much. I wonder if many Christians aknoweledge this fact. They are the ones claiming the moral high ground.

Very interesting. :o : By the way, I am a Mormon, and yep, more Mormons than Atheists. That was a very interesting link and I think you are right about Christians not thinking about it because I never did......but then the Christians on this forum say I am not a Christian, but a Pagan.

 

[Quath]

but then the Christians on this forum say I am not a Christian, but a Pagan.

I think that is because you are too close to their beliefs but not close enough. I have often wondered why more Christians were not Mormon. After all, the evidence for Mormon beliefs seem just as solid as beliefs for Christianity. However, people apply skepticism to religions they were not brought up in, so that may explain it.

If I were Christian, I would have to wonder why Jesus only appeared to a small portion of the World. Was just the Europeans worth saving or should the Chinese, America Indians and more southern Africans derserve to know of Jesus at that time as well?

Quath

 

[Henry]

the evidence for Mormon beliefs seem just as solid as beliefs for Christianity.

This is just totally ignorant, the evidence that supports the bible is far above that of ANY book in the entire world. Archeology alone has shown time and time again the accurecy of the bible, in spite of the sceptics.

The BOM on the other hand does not have a single shread of archeology evidence.

That is just one element.

You see quath, your sceptism blinds you to the real issues here.

 

[Gary]

Misuse of statistics

How easy it is to misuse statistics.

Benjamin: An interesting fact:
Athesits make up 8-13% of the population in the USA, but less than 1% in America's prisons.
Catholics make up 28% of the population, but make up 40% in American prisons.
Protestants are 50% of the population, and are 35% of the American Prison population.

Gary: LOL.... you forget the 20% who would NOT supply an answer. So your margin of error is 20%..... hence, any conclusions are meaningless! Secondly, as Quath suggests (and you so easily ignore).... how many CONVERTED once in prison?

I have not heard or read of many people leaving their religion but there are many thousands of recorded conversions TO religion while in prison.

 

[8000 rads]

For example the presume that rock layers indicate years of build up, and that they can determ the age of the earth by examining the rock layers. However, they did not observe the rock layers being formed so the idea that it took X years, is presumption.

The evidence only proves one thing, there are rock layers.

If you drop a ball it falls to the ground. It does every time. Since you don't have any reason to think it was different one billion years ago, you have to think that objects fell the same way then. Now, if you see some ball on the ground, you know it must have fallen from somewhere. You don't have to see it falling down. You don't just think "hey, a ball has grown out of the ground, like a mushroom!". That is what you are doing by saying "The evidence only proves one thing, there are rock layers".

It is the same thing with rock layers. Instead of a ball, we know how Carbon-14 desintegrates. We KNOW. We have actually SEEN nuclear desintegration processes. It has desintegrated the same way since the world came to being. If God created it, He also created radioactivity. Knowing at what rate C-14 desintegrates, we can calculate the aproximate age of things.

It is how it works. Simple logic. The same way we can predict simple (and complex!) movements with a bunch of equations. If you don't believe this, you are simply living in another world.

Also, rocks are formating at this very moment. You can even see some of those processes in a laboratory. And rocks have formated the same way since the beginning.

I'm repeating this to make sure you get it.


BTW, this icon is sooooo cool!: :robot:

 

[BenjaminTC]

Its also quite easy to misunderstand statistics, as you have displayed.

[

b]Gary:[/b] LOL.... you forget the 20% who would NOT supply an answer. So your margin of error is 20%..... hence, any conclusions are meaningless!

Well, think about it this way: The US prison population in 1997 was 1.2 million and 75,000 prisoners responded to the poll. (75,000)/(1,200,000) = 6.25%

Now have you ever heard of a gallup poll that polled that many people? Most approval rating polls, or opinion polls poll a few thousand people if that, just a sliver of the American population. Does this mean George Bush has a 50% approval rating with a +/- 49.998% margin of error? No. Polls are shifty, but quite often acurate. A 6.25% turnout for a poll is extraordinarily high.

Secondly, as Quath suggests (and you so easily ignore).... how many CONVERTED once in prison? I have not heard or read of many people leaving their religion but there are many thousands of recorded conversions TO religion while in prison.

You have presented something called anicdotal evidence. Unless you support your claims with evidence, which you didn't, they are worthless.

 

[Gary]

Misuse of statistics

How easy it is to misuse statistics.

Benjamin: An interesting fact:
Athesits make up 8-13% of the population in the USA, but less than 1% in America's prisons.
Catholics make up 28% of the population, but make up 40% in American prisons.
Protestants are 50% of the population, and are 35% of the American Prison population.

Gary: LOL.... you forget the 20% who would NOT supply an answer. So your margin of error is 20%..... hence, any conclusions are meaningless!

Benjamin: Well, think about it this way: The US prison population in 1997 was 1.2 million and 75,000 prisoners responded to the poll. (75,000)/(1,200,000) = 6.25%

Now have you ever heard of a gallup poll that polled that many people? Most approval rating polls, or opinion polls poll a few thousand people if that, just a sliver of the American population. Does this mean George Bush has a 50% approval rating with a +/- 49.998% margin of error? No. Polls are shifty, but quite often acurate. A 6.25% turnout for a poll is extraordinarily high.

Gary: You are confusing SAMPLE SIZE with NO ANSWER within that SAMPLE!

I will try and make it simple for you, using your own example. I fully understand the logic and statistics of a sample. And, yes, the sample can be small but still the margin of error can also be small.

In your example, a few thousand people (of the total population) are polled. The pollsters will declare a margin of error of about 5%. That they work out statistically by the size of the sample vs the size of the population. They may also take other factors into consideration. The larger the sample size, the smaller the margin of error.

Now let us move on to the results WITHIN that sample.

Again, using your example, let us assume that we have 4 candidates. Let us call them Christian, Muslim, Buddhist and Atheist. So our voters who are polled can say that they like C or M or B or A. However, they also have the choice to not answer the question. That "no answer" will be classified as NA.

After the poll, we have the following results:

C = 40%
M = 20%
B = 10%
A = 10%
NA = 20%

Now to start drawing conclusions about C and M and B and A WITHOUT considering the NA (the no-answers) is false. You have NO idea how the NA would have voted. So your "swing vote" is 20%.

Above, I called it "margin of error". That is probably wrong. But the fact remains that you cannot draw conclusions about the other percentages (like you did) without the qualification that you could be wrong by a full 20%.

i.e. IF the NA were in fact devious and known for not telling the truth and were really going to vote for A (atheist), the results will eventually look like this:

C= 40%
A = 30%
M = 20%
B = 10%

Get the picture?

:

 

[Guest]

:P This is Great Gary! Thank you so much for bringing this out
into the light!