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Reconsidering Daniel 12:6-7

Jarhead4Jesus said:
There was no disagreement with the math, only with the meaning of the answer given in Daniel 12:7.
That passage only contains the phrase, 'a time, times, and an half', which we both seem to agree is a reference to 3.5 of something.

It appears that our disagreement is in the unit of measure concerning 'a time'.

Given the context of the question in Daniel 12:6, "How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?"

FROM: Daniel 11:2, "Behold, there shall stand up yet three kings in Persia;"
TO: the last wonder, which was given in Daniel 12:2, "...and some to shame and everlasting contempt."

FROM: The end of Daniel's time in Babylon
TO: The great white throne judgement

This was obviously not 3.5 years, or 1,260 years.

Per the original post:
Revelation 20:1-7 = 1,000 = a time (unit of measure)
Hosea 5:15-6:2 = 2,000 = times
Daniel 9:24-27 = 490 = an half

These are the three primary time-based prophecies that began immediately upon the end of Daniel's time in Babylon and connect, one to another, until the great white throne judgment.

If you're interested in receiving the articles/diagrams, please email me at davidgbarnette@gmail.com
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The problem is your trying to stretch it to 'great white throne judgement' which Daniel 12 says nothing about. The 1260 years are the time of the Papal supremacy which came to be called the Dark Ages and finally it received its 'deadly wound' when Napoleon sent his general to take it down in 1798, and then the time of the end would begin.
Here is a very indepth study on this...
"The phrase, “time of the end” is unique to the book of Daniel.18 The prophet was told that his visions would be “shut up” and “sealed” until the “time of the end,” after which “many” would “run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased” (Dan. 12:4).Because this increase in knowledge relates specifically to an understanding of Daniel’s prophecies, the “time of the end” evidently refers to the final period of history leading upto Christ’s return, during which the faithful would gain a deeper understanding of Daniel’s visions. As discussed above, two “how long” questions follow Dan. 12:4, both of which are answered by prophetic time periods. The first time element of 1260 days follows the first “how long” question in reference to the “end” (Dan. 12:5-7). Since the 1260 days equate to 1260 years that extended from A.D. 538 to A.D. 1798, this termination point would witness the arrival of the “end,” or “time of the end.” Daniel’s prophecies have been unsealed since the year A.D. 1798, and knowledge about these prophecies has increased since that time. Furthermore, the time elements of 1290 and 1335 days that follow the second “how long” question are also given in reference to the sealing of Daniel’s prophecies until the “time of the end” (Dan. 12:8-12). Similar to the 1260 years, these two time elements help to explain when the “time of the end” would arrive and when the unsealing of Daniel’s prophecies would take place. Since the 1290 and 1335 days equate to 1290 and 1335 years and concluded in A.D. 1798 and A.D. 1843, this timeframe is to be identified as the time when Daniel’s prophecies would be unsealed and understood by the faithful. This understanding would especially focus on unlocking the meaning of the 2300 years of Dan. 8:14, a point that will be discussed in more detail below. Daniel was told that, during this time (the period between A.D. 1798 and A.D.1843), his prophecies would be understood and speak truth to the people, thus“ standing in their lot at the end of the days” (Dan. 12:13), i.e. at the end of the 1260,1290, 1335, and 2300 prophetic days, which equate to literal years and met their fulfillment between the years A.D. 1798 and A.D. 1844."
 
reddogs said:
The problem is your trying to stretch it to 'great white throne judgement' which Daniel 12 says nothing about. The 1260 years are the time of the Papal supremacy which came to be called the Dark Ages and finally it received its 'deadly wound' when Napoleon sent his general to take it down in 1798, and then the time of the end would begin.
Here is a very indepth study on this...
"The phrase, “time of the end” is unique to the book of Daniel.18 The prophet was told that his visions would be “shut up” and “sealed” until the “time of the end,” after which “many” would “run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased” (Dan. 12:4).Because this increase in knowledge relates specifically to an understanding of Daniel’s prophecies, the “time of the end” evidently refers to the final period of history leading upto Christ’s return, during which the faithful would gain a deeper understanding of Daniel’s visions. As discussed above, two “how long” questions follow Dan. 12:4, both of which are answered by prophetic time periods. The first time element of 1260 days follows the first “how long” question in reference to the “end” (Dan. 12:5-7). Since the 1260 days equate to 1260 years that extended from A.D. 538 to A.D. 1798, this termination point would witness the arrival of the “end,” or “time of the end.” Daniel’s prophecies have been unsealed since the year A.D. 1798, and knowledge about these prophecies has increased since that time. Furthermore, the time elements of 1290 and 1335 days that follow the second “how long” question are also given in reference to the sealing of Daniel’s prophecies until the “time of the end” (Dan. 12:8-12). Similar to the 1260 years, these two time elements help to explain when the “time of the end” would arrive and when the unsealing of Daniel’s prophecies would take place. Since the 1290 and 1335 days equate to 1290 and 1335 years and concluded in A.D. 1798 and A.D. 1843, this timeframe is to be identified as the time when Daniel’s prophecies would be unsealed and understood by the faithful. This understanding would especially focus on unlocking the meaning of the 2300 years of Dan. 8:14, a point that will be discussed in more detail below. Daniel was told that, during this time (the period between A.D. 1798 and A.D.1843), his prophecies would be understood and speak truth to the people, thus“ standing in their lot at the end of the days” (Dan. 12:13), i.e. at the end of the 1260,1290, 1335, and 2300 prophetic days, which equate to literal years and met their fulfillment between the years A.D. 1798 and A.D. 1844."
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Where in scripture does it say that we should substitute the word "years" for "days"? If you can't point to this explicit instruction in the Bible, I think you are adding to the text, something we're told not to do.
 
JT4444 said:
Where in scripture does it say that we should substitute the word "years" for "days"? If you can't point to this explicit instruction in the Bible, I think you are adding to the text, something we're told not to do.
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The fact that a day can signify a year is of crucial importance in the study of prophecy. And that a 'day' can be 'years' was recognized by the Jews as seen in Daniel 9:24-27, and as seen in Jesus' use of the day-year principle in Luke 13 verses 31-33, and in the early church. The Reformers and many others understood this.

Lets start with the prophecy in Daniel 9 in which seventy literal weeks would not be enough time to accomplish all the things mentioned as having to transpire within the scope of Daniel's "seventy-weeks" vision. For this reason, most Biblical scholars view the seventy weeks of Daniel as symbolic years.:

Daniel 9:24-27
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

The 70 week prophecy of Daniel 9 in verse 24, establishes a principle related to prophetic time. Virtually everyone acknowledges that the 70 weeks are not literally 70 weeks, but rather 70 weeks of years, or 490 years. The principle is that in Bible prophecy, you must substitute a period of a year in place of a day. This is the day=year principle. This equation is clearly established in scripture:

Numbers 14:34
King James Version (KJV)
34 After the number of the days in which ye searched the land, even forty days, each day for a year, shall ye bear your iniquities, even forty years, and ye shall know my breach of promise.

In this verse, a relationship between day and year is clear, each day will equate to a literal year. For the forty days that Israel spied in Canaan in unbelief, they would be punished by wandering forty years in the desert.


Ezekiel 4:6
King James Version (KJV)
6 And when thou hast accomplished them, lie again on thy right side, and thou shalt bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days: I have appointed thee each day for a year.

Here again, the equation is stated quite openly, a prophetic day represents a literal year.
 
reddogs said:
Here is a good study and video on it..
www.ministrymagazine.org

The day-year principle

The amazing day-year key can still unlock the prophecies of Daniel and Revelation.
www.ministrymagazine.org

Day-Year Principle | Sabbath School Study Hour | Amazing Facts

The key to unlocking the time prophecies in the Bible is to first understand the day-year principle of interpretation.
www.amazingfacts.org www.amazingfacts.org
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A day can also just be a day. In places where we're told to treat a day as a year, I see no problem. That doesn't mean that we always should read the word "day" as a year.
 
Greetings again Jarhead4Jesus and reddogs,
Jarhead4Jesus said:
Trevor, best of luck with safeguarding those hens.
Click to expand...
Yes, I have lost one bantam hen to the dog(s) next door some years ago, and then lost 5 to a fox one night not that long after. I had a rest for some time, but the wife asked for fresh eggs again, and she had previously paid for the new facility, nearer the house. These lay about six eggs each per week. Hopefully the new pen and run is more secure now and I am more careful. Many years ago I lost 15 in one night to foxes, but this was a shed that was not very secure over the other side of the gully.
Jarhead4Jesus said:
Do you agree that Daniel 12:2,"...and some to shame and everlasting contempt." is a reference to the great white throne judgement?
Click to expand...
I believe that Daniel 12:2 speaks about the period before the 1000 year Kingdom of God. Jesus will return from heaven and raise some of the dead "the many" of Daniel 12:2. Jesus will then judge these resurrected people and some will be approved and given everlasting life and others will be rejected and will suffer for a while, then die and return to the dust.
Jarhead4Jesus said:
Trevor, I wouldn't mind discussing Daniel 8 and 9 as well, but I would rather have that conversation in some other post.
That way, the scope of this post remains centered on the Q&A in Daniel 12:6-7.
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I believe that Daniel 7 mainly speaks about the Western portion of the Roman Empire. I consider Daniel 8 to Daniel 12 speaks of the Eastern area, covering the Medo-Persians, the Greeks and the Eastern portion of the Roman Empire. I suggest if you do not correctly understand Daniel 8 and its purpose together with its time period, then you CANNOT understand Daniel 12 as it is part of the overall picture of Daniel 8-12.
reddogs said:
What issue do you have with the 2300 days...
https://manna.amazingfacts.org/amaz...prophecytruth/documents/2300-day-prophecy.pdf
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That is a good chart and I agree with much of this except for the 2300 years. I have taken and printed an A4 copy and will add this to my SDA box. I gave an explanation of my understanding of the 2300 years in post #4, mainly from BC 334-333 to AD 1967. Among those who to some extent endorsed William Miller's idea concerning AD 1843 or 1844, there were those who supported William Miller who suggested that the earth would be burned and the faithful taken to heaven, others believed in the setting up of the Kingdom on earth to be inhabited by the faithful while the nations were destroyed. The SDAs held on to William Miller's concept and date, but altered what "actually" happened in AD 1843 with what I consider a fantasy concept. Also SDAs have a strange concept of the faithful being king/priests during the 1000 years.

The third group which I endorse believed that Jesus would convert a significant remnant of natural Israel, and subdue the nations and these two groups would be the mortal inhabitants during the 1000 years. Jesus will sit upon the Temple Throne of David in Jerusalem and the faithful will rule with him as king / priests over Israel and the nations for the 1000 years, with Jesus Isaiah 2:1-4.

Kind regards
Trevor
 
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Jarhead4Jesus said:
I agree that the passage in Daniel 12:11, "And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days." is referring to a 3.5 year period.

Although, that time period is NOT:
FROM the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away,
TO the abomination that maketh desolate setup.

The passage clearly states that it is:
FROM the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away,
AND the abomination that maketh desolate set up,
(*Note the comma placement in the original passage)

The TO would be the second coming of Christ (sanctuary shall be cleansed).
(Daniel 7:25 and 8:13-14)

Please forgive me if I misunderstood what you were trying to say.
Click to expand...
It doesn't say anything about Jesus Christ.
There are two separate events listed.The daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination of desolation is set up.Besides these two events there is a number of days given.1290 days.

It's like God telling Noah what day it will rain.God is informing the saints 1290 days in advance of the nuke that the armed forces place in Jerusalem.The day to hat will burn with a fervent heat and the elements shall melt.
 
Shilohsfoal said:
It doesn't say anything about Jesus Christ.
There are two separate events listed.The daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination of desolation is set up.Besides these two events there is a number of days given.1290 days.

It's like God telling Noah what day it will rain.God is informing the saints 1290 days in advance of the nuke that the armed forces place in Jerusalem.The day to hat will burn with a fervent heat and the elements shall melt.
Click to expand...
I think we may be talking past each other concerning Daniel 12:11. Please read my previous response more closely.
 
Trevor, you wrote,
"I believe that Daniel 12:2 speaks about the period before the 1000 year Kingdom of God. Jesus will return from heaven and raise some of the dead "the many" of Daniel 12:2. Jesus will then judge these resurrected people and some will be approved and given everlasting life and others will be rejected and will suffer for a while, then die and return to the dust."

That contradicts Revelation 20:5, "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished."

Daniel 12:2 and Revelation 20:4-6 are speaking about the same two resurrections.

The 'First Resurrection' occurs right before the thousand year reign of Christ, and the 'rest of the dead' are raised after the thousand year reign of Christ and go straight to the great white throne judgement.

In scripture, the righteous and the wicked are never resurrected together.
 
JT4444 said:
A day can also just be a day. In places where we're told to treat a day as a year, I see no problem. That doesn't mean that we always should read the word "day" as a year.
Click to expand...
Very true, one has to study and understand what is meant to be prophecy and what is just a comment on a day etc.. But when its clearly being given as a prophecy with a time line, then it has to be taken into account, and this is well known by Bible Scholars, in fact even back when it was being written. Here is a good explanation...
"The day/year principle is an old principle already recognized by the Jews, even before the time of Christ.
However it was Abbot Joachim, of Floris, who in 1190, applied the day/year principle to the 1260 days.
His “disciple”, the scientist, physician, Villanova, agreed with Joachim and applied the year-day principle to the 2300 days as well. (Froom 1:751-752)

Francois du Jon (c.1545-1602), Huguenot leader, lawyer, theologian, preacher, gives his reason for the year-day principle:

"Daies is commonly taken as yeares, that God in this sort might shew the time to be short, and that the space of time is definitely set downe by Him in His counsaile. The daies must be reckoned for so many yeares, after the example of the Prophets Ezechiel and Daniel." (Francois du Ion, The Apocalyps, 1596 p. 124, cited by Froom 2:624.)
Georg Nigrinus (1530-1602), Evangelical theologian and teacher, and prolific exegete, chiefly on prophecy. In an argument dealing with the Jesuit arguments over the three and a half year (1260 days) Nigrinus cited Tertullians recognition of the fact that pagan Rome in his day was holding back the coming of Antichrist, Nigrinus discusses Antichrist’s allotted time period, and cites the verdict of the Bible:

"This Jesuit further contends that the papacy cannot be antichrist because the papacy has lasted for centuries, but that the antichrist is supposed to reign only 3 ½ years….But no one doubts today that Daniel spoke of year-days, not literal days….The prophetic time-periods of forty-two months, 1260 days, 1,2,½ times are prophetic, and according to Ezekiel 4, a day must be taken for a year. (Nigrinus, "Antichrists Grundtliche Offenbarung" fils 28v,29r cited in Froom 2:328)


John Napier (1550-1617), distinguished Scottish mathematician, celebrated inventor of logarithms, introducer of the present use of the decimal point, inventor of a mechanical device for the performance of multiplication, division, and extraction of square and cube roots, says this about the year-day principle: "In propheticall dates of daies, weekes, monethes, and yeares, everie common propheticall day is taken for a yeare." (Froom 2:457.)
Puritan John Cotton (1584-1652) of Massachusetts was the first Puritan expositor of the New World. Froom, speaking about Cotton, says, "Prophetic interpretation thus starts in America with the clear recognition of the year-day principle. This should ever be remembered." (Froom 3:38.)

Aaron Burr (1716-1757) Presbyterian Minister in Connecticut, wrote:

These several Numbers (1260 days, forty-two months, or three and a half times) in prophetic Stile, taking a Day for a Year, make the same period 1260 Years. So long the persecuting power of the Beast will continue; and while it does, the church will be in a wilderness state, and the faithful Ministers of Christ will prophesy in sackcloth. (Aaron Burr, The Watchman's Answer to the Question, What of the Night p.21, cited in Froom 3:199)

The Protestant Reformers were well established on the day/year principle."http://dedication.www3.50megs.com/dan/year_day.html
 
From then to the end of the thousand year reign of Christ is 3500 years.

14 He said to me, “It will take 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the sanctuary will be reconsecrated.”
In 167 BC the Hellenistic Jews took over the temple.
2,300 - 167BC = 2,133AD.
 
Three Shepherds And The Revoked Covenant



Zechariah 11:7-11. Three Shepherds And The Revoked Covenant.


Zechariah 11
7 So I pastured the flock marked for slaughter, particularly the oppressed of the flock. Then I took two staffs and called one Favor and the other Union, and I pastured the flock.
8 In one month I got rid of the three shepherds.
The flock detested me, and I grew weary of them 9 and said, "I will not be your shepherd. Let the dying die, and the perishing perish. Let those who are left eat one another's flesh."
10 Then I took my staff called Favor and broke it, revoking the covenant I had made with all the nations.
11 It was revoked on that day, and so the afflicted of the flock who were watching me knew it was "The Word" [Yahshua] of [the Lord / Yahwah.]

The Sanhedrin (Hebrew and Aramaic: סנהדרין; Greek: Συνέδριον, synedrion, "sitting together," hence "assembly" or "council") was an assembly of twenty-three or seventy-one rabbis appointed to sit as a tribunal in every city in the ancient Land of Israel.

The Sadducees were members of a Jewish sect founded in the second century BC, possibly as a political party. They ceased to exist sometime after the first century AD.

The Pharisee were founded in 167 BC, they were a ("separatist") party that emerged largely out of a group of scribes and sages. Their name comes from the Hebrew and Aramaic parush or parushi, which means "one who is separated.


Thus the Three Shepherds: Sanhedrin, Sadducees, and Pharisees.


Mourning for the One They Pierced

Zechariah 12:10 “And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look upon [me / him], the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.
 
reddogs said:
Very true, one has to study and understand what is meant to be prophecy and what is just a comment on a day etc.. But when its clearly being given as a prophecy with a time line, then it has to be taken into account, and this is well known by Bible Scholars, in fact even back when it was being written. Here is a good explanation...
"The day/year principle is an old principle already recognized by the Jews, even before the time of Christ.
However it was Abbot Joachim, of Floris, who in 1190, applied the day/year principle to the 1260 days.
His “disciple”, the scientist, physician, Villanova, agreed with Joachim and applied the year-day principle to the 2300 days as well. (Froom 1:751-752)

Francois du Jon (c.1545-1602), Huguenot leader, lawyer, theologian, preacher, gives his reason for the year-day principle:

"Daies is commonly taken as yeares, that God in this sort might shew the time to be short, and that the space of time is definitely set downe by Him in His counsaile. The daies must be reckoned for so many yeares, after the example of the Prophets Ezechiel and Daniel." (Francois du Ion, The Apocalyps, 1596 p. 124, cited by Froom 2:624.)
Georg Nigrinus (1530-1602), Evangelical theologian and teacher, and prolific exegete, chiefly on prophecy. In an argument dealing with the Jesuit arguments over the three and a half year (1260 days) Nigrinus cited Tertullians recognition of the fact that pagan Rome in his day was holding back the coming of Antichrist, Nigrinus discusses Antichrist’s allotted time period, and cites the verdict of the Bible:

"This Jesuit further contends that the papacy cannot be antichrist because the papacy has lasted for centuries, but that the antichrist is supposed to reign only 3 ½ years….But no one doubts today that Daniel spoke of year-days, not literal days….The prophetic time-periods of forty-two months, 1260 days, 1,2,½ times are prophetic, and according to Ezekiel 4, a day must be taken for a year. (Nigrinus, "Antichrists Grundtliche Offenbarung" fils 28v,29r cited in Froom 2:328)


John Napier (1550-1617), distinguished Scottish mathematician, celebrated inventor of logarithms, introducer of the present use of the decimal point, inventor of a mechanical device for the performance of multiplication, division, and extraction of square and cube roots, says this about the year-day principle: "In propheticall dates of daies, weekes, monethes, and yeares, everie common propheticall day is taken for a yeare." (Froom 2:457.)
Puritan John Cotton (1584-1652) of Massachusetts was the first Puritan expositor of the New World. Froom, speaking about Cotton, says, "Prophetic interpretation thus starts in America with the clear recognition of the year-day principle. This should ever be remembered." (Froom 3:38.)

Aaron Burr (1716-1757) Presbyterian Minister in Connecticut, wrote:

These several Numbers (1260 days, forty-two months, or three and a half times) in prophetic Stile, taking a Day for a Year, make the same period 1260 Years. So long the persecuting power of the Beast will continue; and while it does, the church will be in a wilderness state, and the faithful Ministers of Christ will prophesy in sackcloth. (Aaron Burr, The Watchman's Answer to the Question, What of the Night p.21, cited in Froom 3:199)

The Protestant Reformers were well established on the day/year principle."http://dedication.www3.50megs.com/dan/year_day.html
Click to expand...
If it's 1,260 years, who is speaking against the Most High? When does the 1,260-year period begin and when does it end?
 
The question in Daniel 12:6, "How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?"

The timeframe is from Daniel 11:2 ,"and now I shew thee the truth. Behold, there shall stand up yet three kings in Persia;" to Daniel 12:2, "...and some to shame and everlasting contempt."

FROM: Three Persian kings
TO: The great white throne judgement

Does anyone dispute that these are the FROM / TO parameters of the question in Daniel 12:6 ?
 
Jarhead4Jesus said:
The question in Daniel 12:6, "How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?"

The timeframe is from Daniel 11:2 ,"and now I shew thee the truth. Behold, there shall stand up yet three kings in Persia;" to Daniel 12:2, "...and some to shame and everlasting contempt."

FROM: Three Persian kings
TO: The great white throne judgement

Does anyone dispute that these are the FROM / TO parameters of the question in Daniel 12:6 ?
Click to expand...
Which kings?
 
You need to solve for a unknown.
Add these three numbers 1335 1290 1260

What is the lowest common denominator that we go into those three numbers? Divide that number by the lowest common denominator.

Sometimes a parable has more than one meaning.
 
CherubRam said:
You need to solve for a unknown.
Add these three numbers 1335 1290 1260

What is the lowest common denominator that we go into those three numbers? Divide that number by the lowest common denominator.

Sometimes a parable has more than one meaning.
Click to expand...
1260 (day or year) is not relevant to the Q&A in Daniel 12:6-7.
1290 and 1335 are only relevant to the specific timeframe given in Daniel 12:11.
 
JT4444 said:
Which kings?
Click to expand...
It does not matter who the three Persian kings were, the mighty king (11:3-4), is well understood to have been Alexander the Great.

Because of this, the answer in Daniel 12:7, "...it shall be for a time, times, and an half;" cannot equal 3.5 years.
Therefore, it cannot be made to equal 1,260 years.

The answer was provided through three prophets, Daniel, Hosea, and John.

Daniel 9:24-27 (an half - 490 years)
Hosea 5:15-6:2 (times - 2,000 years)
Revelation 20:1-7 (a time - 1,000 years)

Layers of conversion are not needed, a straight line can be drawn through each of these.
 
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