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Reconsidering Daniel 12:6-7

Shilohsfoal said:
The false prophet and the beast are cast into the lake of fire 1000 years before the great white throne judgement.

The great tribulation takes place in Daniel 12:1


Daniel 12:1
Brenton Septuagint Translation

And at that time Michael the great prince shall stand up, that stands over the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of tribulation, such tribulation as has not been from the time that there was a nation on the earth until that time: at that time thy people shall be delivered, even every one that is written in the book.


a time of tribulation, such tribulation as has not been from the time that there was a nation on the earth until that time
mathew 24:21
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
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Right, but the passage doesn't end at Daniel 12:1, it ends at Daniel 12:4. There are other primary events that occur AFTER the Great Tribulation that are mentioned by the 'man clothed in linen'. Therefore, the mention of the Great Tribulation is not the final subject, it's not 'the end of these wonders', like the question was asking. The final event mentioned was the Great White Throne Judgement.
 
for_his_glory said:
Daniel 11 teaches us about the kings of the north and south and Daniel 12 is teaching about the time of the end right before the return of Christ. No where in scripture does it mention a seven year "Great Tribulation", but only seven trumpets of God's fierce wrath being poured out into the world in the end of days. Scripture says we will always have tribulations as the last time will be such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be, Matthew 24:21; Deut 4:30-31; 7:19; 29:1-6; 1 Samuel 26:24; Matthew; John 16:33; Romans 12:12; 24:21; James 1:2; 1 Peter 1:6.
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Again, thank you for that. But whether the Tribulation will or won't be is not the focus of this post. This post is based on the premise that there will be a 7-year Tribulation, but that it is not the subject of the answer given in Daniel 12:7.
 
Shilohsfoal said:
The time of the end is in Daniel 11:40.


Daniel 11:40
40 And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over.


Daniel 11:1-39 are events that take place in the decades before 11:40 and Jesus comes in Daniel 12:1.

Daniel 11:31-12:1 corresponds to the events Jesus gave in the Olivet discourse.They cover the last 3.5 years or a time,times and a half before the coming of Jesus.


I agree,there is no 7 year great tribulation.
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The expectation is a 7-year Tribulation, the Great Tribulation is the last half of that, where the 3.5 years comes in.

Again, that was not the final subject that was discussed in the passage. The final subject was the Great White Throne Judgement. Discussion about the Tribulation is futile, since the very next verse, Daniel 12:2 is talking about two different resurrections, on either end of the thousand-year reign of Christ.

The question in Daniel 12:6 was, "How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?"
 
Jarhead4Jesus said:
Right, but the passage doesn't end at Daniel 12:1, it ends at Daniel 12:4. There are other primary events that occur AFTER the Great Tribulation that are mentioned by the 'man clothed in linen'. Therefore, the mention of the Great Tribulation is not the final subject, it's not 'the end of these wonders', like the question was asking. The final event mentioned was the Great White Throne Judgement.
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The question was asked about the end of these wonders which they were discussing.Not events they were not discussing like the great white throne judgement that is not mentioned.
 
Jarhead4Jesus said:
The expectation is a 7-year Tribulation, the Great Tribulation is the last half of that, where the 3.5 years comes in.

Again, that was not the final subject that was discussed in the passage. The final subject was the Great White Throne Judgement. Discussion about the Tribulation is futile, since the very next verse, Daniel 12:2 is talking about two different resurrections, on either end of the thousand-year reign of Christ.

The question in Daniel 12:6 was, "How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?"
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There is no 7 year tribulation.There is a 3.5 year persecution of the saints in Israel .That's all.

The great tribulation does not last 3.5 years.It didn't take 3.5 years for Noah's flood to cleanse the land and it's not going to take that long at the time of the end.Perhaps 45 days maybe.Thats about it.
 
Jarhead4Jesus said:
In conclusion, the answer given in Daniel 12:7, "it shall be for a time, times, and an half;" means 3,500 years.
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Why are the other two time periods in 12:11-12 - 1290 days and 1335 days - specifically limited to days? Also, you forgot about the same term in Daniel 7:25, this is specifically referring to the reign of the Little Horn, also known as the Antichrist. How on earth does the millennial reign fit into that? This is NOT a different time period, it's the same time period in 12:7.

He shall speak pompous words against the Most High,
Shall persecute the saints of the Most High,
And shall intend to change times and law.
Then the saints shall be given into his hand
For a time and times and half a time.
 
Shilohsfoal said:
There is no 7 year tribulation.There is a 3.5 year persecution of the saints in Israel .That's all.

The great tribulation does not last 3.5 years.It didn't take 3.5 years for Noah's flood to cleanse the land and it's not going to take that long at the time of the end.Perhaps 45 days maybe.Thats about it.
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It took 5 months, didn't it? That's the length of God's holy wrath, and the same length is prophesied in Revelation.
 
Carry_Your_Name said:
Why are the other two time periods in 12:11-12 - 1290 days and 1335 days - specifically limited to days? Also, you forgot about the same term in Daniel 7:25, this is specifically referring to the reign of the Little Horn, also known as the Antichrist. How on earth does the millennial reign fit into that? This is NOT a different time period, it's the same time period in 12:7.

He shall speak pompous words against the Most High,
Shall persecute the saints of the Most High,
And shall intend to change times and law.
Then the saints shall be given into his hand
For a time and times and half a time
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I wrote an article on the topic in order to give the full explanation.
It can be found at this link: Reconsidering Daniel 12:6-7
or if you prefer, email me at davidgbarnette@gmail.com and I'll send it back to you.
Unfortunately, it won't let me post attachments here without a monetary 'donation.'
 
Here is a link to the final and complete explanation. I added new info about the relationship between Daniel 7 and Daniel 11-12, as well as a page with the Strong's Concordance references showing that the 'time, times, and an half' of Daniel 12:7 should not be interpreted the same as Daniel 7:25 and Revelation 12:14.

Reconsidering Daniel 12:6-7
 
Jarhead4Jesus said:
Daniel 12 contains a very interesting Q&A.

v6 (Question) "How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?"
v7 (Answer) "it shall be for a time, times, and an half;"

If you've been around (Sunday school) for a while that phrase, 'time, times, and an half' would probably sound familiar.
That's because a similar phrase is also found in Daniel 7:25 (a time and times and the dividing of time.) and in Revelation 12:14 (a time, and times, and half a time).

For brevities sake, I will not give an exhaustive explanation here. But that phrase, in all of it's forms, has come to be understood as meaning a three and a half (3.5) year period of time.

Time = 1
Times = 2
Half = .5
Total = 3.5

It's worth your time to revisit the surrounding text of each of those verses.

It is generally understood that these 3.5 years are the amount of time between the abomination of desolation (at the middle of the Tribulation) and the second coming of Christ. In context, I agree. That is a reasonable explanation for the phrase in Daniel 7:25 and in Revelation 12:14. However, in context, it is not a reasonable explanation for the phrase in Daniel 12:7.

When we take a closer look at the question, and the discussion that leads up to the question, we find that a 3.5 year period of time cannot be a reasonable explanation.

The question is certainly soliciting a time-based response. But there are no specific parameters given that even imply the abomination of desolation, the second coming of Christ, or even the Tribulation. In fact, it's asking for the amount of time until the 'end of these wonders'. So, what was the last 'wonder' that was given?

Daniel 12:2-3 contain the last event given.
"And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever."

There is only one event given in scripture, where the dead are 'awaken' to 'shame and everlasting contempt'. That event is called the 'great white throne judgement' and it's found in Revelation 20:11-15.

It's relevant to note, that the messianic prophecy that began in Genesis 3:15, is finished in Revelation 20:15.

So the question in Daniel 12:6 is actually asking how long it will be until the end of the great white throne judgement.

Thus, the answer cannot be 3.5 years.

If we look at the prophecies from Daniel's time until the 'end of these wonders', we find that there are three large time-based prophecies.

Daniel 9:24-26 is the '70 weeks' prophecy
Hosea 5:15-6:2 is the 'after two-days' prophecy
and Revelation 20:1-10 is the reign of Christ prophecy

Time = the 1,000 year reign of Christ
Times = the 2,000 years from Christ's ascension to the Tribulation
Half = the '70 weeks' prophecy which is 490 years.

There's also a short time between the second coming of Christ and the beginning of His thousand-year reign, and a 'little season' that Satan will be released to deceive the nations.

In conclusion, the answer given in Daniel 12:7, "it shall be for a time, times, and an half;" means 3,500 years.
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Hello JH4J, I can answer pretty easy the question put forth about is it days or years. Rev. 12 tells us, God used it twice there, a time, times and half AND 1260 days, and it correlates with Israel (the Women) fleeing into the wilderness for 1260 days, that quashing any argument that this was ever about 1260 years. Dam. 12:7 even states that from the time the holy peoples power (Israel Governing themselves) is scattered, there will be 1260 days until all these wonders end. Well, what wonders? Not Dan. 12:1-2, that comes after Jesus' return. Daniel 11:36-45 is those wonders, the A.C. conquering Israel and the Mediterranean Sea Region. We see it says in vs. 45 the A.C. comes to his end, that means Jesus returned right there, the 1260 days of the Beasts rule has to end right there, he dies.

I will make the other two numbers simple, notice Daniel asks the exact same question in vs. 8 that the angel asks Jesus (Man in Linen) in vs. 6, when will all these "things end" so, why would the symmetry change? What ended these wonders also ends these "things" and Daniel had no clue, of course. but that would be the 2nd coming of Jesus who slays the beast in vs. 45. We are not told specifically that Dan. 12"7 is the Little Horn/A.C. we just figure it out from scriptures elsewhere, likewise the other two numbers are dates which are that many days until Jesus' 2nd coming. So, the 1290 comes 30 days before the 1260, and the 1335 comes 75 days before the 1260 and all three end via the 2nd coming of Jesus.

The Two-witnesses are the 1335, they must show up before the Beast to turn Israel back unto God, Malachi 4:5 says this and Zech. 13:8-9 shows they repent just before the DOTL arrives in Zech. 14:1-2. The two-witnesses also die at the 2nd woe whilst the beast dies later at the 7th vial. Since both have ordained offices of 1260 days, how can that be unless the two-witnesses show up first? The 1290 is not the A.C. he only becomes the Beast 30 days later, it is his right hand man, the False Prophet (a Jewish High Priest like unto Jason under Antiochus). Rev. 13 even says he gets the peoples to make an image if the beast. In Dan. 9:27 we see the prince to come (A.C.) "causes" the sacrifice to be taken away and the AoD, so hes asserting political pressure from afar because he is not allowed to go forth conquering until the 1260 event. How so? Israel will join the E.U. that is what starts the 70th week, God's anger is rekindled at that very moment.

P.S. its not a Meat Sacrifice that is taken away, its this False Prophet stopping the 1/3 who repent from worshiping Jesus in the temple, maybe in all Israel. Dan. 10-12 is all one vision.
 
Rondmon said:
Hello JH4J, I can answer pretty easy the question put forth about is it days or years. Rev. 12 tells us, God used it twice there, a time, times and half AND 1260 days, and it correlates with Israel (the Women) fleeing into the wilderness for 1260 days, that quashing any argument that this was ever about 1260 years. Dam. 12:7 even states that from the time the holy peoples power (Israel Governing themselves) is scattered, there will be 1260 days until all these wonders end. Well, what wonders? Not Dan. 12:1-2, that comes after Jesus' return. Daniel 11:36-45 is those wonders, the A.C. conquering Israel and the Mediterranean Sea Region. We see it says in vs. 45 the A.C. comes to his end, that means Jesus returned right there, the 1260 days of the Beasts rule has to end right there, he dies.

I will make the other two numbers simple, notice Daniel asks the exact same question in vs. 8 that the angel asks Jesus (Man in Linen) in vs. 6, when will all these "things end" so, why would the symmetry change? What ended these wonders also ends these "things" and Daniel had no clue, of course. but that would be the 2nd coming of Jesus who slays the beast in vs. 45. We are not told specifically that Dan. 12"7 is the Little Horn/A.C. we just figure it out from scriptures elsewhere, likewise the other two numbers are dates which are that many days until Jesus' 2nd coming. So, the 1290 comes 30 days before the 1260, and the 1335 comes 75 days before the 1260 and all three end via the 2nd coming of Jesus.

The Two-witnesses are the 1335, they must show up before the Beast to turn Israel back unto God, Malachi 4:5 says this and Zech. 13:8-9 shows they repent just before the DOTL arrives in Zech. 14:1-2. The two-witnesses also die at the 2nd woe whilst the beast dies later at the 7th vial. Since both have ordained offices of 1260 days, how can that be unless the two-witnesses show up first? The 1290 is not the A.C. he only becomes the Beast 30 days later, it is his right hand man, the False Prophet (a Jewish High Priest like unto Jason under Antiochus). Rev. 13 even says he gets the peoples to make an image if the beast. In Dan. 9:27 we see the prince to come (A.C.) "causes" the sacrifice to be taken away and the AoD, so hes asserting political pressure from afar because he is not allowed to go forth conquering until the 1260 event. How so? Israel will join the E.U. that is what starts the 70th week, God's anger is rekindled at that very moment.

P.S. its not a Meat Sacrifice that is taken away, its this False Prophet stopping the 1/3 who repent from worshiping Jesus in the temple, maybe in all Israel. Dan. 10-12 is all one vision.
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You was doing pretty well till you got to the two witnesses ,then it all fell apart from.there.

You may want to consider the king of the norths armed forces which is given to the Israeli government in Daniel 11:31 has leaders who are witnesses of Jesus Christ. Those armed forces take commands such as fire commands.


Revelation 11:
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed

Fire commands are oral orders issued by leaders to focus and distribute fires as required achieving decisive effects against the enemy. They allow leaders to rapidly and concisely articulate their firing instructions using a standard format (Refer to TC 3-20.31-4 for more information).


I have family members in the armed forces of the north.I understand it's demographics and much of what they believe.And the people of Israel would just love to have this army protecting them.Their children are sacrificing themselves and about 22 died yesterday.


PS
Another thing to consider,
Scripture does not say the two witnesses are good guys.
 
Jarhead4Jesus said:
Please read the article Reconsidering Daniel 12:6-7

If you have a question or a specific disagreement about a point made in the article, please address that here.

Please take other unrelated topics to another post.
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It's related.
The two witnesses and the mark of the beast is within that time ,times and a half in Israel.

It's as if you don't understand why the saints are persecuted for that time,times and a half in Daniel 11:33-35.
 
If you read the article you would notice that the Saint's are not persecuted during the 'time, times, and an half' that Daniel 12:7 is talking about. Daniel 12:7 is not a reference to the Great Tribulation (like Daniel 7:25 and Revelation 12:14). It is a reference to the 'little season' which takes place immediately after the Millennial Kingdom. Thus, the two witnesses and the mark of the beast are not at all relevant to this post.

If you disagree, that's fine. Please share your evidence.
 
Jarhead4Jesus said:
If you read the article you would notice that the Saint's are not persecuted during the 'time, times, and an half' that Daniel 12:7 is talking about. Daniel 12:7 is not a reference to the Great Tribulation (like Daniel 7:25 and Revelation 12:14). It is a reference to the 'little season' which takes place immediately after the Millennial Kingdom. Thus, the two witnesses and the mark of the beast are not at all relevant to this post.

If you disagree, that's fine. Please share your evidence.
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The two witnesses arrive in Israel in Daniel 11:31
and the persecution of the saints who do not worship the beast or it's image takes place from Daniel 11:33 to the time of the end In Daniel 12:1.

These events take place before the millinial kingdom as the resurection.of Daniels people in Daniel 12:1-2 take place before the millinial kingdom.Daniels people are the saints who reign with Christ during the millinial kingdom.

Exodus 9:16
And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

Revelation 20:6
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


Revelation 20:6 is the fulfillment of Exodus 9:16 and the saints in revelation 20:6 are resurected In Daniel 12:2.


Daniels people keep the Sabbath which is the 7th millinium.
 
The time,times and a half is the 3.5 years from.the time the daily sacrifice is abolished in Daniel 11:31 to the time the abomination of desolation is placed on Jerusalem in Daniel 12:1.
The great tribulation mentioned in Daniel 12;1 is caused by the abomination of desolation which is used to destroy and innihilate many.



Daniel 12:6-7
One of them said to the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, “How long will it be before these astonishing things are fulfilled?”
The man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, lifted his right hand and his left hand toward heaven, and I heard him swear by him who lives forever, saying, “It will be for a time, times and half a time. When the power of the holy people has been finally broken, all these things will be completed.”



The persecution of the saints in Daniel 11:33-35 takes place before the great tribulation on Daniel 12:1. The e great tribulation is the time of Gods wrath when the two witnesses ascend into heaven in a cloud.
 
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