Reasons to believe hellfire is real.

[Classik]

I even find it hard (or rather uncomfortable) to believe in the truth of the existence of hellfire. Not that I don't believe it exists - it horrifies me to think about such a dreadful place of torment.

The choice is yours

One of the reasons why most people don't believe hellfire exists is that the 'hellfire thing' has to do with an everlasting punishment - no person leaves the place. The fire doesn't grow weak. The punishment does not have a break:shocked. How can a Merciful God do that? God's Mercy isn't forever.

I will just give three reasons to convince us that hellfire is no child's play.

1. Christ came down here and died for us. He was abused, beaten and killed by sinners. What makes you think he will spare you (after such a great sacrifice) if you still fail to change. Imagine a whole God, Jesus, coming down to this rotten stench and dying for man.

2. Hasn't God done a similar thing before? He sent forth rain and water and destroyed the wicked world, saving only the people whom He found good. Can't He still do the same (destroying the wicked ones) using fire - as He has said?

3. Revelation 20:15: And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. (Not my words I didn't say it)

I will leave us to challenge this. Thanks for your input.


(How hot is hellfire? It's not that fire we have in our kitchens. Soldering Iron is horrible - the heat is something else, I know....but, it's nothing to compare to the heat of hellfire. Not just a part of the body is affected - the whole body is completely swallowed up in helllfore:shocked)

 

[Drew]

I even find it hard (or rather uncomfortable) to believe in the truth of the existence of hellfire. Not that I don't believe it exists - it horrifies me to think about such a dreadful place of torment.

If the Bible really taught that eternal hellfire did exist, then, of course, you would be right to suppose that people would be biased against believing it.

But, and I am surprised that I have been led to this conclusion, I do not believe that the Bible actually teaches such a doctrine. I believe that readers (in our time as well as in earlier times) have improperly read metaphorical statements about hellfire and taken them as literal.

I believe the lost are annihilated, not tormented forever.

 

[Classik]

I believe the lost are annihilated, not tormented forever.

That'd be alot better for them. I'm not encouraging sin. Whether hellfire or annihiliation (I still believe hellfire is real) people should try to make heaven.

And Drew, if that is the case (hellfire taken literally), heaven would be seen literal too.

What do you think?

 

[ivorhughjarse]

an eternal creature having no contact with a loving God for eternity is the biggest torment (jail term) and that in itself would burn them up with regret forever because of the great canyon that will always between God and these ones that even if one drop of Gods love was to received by any in Hell then the quenching would be wonderfully refreshing. This is especially after a chance was given, maybe a million chances and God was rejected on each occasion.

The Islamic views that Classik often puts forward are of posts reveling in gore, it's a trait of the God of Islam, this fascination with suffering and why there is such a declaration difference in Islam saying "we will kill for our God" and Christians saying "we will die for our God". Islam saying "take up arms in a holy war (jihad)" and Christians saying "learn war no more and turn our swords into farming tools". Totally different God

 

[Drew]

That'd be alot better for them. I'm not encouraging sin. Whether hellfire or annihiliation (I still believe hellfire is real) people should try to make heaven.

I entirely agree, although I also believe that, while heaven is "real", it is a temporary abode for the redeemed. I believe that the ultimate home for the redeemed is in physical resurrection bodies - like Jesus had - on a redeemed and restored physical earth.

And Drew, if that is the case (hellfire taken literally), heaven would be seen literal too.

Are you asking me this: "Drew, if you are saying eternal hellfire is a metaphor for annihilation, are you not forced to question whether heaven is real?". If this is what you are asking, I can try to answer.

 

[Classik]

Are you asking me this: "Drew, if you are saying eternal hellfire is a metaphor for annihilation, are you not forced to question whether heaven is real?". If this is what you are asking, I can try to answer.

Yes, sir.
Please, answer.

 

[Drew]

Yes, sir.
Please, answer.

First, there is a problem with the basic presumption that "if item A is to be taken metaphorically, then item B must also be taken metaphorically".

There is no such "rule" - a sprawling narrative like the Bible is a complex thing, comprising things that are clearly intended to be taken literally (e.g. that Pilate was governer around 30 AD) and other stuff clearly intended to be taken as a metaphor (such as the account of Lazarus and the rich man in the afterlife).

In this post, I will not argue for the reality of heaven, but will argue for why we should see "hellfire" language as not supporting an eternal torment scenario.

Let's look at Scriptures that make reference to "eternal" fire and see what we can conclude about the Scriptural references to eternality and "foreverness" in specific relation to punishment by fire:

Isaiah 34:9-10
<ST1:p<?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com

</st1:country-region>Edom</ST1:p's streams will be turned into pitch,
her dust into burning sulfur; her land will become blazing pitch!
It will not be quenched night and day;
its smoke will rise forever.
From generation to generation it will lie desolate;
no one will ever pass through it again.

Jude 7
In a similar way, <st1:City w:st="on">Sodom</st1:City> and <st1:City w:st="on">Gomorrah</st1:City> and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

Is smoke rising from <st1:country-region w:st="on">Edom</st1:country-region> today?

Are <st1:City w:st="on">Sodom</st1:City> and <st1:City w:st="on">Gomorrah</st1:City> burning today?

Do you see what I am saying?

 

[thethinkingrebel]

"hellfire" doesnt exist. The fire of Gehenna does however. This is why I dislike the word hell in our bible, the connotation is immediately " eternal concious torment. Yet the bible teaches that death is the result of judgment. Jesus did not descend into hell - he descended into Hades - The realm of the DEAD. That was the punishment that he suffered for is, he defeated death. He did not spend eternity in hell so we dont have to go. He died and rose again.

The fire of Gehenna (lake of fire) is our punishment for sin. It will exist at the end of this age. It will destroy the wicked.

 

[thethinkingrebel]

I entirely agree, although I also believe that, while heaven is "real", it is a temporary abode for the redeemed. I believe that the ultimate home for the redeemed is in physical resurrection bodies - like Jesus had - on a redeemed and restored physical earth.


Are you asking me this: "Drew, if you are saying eternal hellfire is a metaphor for annihilation, are you not forced to question whether heaven is real?". If this is what you are asking, I can try to answer.

I dont know your denomination. But these are the same conclusions i came to after reading rev 20-22.

Heaven is Gods abode, the martyrs in the trib live there to escape the wrath.

The end result is new heaven and new earth. We live on earth.

 

[Free]

There are, of course, problems with every position but it seems to me that an eternal hell is what best fits.

 

[Drew]

"hellfire" doesnt exist. The fire of Gehenna does however. This is why I dislike the word hell in our bible, the connotation is immediately " eternal concious torment. Yet the bible teaches that death is the result of judgment. Jesus did not descend into hell - he descended into Hades - The realm of the DEAD. That was the punishment that he suffered for is, he defeated death. He did not spend eternity in hell so we dont have to go. He died and rose again.

The fire of Gehenna (lake of fire) is our punishment for sin. It will exist at the end of this age. It will destroy the wicked.

I agree with all this.

 

[Drew]

There are, of course, problems with every position but it seems to me that an eternal hell is what best fits.

Well, we finally disagree on something. Knew it had to happen sooner or later....

 

[Free]

Well, we finally disagree on something. Knew it had to happen sooner or later....

Haha. We had a discussion about this before but that was probably more than 2 years ago. I know your weaknesses.

 

[for_his_glory]

Many scriptures depict hell as fire and brimstone burning for eternity, but none of us actually knows what it will look like or feel to be cast there. In my own minds eye I see hell as a place where those who have rejected God, whether they be good or bad people, burning in a torment (fire and brimstone could be a metaphor for torment) of having to see those who have heard the call of God and have accepted Him and now live in a place of paradise with all the fullness of God in all His glory. No more tears, no more hurts, pain sickness, etc, etc. Those in hell are outside the realm of God continuing in all their sin, sickness, hurts, pain tears, etc. etc., but can see those who are in the glory of the Lord like looking through a window and wanting what others have, but will never have it and this is their torment for eternity as they are constantly consumed with the fire that burns in their souls for what they have rejected and now to late to receive.

God said that he would that none should perish, but those who have rejected God and His word are those who will be cast into the lake of fire for eternity by their own choice, even if they do not believe in Heaven or Hell, we believe because we know that Gods word is truth and does not come back void in our lives.
Hosea 4:6,7: Revelation 21:1-8.

 

[Classik]

Thanks, 4 His Glory. How do you consider the account of the flood in the OT?

 

[for_his_glory]

Thanks, 4 His Glory. How do you consider the account of the flood in the OT?

From the beginning of Adam and Eves fall up to the time of Noah mans imaginations brought them to worship their own type of gods and idols to the point that there were none righteous except Noah who found favor in the Lord. It repented God that he even created man and since sin was so rampant amongst the people separating themselves from God He decided to take them out by a great flood that would destroy them and cleanse the land saving Noah and his family to replenish the earth once again and establish a new covenant that he would never cause a great flood again and set His seal in the sky with a rainbow to remind all the generations to come of his promise.

We see this seal today to remind us of a new Earth and New Jerusalem covenant that God will usher down at the time of the end of this age and that God will establish His people once and for all sinless and blameless through His grace and mercy to all who would repent and be made righteous by His righteousness as he sets His seal upon their foreheads.

 

[elijah23]

I think anyone who has committed a serious sin knows hellfire is real.

 

[Pizzaguy]

Ever watch someone burn to death? I mean like with Apollo 1 (do yourself a favor and don't research it), or with the "witch burnings" or Joan of Arc's execution.

They all died in a matter of minutes (minutes that went by for them and those who loved them very slowly).

Now, feel free to build a theology of a God who would do that to His "beloved children" for an eternity. If you can then quote Psalm 107:1 and still hold to your theology - you have one weird psychosis living in your head.

 

[Classik]

:toofunny
The Rich Man and Lazarus, a folktale? A folk tale? A fairy tale? A gist? A picture of what that's to come?:dunno
:toofunny

 

[thethinkingrebel]

:toofunny
The Rich Man and Lazarus, a folktale? A folk tale? A fairy tale? A gist? A picture of what that's to come?:dunno
:toofunny

Jesus adapted a "folk tale" to show the divide between the righteous and unrighteous. The thing is, no conditionalist argues against pain! It will be horrible for the wicked..it just wont be forever.