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Regaining Salvation...

Cygnus said:
I have to think you are saying everytime we sin we lose our salvation.
No, it is not! Please count the number of times John mentioned "fellowship" in 1 John 1 BEFORE he wrote v.9.
The point is that sin breaks fellowship with God. Not relationship. And confession of our sins provides forgiveness and cleanses us, which is another way to say restores fellowship. Just as Jesus washed the feet of His disciples in John 13. In that day, walking on their "roads", which they shared with animals, one's feet would get covered in animal excrement. It was NECESSARY to clean the feet before entering anyone's house or business. iow, there could be no fellowship in visiting a friend if your feet weren't cleansed. They wouldn't even let you in.
And thanks to good ol' Peter (pebble), because he wanted a whole bath again, Jesus had the opportunity to teach about fellowship, which is what "abiding" is all about.
In fact, Jesus plainly told him that he was "already clean", meaning "already saved" and didn't need a whole bath again. But his feet needed daily cleansing. And Jesus also noted that "not all of you are clean", a clear reference to Judas, who wasn't saved.
Sounds right to me.
The question wasn't answered. If one can lose salvation, how many times can one regain salvation?
Probably as often as one can repent.
BUT (<--- big but) "For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they then commit apostasy, since they crucify the Son of God on their own account and hold him up to contempt. (Heb 6:4-6 RSV)
Note that "sin" and "apostasy" are not the same thing.

iakov the fool
 
Amen. A solid promise that those who believe can stand on!

However, those who believe for a while, then return to unbelieving are not promised anything except hell.
JLB
How come no one has quoted ANY verses that teach such a thing?? Where are they? Why should anyone believe such a thing when there are NO verses that teach such a thing?
 
Grace is not a license to sin.
Apparently my post wasn't read again. Jude 4 tells us WHO "changes grace into a license for immorality". It's those who DENY Jesus Christ.

So, one HAS TO CHANGE grace in order for there to be this "license".

Biblical grace teaches that BECAUSE we are eternally saved, we should ACT like it. Out of gratitude and love.

People who are taught false doctrine, think they can use grace as a license to sin, not understanding that those who call on the name of the Lord are to depart from iniquity.
Yes, this is all true. And doesn't refute eternal security a whit.

Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: “The Lord knows those who are His,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity.”
2 Timothy 2:19JLB
And that is exactly what I've ALWAYS posted.
 
1. They HAVE eternal life. Present tense noted.
2. They DO NOT come into judgment. Future promise.
3. They HAVE PASSED from spiritual death to eternal life.

This is one of the strongest statements FOR eternal security in Scripture.
No. It's not.
(1) John 3:16 says that those who believe have eternal life.
The word "eternal" is an adjective that describes the kind of life they have.
It is NOT an adverb describing "have."
The verse does not say, "...eternally has eternal life."
(2) They DO NOT come into judgment IF they remain in Christ (John 15:6) and IF they remain in His kindness (Ro 11:22) and IF they continue in the faith (Col 1:23) and IF they hold firmly until the end the confidence they had at first (Heb 3:14) and IF they make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love ... For IF they do those things they will never fall ( 2PE 1:5-7; 10).
(3) They HAVE PASSED from spiritual death to eternal life IF they comply with the "ifs" listed above..

They are only the "strongest statements FOR eternal security in Scripture" if you ignore a whole lot of scripture and only believe the parts you like.

iakov the fool
 
How come no one has quoted ANY verses that teach such a thing?? Where are they? Why should anyone believe such a thing when there are NO verses that teach such a thing?
How about the following passages which I have posted about 10 times but either no one reads them or they don't believe them. :shrug

(1) JN 15:1 "I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, .....
15:5 "I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 IF ANYONE DOES NOT REMAIN IN ME, HE IS LIKE A BRANCH THAT IS THROWN AWAY AND WITHERS; SUCH BRANCHES ARE PICKED UP, THROWN INTO THE FIRE AND BURNED.

(2) RO 11:17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21 For IF GOD DID NOT SPARE THE NATURAL BRANCHES, HE WILL NOT SPARE YOU EITHER. 22 CONSIDER THEREFORE THE KINDNESS AND STERNNESS OF GOD: STERNNESS TO THOSE WHO FELL, BUT KINDNESS TO YOU, PROVIDED THAT YOU CONTINUE IN HIS KINDNESS. OTHERWISE, YOU ALSO WILL BE CUT OFF.

(3)1CO 9:27 No, I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.

(4) 1CO 10:12 So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don't fall!

(5) COL 1:21 Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior. 22 But now HE HAS RECONCILED YOU BY CHRIST'S PHYSICAL BODY THROUGH DEATH TO PRESENT YOU HOLY IN HIS SIGHT, WITHOUT BLEMISH AND FREE FROM ACCUSATION-- 23 IF YOU CONTINUE IN YOUR FAITH, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel.

(6) HEB 3:12 See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13 But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin's deceitfulness. 14 WE HAVE COME TO SHARE IN CHRIST IF WE HOLD FIRMLY TILL THE END THE CONFIDENCE WE HAD AT FIRST.

(7) HEB 6:4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6 IF THEY FALL AWAY, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting himto public disgrace.

(8) PHP 3:7 But whatever was to my profit I now consider loss for the sake of Christ. 8 What is more, I consider everything a loss compared to the surpassing greatness of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them rubbish, that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ--the righteousness that comes from God and is by faith. 10 I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11 and so, somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead.

PHP 3:12 Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. 13 Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.

(9)2PE 1:5 For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6 and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7 and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. 8 For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins.10 Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For IF YOU DO THESE THINGS, YOU WILL NEVER FALL,

(10) 2PE 2: 20 IF THEY HAVE ESCAPED THE CORRUPTION OF THE WORLD BY KNOWING OUR LORD AND SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST AND ARE AGAIN ENTANGLED IN IT AND OVERCOME, THEY ARE WORSE OFF AT THE END THAN THEY WERE AT THE BEGINNING. 21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them.

(11) EZE 18:24 "But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die.”
 
Biblical grace teaches that BECAUSE we are eternally saved, we should ACT like it. Out of gratitude and love.
Here is where I see a problem. When I hear OSAS doctrine I hear doctrine that seems to teach discarding the law out of the fear of legalism. And yet, there are oodles of Scripture all over the entire width and breath of the Bible teaching and warning about neglecting the law.

Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. John 8:42 NKJV
He didn't say if God were their Father they might love Him. He said they would.

"A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another." John 13:34 NKJV
He didn't say it was a new recommendation or that we should love one another. He issued a commandment.

Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.” Matthew 22:37-40 also found recorded in the gospels of Mark and Luke as well as Joshua and twice in Deuteronomy.
He said "shall" not should, not may, not might, but shall.
 
Biblical grace teaches that BECAUSE we are eternally saved, we should ACT like it. Out of gratitude and love.

Please post the scripture that says because we are eternally saved we should act like?
 
How about the following passages which I have posted about 10 times but either no one reads them or they don't believe them. :shrug

(1) JN 15:1 "I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, .....
15:5 "I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 IF ANYONE DOES NOT REMAIN IN ME, HE IS LIKE A BRANCH THAT IS THROWN AWAY AND WITHERS; SUCH BRANCHES ARE PICKED UP, THROWN INTO THE FIRE AND BURNED.

(2) RO 11:17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21 For IF GOD DID NOT SPARE THE NATURAL BRANCHES, HE WILL NOT SPARE YOU EITHER. 22 CONSIDER THEREFORE THE KINDNESS AND STERNNESS OF GOD: STERNNESS TO THOSE WHO FELL, BUT KINDNESS TO YOU, PROVIDED THAT YOU CONTINUE IN HIS KINDNESS. OTHERWISE, YOU ALSO WILL BE CUT OFF.

(3)1CO 9:27 No, I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.

(4) 1CO 10:12 So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don't fall!

(5) COL 1:21 Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior. 22 But now HE HAS RECONCILED YOU BY CHRIST'S PHYSICAL BODY THROUGH DEATH TO PRESENT YOU HOLY IN HIS SIGHT, WITHOUT BLEMISH AND FREE FROM ACCUSATION-- 23 IF YOU CONTINUE IN YOUR FAITH, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel.

(6) HEB 3:12 See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13 But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin's deceitfulness. 14 WE HAVE COME TO SHARE IN CHRIST IF WE HOLD FIRMLY TILL THE END THE CONFIDENCE WE HAD AT FIRST.

(7) HEB 6:4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6 IF THEY FALL AWAY, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting himto public disgrace.

(8) PHP 3:7 But whatever was to my profit I now consider loss for the sake of Christ. 8 What is more, I consider everything a loss compared to the surpassing greatness of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them rubbish, that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ--the righteousness that comes from God and is by faith. 10 I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11 and so, somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead.

PHP 3:12 Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. 13 Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.

(9)2PE 1:5 For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6 and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7 and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. 8 For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins.10 Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For IF YOU DO THESE THINGS, YOU WILL NEVER FALL,

(10) 2PE 2: 20 IF THEY HAVE ESCAPED THE CORRUPTION OF THE WORLD BY KNOWING OUR LORD AND SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST AND ARE AGAIN ENTANGLED IN IT AND OVERCOME, THEY ARE WORSE OFF AT THE END THAN THEY WERE AT THE BEGINNING. 21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them.

(11) EZE 18:24 "But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die.”

They don't believe them.
That's why it's called unbelief.

They simply have shut their ears to the truth.


JLB
 
Cygnus, I don't think anyone is trying to steal the thread or change the topic. The relation to being able to lose our salvation is the premiss behind the question how many times can we lose our salvation and regain it. When it seems JLB gave an answer relating the lesson to forgive in Mathew 18:21-22, in reference to also our salvation, the response you made in post 12 stepped away from the question to the premiss behind the question. It is the same response in both posts 7 and 14 that you directed to Reba. Talking about how we would lose salvation as a way to dismiss the answer. It can only be assumed that from that point on in the conversation tree, in order to go back to the original question, the issue of loosing salvation, how we lose it, if we can lose it and why we lose it would have to be discussed before returning to the answers already given.

To be fair and honest in your approach and in this discussion you must allow this, expecially if when someone gives their answer you question the premiss behind it. But make note, there is reason to worry if our salvation is as strong as we hope it is. In Mathew 24 Jesus describes the prophetic signs for the end times, and in that context, Mathew 24:24, Jesus says that even the elect might be deceived by false prophets and masaiahs, if it's possible.

24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

In Mathew 18:15-20 Jesus talks about what to do if a brother or sister in faith sins against you. In verse 15 I've read translations where it says "if they listen to you, you've gained them back," "if they listen to you, you've won them over," and though I'm having difficulty finding it I think I've read a translation that terms it that you've saved them. In essence if you show them their error and they repent their won back away from whatever sin was the issue.

Both of these verses give a worry about if salvation can be lost. And since it is the premis of the question "how many times can it be lost," I'd really expect a better approach to take the explainations given seriously, or even invite them to explain what they mean instead of baiting the conversation with a question, looking at the premiss, and then jumping back to "let's get back on topic," as if no answers were given. It is a very dishonest approach.

Thanks for the response.
Keep in mind I don't believe one can lose their salvation...BUT...there are several here who do.
It is to them I ask....according to their "theology" how many times can one lose then regain their salvation.
 
I personally think it varies depending on the person how long God leaves the door open to come back to him after rejecting the salvation you had in him.

Which only makes sense based upon principles such as...

To whom much is given, much is expected.

And

Age of accountability.
(Spiritual or Natural)

A baby Christian is far likely to receive more time and grace and understanding that someone older in the Lord, and has been warned over and over.

Just my two cents.


JLB
 
Only once.
The real question is what space of time will God allow the Christ rejector to repent and come come back to the "the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified" (Hebrews 10:29 NASB).

Once God closes the door of opportunity to repent of unbelief it is impossible for it to be opened again:

"it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. 7For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; 8but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned." (Hebrews 6:6-8 NASB)

In the passage above we see the implication that God is patient and waits for the ground that receives the blessing of God to produce it's fruit before he turns it over to be burned if it doesn't, it's unfruitfulness being the evidence of the person's rejection and unbelief in Christ. I personally think it varies depending on the person how long God leaves the door open to come back to him after rejecting the salvation you had in him.

I've studies the Hebrew Verse....many non-OSAS people use it to show if you lost your salvation..that's it. You can't regain it. As it says..."it is impossible to renew them again to repentance"
 
How come no one has quoted ANY verses that teach such a thing?? Where are they? Why should anyone believe such a thing when there are NO verses that teach such a thing?

8 But the cowardly, unbelieving,abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
Revelation 21:8
 
No. It's not.
(1) John 3:16 says that those who believe have eternal life.
The word "eternal" is an adjective that describes the kind of life they have.
It is NOT an adverb describing "have."
The verse does not say, "...eternally has eternal life."
(2) They DO NOT come into judgment IF they remain in Christ (John 15:6) and IF they remain in His kindness (Ro 11:22) and IF they continue in the faith (Col 1:23) and IF they hold firmly until the end the confidence they had at first (Heb 3:14) and IF they make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love ... For IF they do those things they will never fall ( 2PE 1:5-7; 10).
(3) They HAVE PASSED from spiritual death to eternal life IF they comply with the "ifs" listed above..

They are only the "strongest statements FOR eternal security in Scripture" if you ignore a whole lot of scripture and only believe the parts you like.

iakov the fool

How much of the IF must one do? 100%? 75%? .....2%?

I ask because no one can do 100%
 
Here is where I see a problem. When I hear OSAS doctrine I hear doctrine that seems to teach discarding the law out of the fear of legalism. And yet, there are oodles of Scripture all over the entire width and breath of the Bible teaching and warning about neglecting the law.

Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. John 8:42 NKJV
He didn't say if God were their Father they might love Him. He said they would.

"A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another." John 13:34 NKJV
He didn't say it was a new recommendation or that we should love one another. He issued a commandment.

Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.” Matthew 22:37-40 also found recorded in the gospels of Mark and Luke as well as Joshua and twice in Deuteronomy.
He said "shall" not should, not may, not might, but shall.
WIP, that all sounds nice...BUT...I've never met a believer who can do what Jesus commands. What I do see is a lot of believers throwing it out there as something that MUST be accomplished to gain salvation. YET, those believer don't heed the warning the present.
 
So, concerning regaining salvation....what's the answer? 1? or more than one?
 
So, concerning regaining salvation....what's the answer? 1? or more than one?

Salvation is received when Jesus returns.

Until then you have faith, which means you don't have the thing you are hoping for yet.

You have the hope of salvation...
If you are not moved away from the hope of the gospel.

Faith is the substance of the thing you are hoping for.

The evidence of things not seen.

You can't lose what you do not yet have.

You can however lose the faith that is the substance of your hope.


JLB
 
Biblical grace teaches that BECAUSE we are eternally saved, we should ACT like it. Out of gratitude and love.
The Bible doesn't teach that we are "eternally saved" meaning that we cannot loose or discard our salvation.
 
How much of the IF must one do? 100%? 75%? .....2%?
I ask because no one can do 100%
Really? You don't think you can give a 100% effort to make your calling and election sure?
Then you do all that you can do and don't even think about making excuses about why you can't because somewhere it says that you absolutely CAN DO all things through Christ who strengthens you.
 
Salvation is received when Jesus returns.
Where's your scriptural support?

2nd Cor 6:1 As God’s fellow workers, we urge you not to receive God’s grace in vain. 2 For He says: “In the time of favor I heard you, and in the day of salvation I helped you.” Behold, now is the time of favor; now is the day of salvation!
 
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