Resurrection did not happen, say quarter of UK Christians

[Free]

why even acknowledge there garbage

We need to acknowledge it and challenge it head-on because if we don't, more and more people will believe such things to be true. If we say nothing, people will think Christianity has nothing to say back, which makes it appear as though it is true. Not to mention that if a lie is repeated enough, people begin to think it is true.

Christians need to be able to address these issues clearly and coherently; it's becoming more and more important every day.

 

[Free]

Free,

I agree with all of this, but we need to emphasise that this was a bodily resurrection and not that of, say, J D Crossan and his support for the resurrection as apparition.

The abstract of my PhD dissertation on Crossan and the resurrection is at: http://repository.up.ac.za/handle/2263/50510?show=full
http://repository.up.ac.za/handle/2263/50510?show=full
Excellent analysis you gave.

Oz

Absolutely agree. That scholars agree that the tomb was empty strongly implies a physical resurrection, but when discussing 1 Cor. 15 we certainly need to make sure to emphasize that the only resurrection in the minds of Jews and the early church was a literal, physical resurrection.

 

[ezra]

Ezra,

Do you mean 'their garbage'?

I raised this issue because we need to know the strategy of the enemy. Imagine going into battle as a complete novice with no understanding of how the enemy operates.

Oz

their there yes their garbage it is good to have a idea what is out there . but it is even better to know the truth over the fake. they say the way government law officers learn how to spot counterfeit money is they study the real thing . my point is what do we even acknowledge them. much like with n Korea. the u.s has been spatting with them. keep a heavy battle group close at hand. let them fire there missiles . first time they fire one toward a country unleash fire power destroy any thing that is near . paul wrote be sober (not under the influence ) be vigilant alert all this is just my opinion

 

[ezra]

We need to acknowledge it and challenge it head-on because if we don't, more and more people will believe such things to be true. If we say nothing, people will think Christianity has nothing to say back, which makes it appear as though it is true. Not to mention that if a lie is repeated enough, people begin to think it is true.

Christians need to be able to address these issues clearly and coherently; it's becoming more and more important every day.

very well address and help publicize it so everyone else can read it. i threw away the j.w pamphlet that was gave to me Saturday

 

[Christ_empowered]

Its secularization, at its finest. I think it was Max Weber who wrote about the 'disenchantment of the world,' as science began overtaking old ways of looking at things. The church affects the culture, and increasingly, the culture affects the church. Why people who don't even hold to the basics of Christianity would bother to claim Christ is beyond me, but I suppose in societies that were once mostly Christian and still have some lingering Judeo-Christian concepts in the mainstream, that sort of thing happens...

 

[ezra]

Its secularization, at its finest. I think it was Max Weber who wrote about the 'disenchantment of the world,' as science began overtaking old ways of looking at things. The church affects the culture, and increasingly, the culture affects the church. Why people who don't even hold to the basics of Christianity would bother to claim Christ is beyond me, but I suppose in societies that were once mostly Christian and still have some lingering Judeo-Christian concepts in the mainstream, that sort of thing happens...

we as Christians are salt and light salt adds flavor and can be used to prevent bacteria in some cases in meat . the LIGHT keeps the dark out

 

[Politico]

Politico,

Yours is a good thought for another thread. I encourage you to start that thread.

The OP here is discussing those 'Christians' who do not believe in Jesus' resurrection.

Oz

I disagree. Actually your comment demonstrates the necessity of my post you have referenced.

The OP asks this question:

"This is the headline in a BBC News story (9 April 2017) about Christian belief in the UK. The story states that

A quarter of people who describe themselves as Christians in Great Britain do not believe in the resurrection of Jesus, a survey commissioned by the BBC suggests.
However, almost one in 10 people of no religion say they do believe the Easter story, but it has "some content that should not be taken literally".
Why do you think this is happening?"

My post you referenced was attempting to answer, through suggestion, that question. The primary reasons as to why it is happening is as follows:
1) The fallen nature of man
2) Demonic influence
3) Erroneous eschatology that claims a spiritual/moral decline must occur in the Church prior to the 1 Thessalonians 4:17 event. How can we truly believe/pray for widespread revival in the Chruch and the regression of heretical beliefs if we also believe in a widespread decline in the Church as well as in society? How can we believe/pray for these liberal, professing Christians to be genuinely saved if we are teaching an eschatology that demands for worldwide moral spiritual decline in Churches and the nations? Inevitable decline theology only fosters such heresies. Eschatology is entirely relevant to the question asked in the OP.

The Church is not only the light of the world, we are also the salt of the earth, and salt effects the entirety of that to which it is applied. Such heresies will not end outside of the real church's influence; primarily through the ministry of prayer.

Yes that's right; genuine Christians have been a major contributing factor related to increasing heresies in Western countries (and others) due to our massive failure in intercessory prayer for the Church and the nations over the intervening decades; and that becasue of primarily a massive failure in our beliefs in regards to eschatology. Where the spiritual Salt and Light is diminished in society, so to will heresies and moral decline increase. The one accompanies the other. The opposite is also true.

Fortunately, over the past two years the Church has started to wake up to this as more Christians start to change their eschatology and become more active in their duty in regards to prayer for the Church and the nations.

Examine closely the eschatology/doctrine of prayer in the early American Church (up to the late 19th/early 20th century) and compare it to our own popular eschatology/doctrine of prayer. Then examine the corresponding results of both on society. Therein lies the answer to your question.

The ministry of Payer is foundational to and precedes all other effective Christian ministry!

 

[Jim Parker]

Why do you think this is happening?

It is happening because of a lack of good Bible preaching in the midst of a society which is more and more dedicated to the attaining of a socialist, secular utopia imposed by the government than to God.
Essentially, they don't know God; they don't really believe in God; and they hope that politicians will take care of them.

They foolishly put their trust in men and pretend that there is no God who will judge mankind.

Psa 146:3
Do not put your trust in princes,
Nor in a son of man, in whom there is no help.


iakov the fool

 

[OzSpen]

Absolutely agree. That scholars agree that the tomb was empty strongly implies a physical resurrection, but when discussing 1 Cor. 15 we certainly need to make sure to emphasize that the only resurrection in the minds of Jews and the early church was a literal, physical resurrection.

Free,

The evidence from the NT is unequivocal that Jesus’ rose from the grave bodily. Any other interpretation flies in the face of the following evidence:

What does the Bible say about Jesus’ bodily resurrection?

It is very easy to show from the Scriptures that Christ rose from the dead in a physical body. Let’s look at the evidence (based on Geisler 1999, pp. 667-668):

1. People touched him with their hands (Matt 28:9; Lk 24:39; John 20:27-28;

2. Jesus’ resurrection body had real flesh and bones (Luke 24:39-42);

3. Jesus ate real tucker (Aussie for “food”). See Luke 24:30, 41-43; John 21:12-13; Acts 10:41);

4. Take a look at the wounds in his body (John 20:27; Acts 1:11)

5. Jesus could be seen and heard (Matt 28:17; Lk 24:31);

6. The Greek word, soma, always means physical body (1 Cor 15:42-44);

7. Jesus’ body came out from among the dead.

There’s a prepositional phrase that is used in the NT to describe resurrection “from (ek) the dead” (cf. Mark 9:9; Luke 24:46; John 2:22; Acts 3:15; Rom. 4:24; I Cor. 15:12). That sounds like a ho-hum kind of phrase in English, “from the dead.” Not so in the Greek.

This Greek preposition, ek, means Jesus was resurrected ‘out from among’ the dead bodies, that is, from the grave where corpses are buried (Acts 13:29-30). These same words are used to describe Lazarus’s being raised ‘from the dead’ (John 12:1). In this case there is no doubt that he came out of the grave in the same body in which he was buried. Thus, resurrection was of a physical corpse out of a tomb or graveyard (Geisler 1999:668).

This confirms the physical nature of the resurrection body.

8. He appeared to over 500 people at the one time (Acts 1:3; 1 Cor 15:5-8).

How is it possible to conclude from this evidence that Jesus was not raised bodily from the grave?

The above is summarised from my article, ‘Was Jesus’ resurrection a bodily resurrection?’

Oz

Works consulted
Geisler, N. L. 1999, ‘Resurrection, Evidence for’, in N. L. Geisler, Baker Encyclopedia of Christian Apologetics, 651-656. Grand Rapid, Michigan: Baker Books.

 

[OzSpen]

their there yes their garbage it is good to have a idea what is out there . but it is even better to know the truth over the fake. they say the way government law officers learn how to spot counterfeit money is they study the real thing . my point is what do we even acknowledge them. much like with n Korea. the u.s has been spatting with them. keep a heavy battle group close at hand. let them fire there missiles . first time they fire one toward a country unleash fire power destroy any thing that is near . paul wrote be sober (not under the influence ) be vigilant alert all this is just my opinion

Ezra,

Leading evangelical Anglican Bishop of Liverpool, J C Ryle, wrote in the 18th century, 'The saddest symptom about many so-called Christians is the utter absence of anything like conflict and fight in their Christianity' (Home Truths. Triangle Press, 1:90).

John chose to identify some of the false teaching of his day:

Dear friends, do not believe everyone who claims to speak by the Spirit. You must test them to see if the spirit they have comes from God. For there are many false prophets in the world. 2 This is how we know if they have the Spirit of God: If a person claiming to be a prophet acknowledges that Jesus Christ came in a real body, that person has the Spirit of God. 3 But if someone claims to be a prophet and does not acknowledge the truth about Jesus, that person is not from God. Such a person has the spirit of the Antichrist, which you heard is coming into the world and indeed is already here (1 John 4:1-3 NLT).​

That is what I chose to do in starting this thread. John faced Gnosticism in his day. One of the false teachings of today deals with non-biblical views of the resurrection of Jesus. They need to be exposed and responded to, with biblical insight and challenge.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

It is happening because of a lack of good Bible preaching in the midst of a society which is more and more dedicated to the attaining of a socialist, secular utopia imposed by the government than to God.
Essentially, they don't know God; they don't really believe in God; and they hope that politicians will take care of them.

They foolishly put their trust in men and pretend that there is no God who will judge mankind.

Psa 146:3
Do not put your trust in princes,
Nor in a son of man, in whom there is no help.

iakov the fool

Thanks Jim for your observations of what could be the causes for this decline in belief in the resurrection.

Could it also relate to Christians who have a lame presence in the public square? They are not ready to debate and defend the bodily resurrection of Christ.

Then one has to deal with the heresies promoted by the liberal church through people like John Dominic Crossan, John Shelby Spong, Bart Ehrman, etc.

Oz

 

[Christ_empowered]

I think its a social issue. Some in the church--individuals, groups, now even entire denominations--are much more accomodating to the whims of the surrounding culture than some others. This why Barna research in the US shows that even a lot of self-professed Christians who attend church don't adhere to Christian beliefs 101, such as the exclusivity of Christ.

I don't doubt that we need churches that do a better job of developing Christian morality and character. I also think its important to realize that the culture as a whole is now ((in most 21st century, developed, affluent nations...) decidedly "post-Christian." It seems to me that secularization has progressed in some areas to the point that basic, fundamental Christian beliefs are ridiculed, mocked, and labeled (intolerant, bigoted, homophobic, etc.). Some people, for whatever reason, want to keep the label "Christian" and then recreate Christianity (and Christ, too) into something more "modern," more palatable.

I will say that it seems that the RCC has been doing a better job of things in the face of secularization than much of the Protestant side of Christendom. In the US, mainline Protestantism is on life support, especially the Episcopalians and Presbyterians (PCUSA). Mega-churches are offering what seems a distinctly American version of Jesus. More traditional denominations, such as the Pentecostal groups, do seem ((to me...)) to be doing a better job than many at holding on to core beliefs and helping believers mature in Christ.

My best guess is that as secularization continues, as more mega-churches and whole denominations lose sight of Christ, believers will have to focus more and more on Christ and finding ways to live out an authentic faith in places where their/our beliefs are viewed with ever increasing suspicion and at times outright hostility.

 

[Pegasus]

What an appropriate time for BBC News to debunk Jesus’ resurrection!

This is the headline in a BBC News story (9 April 2017) about Christian belief in the UK. The story states that

A quarter of people who describe themselves as Christians in Great Britain do not believe in the resurrection of Jesus, a survey commissioned by the BBC suggests.

However, almost one in 10 people of no religion say they do believe the Easter story, but it has "some content that should not be taken literally".​

Why do you think this is happening?

A spokesperson for liberal Christianity put it this way, in the article:

Reverend Dr Lorraine Cavanagh is the acting general secretary for Modern Church, which promotes liberal Christian theology.

She said: "I think [people answering the survey] are being asked to believe in the way they might have been asked to believe when they were at Sunday school.

"You're talking about adults here. And an adult faith requires that it be constantly questioned, constantly re-interpreted, which incidentally is very much what Modern Church is actually about.

"Science, but also intellectual and philosophical thought has progressed. It has a trickle-down effect on just about everybody's lives.

"So to ask an adult to believe in the resurrection the way they did when they were at Sunday school simply won't do and that's true of much of the key elements of the Christian faith."​

In other words, belief in the resurrection of Jesus is for infant understanding and not for adults. Now that we are grown up, we can question and not come to an infantile conclusion.

How would you respond to such a view?

Oz

One really is not a Christian if they do not believe in the Bodily Resurrection of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

I would respond to those who doubt to read 1 Corinthians 15 on the beliefs of the very first Christians.

However, since the infamous "Jesus Seminar" these yearly articles and debates are to be expected. One of the best works addressing the heretical views of the Jesus Seminar has to be Strobel's "The Case for Christ."

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

Reverend Dr Lorraine Cavanagh is the acting general secretary for Modern Church, which promotes liberal Christian theology.

She said: "I think [people answering the survey] are being asked to believe in the way they might have been asked to believe when they were at Sunday school.

"You're talking about adults here. And an adult faith requires that it be constantly questioned, constantly re-interpreted, which incidentally is very much what Modern Church is actually about.

"Science, but also intellectual and philosophical thought has progressed. It has a trickle-down effect on just about everybody's lives.

"So to ask an adult to believe in the resurrection the way they did when they were at Sunday school simply won't do and that's true of much of the key elements of the Christian faith."​

In other words, belief in the resurrection of Jesus is for infant understanding and not for adults. Now that we are grown up, we can question and not come to an infantile conclusion.

How would you respond to such a view?

Oz

My response to this to a professing Christian.

Mathew 18:3. And he said: “Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

Mark 13:31 (Jesus speaking)

Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

Although I might not have the benifit of finding the verse that says it like I have the benifit here, essentially this would be the heart of my response. Have the faith of a child and do not turn away from that. And be confidant in the words in the bible. They are spirit filled and will not change.

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

What an appropriate time for BBC News to debunk Jesus’ resurrection!

This is the headline in a BBC News story (9 April 2017) about Christian belief in the UK. The story states that

A quarter of people who describe themselves as Christians in Great Britain do not believe in the resurrection of Jesus, a survey commissioned by the BBC suggests.

However, almost one in 10 people of no religion say they do believe the Easter story, but it has "some content that should not be taken literally".​

Why do you think this is happening?

There is a deceptiveness to knowledge. If it can not be explained it can't be true. Also claimed to the idea "question everything." These things though small in our society's rationelle (compaired to other ideas) are large burdens to both holding anything as true to be a foundation to work on, as well as a burden against faith. Too many questions with no intention of finding answers. If the answers aren't there it must not be true. Why look farther then that? I think ideas like this are in the culture, and not stood up against by Christians. Consequentially they are then adopted by Christians and a burden on their faith.

Essentially without meaning it people have come to think "We're adults now, and need proof to accept something as reasonable." What this also says though without knowing it is "We don't trust God. If it's not explained it must be in error. Even if it's God who says it."

 

[OzSpen]

I think its a social issue. Some in the church--individuals, groups, now even entire denominations--are much more accomodating to the whims of the surrounding culture than some others. This why Barna research in the US shows that even a lot of self-professed Christians who attend church don't adhere to Christian beliefs 101, such as the exclusivity of Christ.

I don't doubt that we need churches that do a better job of developing Christian morality and character. I also think its important to realize that the culture as a whole is now ((in most 21st century, developed, affluent nations...) decidedly "post-Christian." It seems to me that secularization has progressed in some areas to the point that basic, fundamental Christian beliefs are ridiculed, mocked, and labeled (intolerant, bigoted, homophobic, etc.). Some people, for whatever reason, want to keep the label "Christian" and then recreate Christianity (and Christ, too) into something more "modern," more palatable.

I will say that it seems that the RCC has been doing a better job of things in the face of secularization than much of the Protestant side of Christendom. In the US, mainline Protestantism is on life support, especially the Episcopalians and Presbyterians (PCUSA). Mega-churches are offering what seems a distinctly American version of Jesus. More traditional denominations, such as the Pentecostal groups, do seem ((to me...)) to be doing a better job than many at holding on to core beliefs and helping believers mature in Christ.

My best guess is that as secularization continues, as more mega-churches and whole denominations lose sight of Christ, believers will have to focus more and more on Christ and finding ways to live out an authentic faith in places where their/our beliefs are viewed with ever increasing suspicion and at times outright hostility.

CE,

Excellent post with some spot-on observations from my POV. Many of the mainline denominations have so been taken over by modernist and now post-mosternist theology that core Christian beliefs have been denied or explained away.

I'm not so sure that the Pentecostal groups are holding on to beliefs and helping believers to mature. For some of them, they are moving into subjectivism and even mysticism in their expressions of Christianity. How do I know?

I spent 14 years in the Assemblies of God, training in their Bible College, teaching at that same college for 5 years, and pastoring one church. I saw too much uncontrolled tongues' speaking without interpretation in the meetings, chaos in meetings (crawling around on the floor, barking like dogs, 'slain in the Spirit', etc.) that I could not agree with the theology promoted to continue with that denomination.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

One really is not a Christian if they do not believe in the Bodily Resurrection of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

I would respond to those who doubt to read 1 Corinthians 15 on the beliefs of the very first Christians.

However, since the infamous "Jesus Seminar" these yearly articles and debates are to be expected. One of the best works addressing the heretical views of the Jesus Seminar has to be Strobel's "The Case for Christ."

Pegasus,

There are a number of other Scriptures from the Gospels and Acts that demonstrate Jesus' bodily resurrection. See #29 above where I've provided that evidence.

Lee Strobel's, The Case for Christ, is an excellent resource for refuting this liberal anti-resurrection view. N T Wright's, The Resurrection of the Son of God, provides 817pp of brilliant scholarship to support the traditional view of bodily resurrection. Ben Witherington's, The Jesus Quest, addressed similar issues, but at a more popular level than Wright.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

There is a deceptiveness to knowledge. If it can not be explained it can't be true. Also claimed to the idea "question everything." These things though small in our society's rationelle (compaired to other ideas) are large burdens to both holding anything as true to be a foundation to work on, as well as a burden against faith. Too many questions with no intention of finding answers. If the answers aren't there it must not be true. Why look farther then that? I think ideas like this are in the culture, and not stood up against by Christians. Consequentially they are then adopted by Christians and a burden on their faith.

Essentially without meaning it people have come to think "We're adults now, and need proof to accept something as reasonable." What this also says though without knowing it is "We don't trust God. If it's not explained it must be in error. Even if it's God who says it."

NNS,

I'm not sure that this is a biblical view. You don't like the idea of 'question everything'. What do the Scriptures state?

1 Cor 12:10 (NIV) speaks of the 'discernment of spirits or distinguishing between spirits'. It's a gift of the Spirit and every church needs those with this gift.

John MacArthur explained it well:

In its simplest definition, discernment is nothing more than the ability to decide between truth and error, right and wrong. Discernment is the process of making careful distinctions in our thinking about truth. In other words, the ability to think with discernment is synonymous with an ability to think biblically.

First Thessalonians 5:21-22 teaches that it is the responsibility of every Christian to be discerning: "But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good; abstain from every form of evil." The apostle John issues a similar warning when he says, "Do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world" (1 John 4:1). According to the New Testament, discernment is not optional for the believer-it is required (What is biblical discernment and why is it important?)
​

That's the biblical emphasis:

• examine everything carefully;
• hold fast to that which is good;
• abstain from every form of evil;
• Do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God;
• many false prophets have gone out into the world.

1 Thess 5:21 states:

• but test them all; hold on to what is good (NIV);
• but test everything; hold fast what is good (ESV);
• But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good (NASB);
• but test everything; hold fast to what is good (NRSV).

Therefore, I've sought to practise 1 Thess 5:21 in examining your post. I've found some elements that don't stack up. You stated:

• 'There is a deceptiveness to knowledge. If it can not be explained it can't be true'. You have given your own knowledge here and your claim that 'if it can not be explained' is too general in its application. My motor mechanic did not explain the breakdown in my car's carburetor to my satisfaction, but he sure fixed the problem I was having.
• You don't like the idea of 'question everything'. However, that is biblical thinking according to 1 Thess 5:21, 'examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good' (NASB).
• You say, 'We're adults now, and need proof to accept something as reasonable', is a wrong perspective. Not so, according to 1 Thess 5:21, 'Examine everything carefully'.

I'm going to stick with Scripture.

Oz

 

[civilwarbuff]

Essentially without meaning it people have come to think "We're adults now, and need proof to accept something as reasonable." What this also says though without knowing it is "We don't trust God. If it's not explained it must be in error. Even if it's God who says it."

It seems those people need to be 're-educated' as to what faith means..........

 

[ezra]

It seems those people need to be 're-educated' as to what faith means..........

this is what i mean by not giving them the time of day. when something like this comes along it is soon spread like wildfire