J
jocor
Guest
Yeshua passed it and set the example for us.
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Bible Study Remember The Sabbath
- Thread starter JohnDB
- Start date
This is probably one of the most far fetched statements I have yet to see come out of the Messianic Community.
A simple review is all that is needed to refute such a claim.
14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation,
15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace.
He Himself abolished in His flesh the law of commandments contained in ordinances...
There are no made made laws of commandments that He is involved in , contained in His Covenant.
Why would the Lord Jesus need to abolish man made ordinances that were never in His Covenant to begin with.
You might as well say He died on the cross to abolish Hinduism.
The law of Moses forbade the children of Israel to intermingle with the Gentiles, but rather, they were to be separate from them.
as it is written -
And you shall be holy to Me, for I the Lord am holy, and have separated you from the peoples, that you should be Mine.
Leviticus 20:26
and again the Psalmist says -
Because they rebelled against His Spirit, So that he spoke rashly with his lips.
34 They did not destroy the peoples, Concerning whom the Lord had commanded them,
35 But they mingled with the Gentiles And learned their works;
36 They served their idols, Which became a snare to them.
37 They even sacrificed their sons And their daughters to demons,
38 And shed innocent blood, The blood of their sons and daughters, Whom they sacrificed to the idols of Canaan; And the land was polluted with blood. Psalm 106:33-38
JLB
J
jocor
Guest
If Yeshua broke the Sabbath, then he sinned. Since he was sinless he could not have broken the Sabbath. He broke the distorted Jewish interpretation of the Sabbath. They thought it was not lawful to heal on that day, but Yeshua taught that it was (Mt 12:10-12).
J
jocor
Guest
So, what you are trying to teach is that this passage is referring to Yahweh's commandments? That means Yeshua abolished the commands against idolatry, adultery, stealing, murder, etc??? "Ordinances" (Greek - "dogma") refers to man-made laws, not Yahweh's ordinances which are called "dikaioma" as in Luke 1:6 and Hebrews 9:1. Yeshua abolished all man-made laws that cause believers to transgress Yahweh's laws such as the man-made command to kill any Gentile that passes over the wall that men commanded to be built separating the court of the Jews from the court of the Gentiles.
Yahweh allowed Gentiles proselytes to join Israel and become part of the nation as long as they obeyed Torah. This verse does not mean they were to kill Gentiles or have a total physical separation from them.
They were not to mingle with them in such a way that they would learn their works and do them, but they could mingle with them and have them learn Yahweh's ways and do them.
I'm teaching what was added to the Abrahamic Covenant was ordinances, such as stoning to death a person who picked up sticks on the Sabbath.... Work shall be done for six days, but the seventh is the Sabbath of rest, holy to the Lord. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. Exodus 31:15
As you can plainly see, Jesus nor the Apostles taught any such commandment to put to death a person for picking up sticks to kindle a fire on the Sabbath.
Feast days, clothing laws, food laws, ceremonial washing's... were all ordinances that were not required in the Abrahamic Covenant.
Abraham obeyed God's laws and commandments 430 years before the law was added, without the fanfare of the ordinances required by the law of Moses.
because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws. Genesis 26:5
The law of Moses was added, until the Seed should come.
19 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; Galatians 3:19
The law of Moses was temporary.
JLB
Because they rebelled against His Spirit, So that he spoke rashly with his lips.
34 They did not destroy the peoples, Concerning whom the Lord had commanded them,
35 But they mingled with the Gentiles And learned their works;
36 They served their idols, Which became a snare to them.
37 They even sacrificed their sons And their daughters to demons,
38 And shed innocent blood, The blood of their sons and daughters, Whom they sacrificed to the idols of Canaan; And the land was polluted with blood. Psalm 106:33-38
They did not destroy the peoples, Concerning whom the Lord had commanded them...
JLB
count to 10 guys
1, 2, 3, 5, 6.. oh wait.
Let me start over.
1, 2, 3, 45678910.
Hey I got it.
I believe a sound discussion can be held here without debate or rancor entering into the conversation.
Great topic, JohnDB
Closing a thread is a simple click.. lets be on our best behavior admin
14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, 15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, 16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity.
Ephesians 2:14-16
... having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances,
This statement from Paul builds upon and ties together his teaching from Galatians.
What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. Galatians 3:19
The law of Moses was added, until the Seed should come... and abolish in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances.
It was the Lord Himself, the Covenant Maker, and Law Giver, who became flesh, and abolished in His flesh the law that was added.
as He said plainly to those Jews who believed... Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.”Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?”Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.” John 8:56-58
Concerning man-made laws, this command was sufficient;
You shall not add to the word which I command you, nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you. Deuteronomy 4:2
Jesus said -
He answered and said to them, “Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition? Matthew 15:3
The law of commandments contained in ordinances is a reference to the law that was added, [Moses law] until the Seed should come, and abolish them at the cross.
In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Hebrews 8:13
JLB
Ephesians 2:14-16
... having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances,
This statement from Paul builds upon and ties together his teaching from Galatians.
What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. Galatians 3:19
The law of Moses was added, until the Seed should come... and abolish in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances.
It was the Lord Himself, the Covenant Maker, and Law Giver, who became flesh, and abolished in His flesh the law that was added.
as He said plainly to those Jews who believed... Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.”Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?”Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.” John 8:56-58
Concerning man-made laws, this command was sufficient;
You shall not add to the word which I command you, nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you. Deuteronomy 4:2
Jesus said -
He answered and said to them, “Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition? Matthew 15:3
The law of commandments contained in ordinances is a reference to the law that was added, [Moses law] until the Seed should come, and abolish them at the cross.
In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Hebrews 8:13
JLB
Edward
2024 Supporter
Oh sorry, that's not no it was posed to be new spelled slang.
Jim Parker
Member
Your understanding of "convocation" is correct.
Your understanding of every Sabbath as a day of "holy convocation" is incorrect because you have taken the verse out of its context.
Here is the context:
Lev 23:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, Concerning the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are my feasts.
Lev 23:3 Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the Sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the Sabbath of the LORD in all your dwellings.
Lev 23:4 These are the feasts of the LORD, even holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their seasons.
There follows the list of feasts which are "holy convocations."
The FEASTS are the "holy convocations."
The weekly Sabbath is NOT a "holy convocation;" it is a day of rest.
iakov the fool
J
jocor
Guest
I know you meant "new". I meant that you weren't learning something noo/new, but something false (6:00PM start for Sabbath).
J
jocor
Guest
Sorry, but you are taking it out of context. In fact, you are taking it out of the verse itself. "Holy convocation" is used in verse 3 to specifically refer to the Sabbath. The purpose of the "rest" from work is not only to rest physically from our labors, but to allow time to meet with Yahweh, pray, worship, study His Word, fellowship with brethren of like faith, etc. The Feasts are also holy convocation because we are to gather together and meet with Yahweh on those days as well.
In case you did not know, the word "feast" is the Hebrew "moedi" meaning "appointments". All holy days, whether weekly Sabbaths or annual sabbaths (feasts) are sacred appointments in which we are to meet with our Creator. He appointed those times throughout the year so that we would not neglect fellowship with Him and other brethren.
J
jocor
Guest
That man was not put to death for merely picking up sticks, but for doing it "with a high hand" (willfully despising Yahweh's word). Here is how the Treasury of Scriptural Knowledge comments on it:
Numbers 15:32
they found a man: This example seems to have been evidently introduced to illustrate the foregoing law. The man despised the word of the Lord, presumptuously broke his commandment, and on this ground was punished with death.
The "foregoing law" refers to Numbers 15:30-31:they found a man: This example seems to have been evidently introduced to illustrate the foregoing law. The man despised the word of the Lord, presumptuously broke his commandment, and on this ground was punished with death.
Num 15:30 But the soul that doeth ought presumptuously, whether he be born in the land, or a stranger, the same reproacheth YHWH; and that soul shall be cut off from among his people.
Num 15:31 Because he hath despised the word of YHWH, and hath broken His commandment, that soul shall utterly be cut off; his iniquity shall be upon him.
It was not a sin of ignorance spoken of in Num 15:29, but an "in your face" kind of sin.Num 15:31 Because he hath despised the word of YHWH, and hath broken His commandment, that soul shall utterly be cut off; his iniquity shall be upon him.
.
Whenever the KJV uses "ordinance" in reference to a feast as in Ex 12:14,17, the Hebrew is "chuqqah", but the Greek is "nomimon", NOT "dogma". Why? Because "dogma" does NOT refer to Yahweh's feasts or ordinances, but to man's ordinances. Prove to us that laws given through Moses were called "dogma" in the OT.
Among the laws that he obeyed were laws against murder, adultery, idolatry, and stealing. All Ten Words given at Sinai were once oral commandments passed down since Adam's day. Even laws concerning clean and unclean animals existed orally.
You are adding "of Moses" into the text which then makes it seem as though it is referring to the entire law. I believe it is referring to a part of the law.
The law was "added because of transgressions." We can understand that better when considering another statement by Paul.
Rom 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
The very fact that transgressions existed which necessitated adding a law shows that the law already existed. Abraham kept the law that already existed. What then was added? The sacrificial system which was how the law dealt with sin. It was that aspect of the law that was "until the Seed should come." The "Seed" was Yeshua who provided a more excellent way of dealing with sin. His one time sacrifice fulfilled the entire sacrificial system. It was the sacrificial system that was temporary.
It is a fact that New Covenant believers still sin. Sin is the transgression of the law (1 John 3:4). It is the law that continues to show us our sins so that we can go to Yeshua in confession to receive forgiveness and cleansing. If we abolish the law, we abolish the very thing that tells us we are sinning (Rom 3:20).
Then they would be referred to as proselytes.
The Lord abolished in His flesh the law... Not man's law, but the law of commandments contained in ordinances... Not man's ordinances but the ordinances that were added to the Covenant of Abraham until the Seed should come.
For what would God have to do with removing some laws He never added.
What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made... Galatians 3:19
JLB
J
jocor
Guest
Explain to me how Yahweh's holy, just and good commandments caused a hatred (enmity) between Jew and Gentile. You included the Feasts among those "ordinances" that were abolished. How did they cause a hatred if they have absolutely no affect on Gentiles unless they were proselytes? Do you include the Ten Words in those ordinances?