Revelations questions

There are some things about the Book of Revelations that have been nagging at me for a while now; and I hope some of my fellow members can help me to figure it out.

Now I know the only Church (or Temple) God has ever built upon this earth is the physical human body. Our bodies are a Temple Unto Our Lord; so I have no concern with the 7 letters to the 7 Churches.

There is Prophecy concerning the end times in other Book's; but only in Revelations does it warn of consequences of "changing" a single word of the Prophecy given? That I cannot understand; unless the whole point was to ensure that some of that Prophecy could never be fulfilled.

I know that God can do anything He pleases; but I also believe God has no interest in "putting on a show" for those who hold doubt in their hearts.

 

[Rodger]

Many do tend to either accept it as "literal," or so obscure that they can make it fit their doctrinal narrative. Just last year, I heard a pastor, (local radio sermon), tell everyone that "Mystery" was the name of a city that one can physically go to... If we knew where it was." He didn't appreciate my critique.

Anyone who rejects and dismisses the symbolic wordings in the Revelation really do not know what they are saying.

I am one who teaches that we use the "Literal-grammatical" method of understanding. That means we should take the words written as they are written in relation to the CONTEXT of the paragraph.

This means that I start out by taking the words in their most normal meaning. If I say My house is red, you will understand what I mean. There would be no question about it. However, if I say Listen to this parable about the Homeowner, or used comparative words like the word like as in like a roaring lion, you would understand that my words might not be meant to be taken literally, but possibly figuratively.

Also, numbers in the Revelation mean what they say. 1000 means 1000. 12 means 12. 144 means 144.

The problem come in when people use the ALLAGORICAL or SYMBOLIC method. That opens the door to "What I think/My Opinion"!

 

[Rodger]

You can join in Rodger. That's why we're here.
I know very little about Revelation and/or the end times.
It just really never interested me too much - maybe to my loss.

I understand that John is speaking of Jesus...it was pretty easy to figure out.
The 7 churches is no big mystery.
Didn't remember about Zecharia, the lamp stands makes sense.
The part about the pastors of the churches doesn't make too much sense...
A star represents one pastor of each of the 7 churches?
OK on the authority....do we know what a star represents?

YES. And I am very blessed that you would ask me. Thank you.

May I say to you, and I do this with much reservation.....I have studied escotology for the last 50 years.

It was what my thesis was all about. I did that because years ago, NO ONE knew anything about the end time. NO ONE spoke on it so it is what i decided I would find out about.

Seven Churches = ALL of the churches. SEVEN is a number in Scripture that means COMPLETNESS.

So when you see Seven Churches, each church mentioned had a specific that was unique to it, however it was also seen in ALL the other churches.

Another key to understanding is to allow the Scriptures to interpret themselves.

Rev. 1:9..........
" The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands are the seven churches."

Stars = Pastors of local churches. Stars give out "light" and light in the Scriptures indicates TRUTH.
It is through the preaching of the Word of God or giving out the LIGHT of the gospel that men are saved from sin.

 

[GodsGrace]

YES. And I am very blessed that you would ask me. Thank you.

May I say to you, and I do this with much reservation.....I have studied escotology for the last 50 years.

It was what my thesis was all about. I did that because years ago, NO ONE knew anything about the end time. NO ONE spoke on it so it is what i decided I would find out about.

Seven Churches = ALL of the churches. SEVEN is a number in Scripture that means COMPLETNESS.

So when you see Seven Churches, each church mentioned had a specific that was unique to it, however it was also seen in ALL the other churches.

Another key to understanding is to allow the Scriptures to interpret themselves.

Rev. 1:9..........
" The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands are the seven churches."

Stars = Pastors of local churches. Stars give out "light" and light in the Scriptures indicates TRUTH.
It is through the preaching of the Word of God or giving out the LIGHT of the gospel that men are saved from sin.

Too late.
Sounds good.
Too late here,,,,tomorrow.

 

[Indentured Servant]

Anyone who rejects and dismisses the symbolic wordings in the Revelation really do not know what they are saying.

I am one who teaches that we use the "Literal-grammatical" method of understanding. That means we should take the words written as they are written in relation to the CONTEXT of the paragraph.

This means that I start out by taking the words in their most normal meaning. If I say My house is red, you will understand what I mean. There would be no question about it. However, if I say Listen to this parable about the Homeowner, or used comparative words like the word like as in like a roaring lion, you would understand that my words might not be meant to be taken literally, but possibly figuratively.

Also, numbers in the Revelation mean what they say. 1000 means 1000. 12 means 12. 144 means 144.

The problem come in when people use the ALLAGORICAL or SYMBOLIC method. That opens the door to "What I think/My Opinion"!

That's a very effective way of preparing someone to understand metaphorical language.
And yes, I agree that the numbers are not symbolic, but are used to lead us to understand other symbolic descriptions.
Case in point: 12,000 from each of twelve tribes = 144,000. This is literal... 12,000 stadia of New Jerusalem, a cube... There are 12 edges on a cube, equalling 144,000 if each are 12,000 in length.
The 144,000 represent both the number of a people AND the total length of the "foundations," (edges of a cube) of New Jerusalem, which is presented as the Bride. New Jerusalem will be centered on Mount Zion, where the 144,000 are revealed as the remnant/inheritance of God.

The Temple is Christ, the 144,000 are the bride...

Food for thought: WE are referred to as THE Temple of God, each a "living stone" built on the cornerstone of that "building." Gentiles are the body of Christ, who is the groom... Israel's remnant, His inheritance, is the bride and are given the land they were promised.

 

[Indentured Servant]

You can join in Rodger. That's why we're here.
I know very little about Revelation and/or the end times.
It just really never interested me too much - maybe to my loss.

I understand that John is speaking of Jesus...it was pretty easy to figure out.
The 7 churches is no big mystery.
Didn't remember about Zecharia, the lamp stands makes sense.
The part about the pastors of the churches doesn't make too much sense...
A star represents one pastor of each of the 7 churches?
OK on the authority....do we know what a star represents?

The lampstands are the manifestations of the Spirit within the people... The stars ARE the Holy Spirit. The letters are to those with one (or more) manifestation... Each letter's commendations and warnings represents the qualities of each of the seven assembling of manifestations in the people.
This is most difficult to understand because of how we've been taught to define "church." The Greek word ekklesia means "Called Out," and is related to the word "invited." It is commonly used as meaning of a "congregating" of people for a purpose. Our modern perspective of the meaning of church forces us to believe it's referring to a location of people gathered... In the language of Revelation, it's about identifying the people grouped by each of the seven manifestations of the Spirit.
In a modern "church," you are likely to have most, if not all of these "assembling of Spirit."
I have personally identified which of these letters are addressed to me... You can only access the meaning for your self by asking the Spirit to reveal your heart in light of these. It is similar as spiritual "gifts." We have to find our place and make corrections on our course, or the "lampstands" (manifestation of Spirit) will be removed.
One of these letters is awesome for those struggling with their faith, as it states a "door will be left open for you."

 

[Rodger]

That's a very effective way of preparing someone to understand metaphorical language.
And yes, I agree that the numbers are not symbolic, but are used to lead us to understand other symbolic descriptions.
Case in point: 12,000 from each of twelve tribes = 144,000. This is literal... 12,000 stadia of New Jerusalem, a cube... There are 12 edges on a cube, equalling 144,000 if each are 12,000 in length.
The 144,000 represent both the number of a people AND the total length of the "foundations," (edges of a cube) of New Jerusalem, which is presented as the Bride. New Jerusalem will be centered on Mount Zion, where the 144,000 are revealed as the remnant/inheritance of God.

The Temple is Christ, the 144,000 are the bride...

Food for thought: WE are referred to as THE Temple of God, each a "living stone" built on the cornerstone of that "building." Gentiles are the body of Christ, who is the groom... Israel's remnant, His inheritance, is the bride and are given the land they were promised.

The 144,000 are NOT the Bride my friend. They are all Male Jews.

Since The 144,000 will be selected after the rapture, it is not possible that they would be the bride of Christ.
In addition to that fact, they are not part of the Church.

2 Cor. 11:2 Paul spoke of espousing (promising) the Church to one husband, to Christ. The Greek word for espousing means he has betrothed us to Jesus. The Church is the intended Bride of Christ.

 

[Rodger]

Too late.
Sounds good.
Too late here,,,,tomorrow.

I am at your service.

 

[Indentured Servant]

The 144,000 are NOT the Bride my friend. They are all Male Jews.

Since The 144,000 will be selected after the rapture, it is not possible that they would be the bride of Christ.
In addition to that fact, they are not part of the Church.

2 Cor. 11:2 Paul spoke of espousing (promising) the Church to one husband, to Christ. The Greek word for espousing means he has betrothed us to Jesus. The Church is the intended Bride of Christ.

You stated: "the 144,000 are not the bride... They are all male."

If being "male" disqualifies them as the bride, does that mean only females can be the bride of Christ? What of all the males in the 'church?'

The word you mentioned as "espousing," is actually a Greek word which is a carpentry term meaning 'to fit' together. The idea of betrothal is a doctrinal interpretation. "Husband" is just the word for a man. And Christ, in the Greek text, is not identified as that "man," but as the one to whom the "man," having been "fit together" would be presented to Christ.

Sadly, this small passage of scripture has been altered in English so that it bears very little resemblance to the original text.

This verse is a 'picture' of the Body of Christ, its members being fitted together to create a man and presented to Christ, the HEAD of that body. The carpentry term is used to parallel with the idea that the assembling of the Temple of Christ; which, in John's revelation, also refers to Christ as being the Temple in New Jerusalem.

Please understand that I do not intend on changing your understanding, nor to build on someone else's doctrinal foundation... I can only present God's Word as it is given to me. If my explanation offends, please forgive me.

 

[GodsGrace]

The lampstands are the manifestations of the Spirit within the people... The stars ARE the Holy Spirit. The letters are to those with one (or more) manifestation... Each letter's commendations and warnings represents the qualities of each of the seven assembling of manifestations in the people.
This is most difficult to understand because of how we've been taught to define "church." The Greek word ekklesia means "Called Out," and is related to the word "invited." It is commonly used as meaning of a "congregating" of people for a purpose. Our modern perspective of the meaning of church forces us to believe it's referring to a location of people gathered... In the language of Revelation, it's about identifying the people grouped by each of the seven manifestations of the Spirit.
In a modern "church," you are likely to have most, if not all of these "assembling of Spirit."
I have personally identified which of these letters are addressed to me... You can only access the meaning for your self by asking the Spirit to reveal your heart in light of these. It is similar as spiritual "gifts." We have to find our place and make corrections on our course, or the "lampstands" (manifestation of Spirit) will be removed.
One of these letters is awesome for those struggling with their faith, as it states a "door will be left open for you."

These are my ideas....

At the time that John was alive, I don't know that the "spirit" of our Christianity was understood to be as we understand it today.

When I read the Early Fathers they tend to speak of concrete ideas, concrete things that the early Christians were supposed to do, how they were supposed to live. Of course spirituality had a lot to do with this...but the way we speak of it today is different. Don't want to derail.

Agreed on Ekklesia. It refers to a gathering --- never heard of it meaning "called out", but OK. We are, in fact, called out (of the world).

But it was also understood to mean a meeting or gathering place...like the Agora in Athens, for instance.

So wouldn't you think that we could call a place where person gathered to Worship God could be called a church?
I'd say so.

I'm not sure what you mean by the MANIFESTATON OF THE SPIRT.

Are you saying that the 7 churches is referring more to PERSONAL problems we may have rather than the problems of a particular church? (the gathering place of Christians in any given city/town, etc.).

 

[GodsGrace]

YES. And I am very blessed that you would ask me. Thank you.

May I say to you, and I do this with much reservation.....I have studied escotology for the last 50 years.

It was what my thesis was all about. I did that because years ago, NO ONE knew anything about the end time. NO ONE spoke on it so it is what i decided I would find out about.

Seven Churches = ALL of the churches. SEVEN is a number in Scripture that means COMPLETNESS.

So when you see Seven Churches, each church mentioned had a specific that was unique to it, however it was also seen in ALL the other churches.

Another key to understanding is to allow the Scriptures to interpret themselves.

Rev. 1:9..........
" The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands are the seven churches."

Stars = Pastors of local churches. Stars give out "light" and light in the Scriptures indicates TRUTH.
It is through the preaching of the Word of God or giving out the LIGHT of the gospel that men are saved from sin.

Rodger,
Maybe this is why I find studying the end times so tedious.
You have a different understanding than another member on this thread.
How am I supposed to know who is right?
I know how to do this for Theology and Apologetics, but for Eschatology, I'm unable to find out the truth...
IS THERE A TRUTH? Or does everyone read into it what they believe to be correct?
Your references to Daniel and Zeccharia makes sense and Ireneaus mentions the candlestick as the 7 churches in one of his writings. A manora has 7 "branches".

What about 1:18 the keys death.

 

[Rodger]

Rodger,
Maybe this is why I find studying the end times so tedious.
You have a different understanding than another member on this thread.
How am I supposed to know who is right?
I know how to do this for Theology and Apologetics, but for Eschatology, I'm unable to find out the truth...
IS THERE A TRUTH? Or does everyone read into it what they believe to be correct?
Your references to Daniel and Zeccharia makes sense and Ireneaus mentions the candlestick as the 7 churches in one of his writings. A manora has 7 "branches".

What about 1:18 the keys death.

Well....I can tell you this, when you read what I post about the Revelation, please, please goggle search what
Dr. J Vernon Magee, Dr. Oliver B. Gree, Dr. John Walvoord, Dr. Dwight Pentecost, Dr. David Jerimiah, Dr. Ralph Hinson says about the very same quoted Scriptures and if I am in error, I will be the 1st to post an apology!

I will not post my educational credentials here but if you wanted to know you can PM me and I will be glad to tell you.

What is important is that what I post I support with Scriptures !!!!

As for the lampstand. In verse #12, It is SEVEN lampstands. These were not candlesticks, they were not menorahs, but they were free standing oil lamp stands. The lamps set on these lampstands.

This is an image that reminds us of the golden lampstand that stood in the tabernacle and the temple.
Again....check this out with Scripture(Exodus 25:31-37).

Yet this is different. The Old Covenant lampstand was one lampstand with seven lamps on it. Here in the New Covenant, we see seven lampstands. Seven in Bible mathematics = Completeness.

Now Rev. 1:18.........
"I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive forevermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death."

It means exactly what it says. As God in the flesh, Jesus has total controle of ALL things.

Colossians 1:16.........
" For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him".

From this Scripture we learn that Jesus is alive. He died, but death could not hold Him. He arose and is alive forevermore. The truth of the resurrection is unique to Christianity. All religions are based on a founder who died and did not come back to life. Christians know and serve a living Savior!

Jesus told John that He possesses the keys of Death and Hades. Death and the place of the departed dead are under the control of the risen Savior. Death in the Scriptures = Separated from God!

The Christian need not fear death or Hades, because death ushers him or her into Jesus' presence in heaven (1 Corinthians 15:51–57; 2 Corinthians 5:1–8; Philippians 1:21–23). Because Jesus possesses the keys to Death and Hades, He can open death's door at any time to allow a believer to enter heaven, and He can open and shut the gates of hell to confine unbelievers there forever.

Thanks for asking!

 

[Rodger]

You stated: "the 144,000 are not the bride... They are all male."

If being "male" disqualifies them as the bride, does that mean only females can be the bride of Christ? What of all the males in the 'church?'

The word you mentioned as "espousing," is actually a Greek word which is a carpentry term meaning 'to fit' together. The idea of betrothal is a doctrinal interpretation. "Husband" is just the word for a man. And Christ, in the Greek text, is not identified as that "man," but as the one to whom the "man," having been "fit together" would be presented to Christ.

Sadly, this small passage of scripture has been altered in English so that it bears very little resemblance to the original text.

This verse is a 'picture' of the Body of Christ, its members being fitted together to create a man and presented to Christ, the HEAD of that body. The carpentry term is used to parallel with the idea that the assembling of the Temple of Christ; which, in John's revelation, also refers to Christ as being the Temple in New Jerusalem.

Please understand that I do not intend on changing your understanding, nor to build on someone else's doctrinal foundation... I can only present God's Word as it is given to me. If my explanation offends, please forgive me.

No of course not. I was simply quoting from the Scriptures that the 144 K are all male Jews and as such can not be the Bride of Christ. They all come to Christ AFTER the Rapture so they can not be a part of the Church.

When the church is complete, it will be removed by the Rapture, THEN the 144 K are saved and become preachers and missionaries and are part of a great revival. However, the Tribulation saints are NOT part of the Church.

Now I qualify that by saying that a careful reading of Rev. 7:9-17 shows that the destiny of these believers is much different from the Church.

I hope that you understand that they’re specifically described as serving God in His Temple, and yet they are never called priests. This is a role never ascribed to the Church. In fact there is no Temple in the New Jerusalem, home of the church (Rev. 21:22).

Also there’s no mention of the saints in Rev. 7 ever ruling and reigning with Christ as is the Church’s destiny.

Then there is the Bible fact that during the SEVEN Year Tribulation, the plan of salvation changes!!!!
During the Church Age, the last 2000 years, God asks people to believe solely by faith (John 6:28-29), and promises blessings beyond those of any other group to those who do.

But once Daniel’s 70th week begins, God’s supernatural power will once again be on display for all to see. During that time belief in Him will be as much by evidence as by faith, like it was in the Old Testament plus those believers must follow the Commands of God!

Revelation 14:12...........
"Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus."

Believing in what you see is not as commendable to God as is believing what you don’t see, hence the different destiny of Tribulation believers from that of the Church.

I am never offended my friend. Please feel free to post your thoughts.

 

[Indentured Servant]

No of course not. I was simply quoting from the Scriptures that the 144 K are all male Jews and as such can not be the Bride of Christ. They all come to Christ AFTER the Rapture so they can not be a part of the Church.

When the church is complete, it will be removed by the Rapture, THEN the 144 K are saved and become preachers and missionaries and are part of a great revival. However, the Tribulation saints are NOT part of the Church.

Now I qualify that by saying that a careful reading of Rev. 7:9-17 shows that the destiny of these believers is much different from the Church.

I hope that you understand that they’re specifically described as serving God in His Temple, and yet they are never called priests. This is a role never ascribed to the Church. In fact there is no Temple in the New Jerusalem, home of the church (Rev. 21:22).

Also there’s no mention of the saints in Rev. 7 ever ruling and reigning with Christ as is the Church’s destiny.

Then there is the Bible fact that during the SEVEN Year Tribulation, the plan of salvation changes!!!!
During the Church Age, the last 2000 years, God asks people to believe solely by faith (John 6:28-29), and promises blessings beyond those of any other group to those who do.

But once Daniel’s 70th week begins, God’s supernatural power will once again be on display for all to see. During that time belief in Him will be as much by evidence as by faith, like it was in the Old Testament plus those believers must follow the Commands of God!

Revelation 14:12...........
"Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus."

Believing in what you see is not as commendable to God as is believing what you don’t see, hence the different destiny of Tribulation believers from that of the Church.

I am never offended my friend. Please feel free to post your thoughts.

Well, I certainly appreciate that you're not offended. You may be the first person who hasn't been. I've even lost communication with my own sister for less. (truthfully, as far as she's concerned, anyone who disagrees with her denominational viewpoints is a cultist)

I used to teach same as you spoke of, but having been a translator of Greek & Hebrew for nearly 25 years, and learning to be taught by our Lord in the Spirit has diminished much of my influence from traditional doctrinal narratives.

I admit I've abandoned most of the traditional interpretation of scripture that I'd taught, and been taught, for over three decades, and am no longer welcome in any of the churches i'd previously belonged to, or even taught or preached in because of this.

I've so much as had a very popular radio bible teacher, who is known for allowing people to disagree with him, insist that I follow what others believe or get off his site, which really is made up of nothing more than people wanting to compliment him for being a nice guy... I merely provided a factual etymology of a single word...

It is refreshing to have a discussion about what could be viewed as polar opposite viewpoints and still maintain shared respect - regardless of what either of us believes or teaches, we have what's important - Christ in us.

We'll all have the answers, hopefully soon.

 

[Indentured Servant]

No of course not. I was simply quoting from the Scriptures that the 144 K are all male Jews and as such can not be the Bride of Christ. They all come to Christ AFTER the Rapture so they can not be a part of the Church.

When the church is complete, it will be removed by the Rapture, THEN the 144 K are saved and become preachers and missionaries and are part of a great revival. However, the Tribulation saints are NOT part of the Church.

Now I qualify that by saying that a careful reading of Rev. 7:9-17 shows that the destiny of these believers is much different from the Church.

I hope that you understand that they’re specifically described as serving God in His Temple, and yet they are never called priests. This is a role never ascribed to the Church. In fact there is no Temple in the New Jerusalem, home of the church (Rev. 21:22).

Also there’s no mention of the saints in Rev. 7 ever ruling and reigning with Christ as is the Church’s destiny.

Then there is the Bible fact that during the SEVEN Year Tribulation, the plan of salvation changes!!!!
During the Church Age, the last 2000 years, God asks people to believe solely by faith (John 6:28-29), and promises blessings beyond those of any other group to those who do.

But once Daniel’s 70th week begins, God’s supernatural power will once again be on display for all to see. During that time belief in Him will be as much by evidence as by faith, like it was in the Old Testament plus those believers must follow the Commands of God!

Revelation 14:12...........
"Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus."

Believing in what you see is not as commendable to God as is believing what you don’t see, hence the different destiny of Tribulation believers from that of the Church.

I am never offended my friend. Please feel free to post your thoughts.

Oh, and thank you for clarifying the "male" issue... I'd hoped that not what you meant, haha.

 

[Rodger]

Well, I certainly appreciate that you're not offended. You may be the first person who hasn't been. I've even lost communication with my own sister for less. (truthfully, as far as she's concerned, anyone who disagrees with her denominational viewpoints is a cultist)

I used to teach same as you spoke of, but having been a translator of Greek & Hebrew for nearly 25 years, and learning to be taught by our Lord in the Spirit has diminished much of my influence from traditional doctrinal narratives.

I admit I've abandoned most of the traditional interpretation of scripture that I'd taught, and been taught, for over three decades, and am no longer welcome in any of the churches i'd previously belonged to, or even taught or preached in because of this.

I've so much as had a very popular radio bible teacher, who is known for allowing people to disagree with him, insist that I follow what others believe or get off his site, which really is made up of nothing more than people wanting to compliment him for being a nice guy... I merely provided a factual etymology of a single word...

It is refreshing to have a discussion about what could be viewed as polar opposite viewpoints and still maintain shared respect - regardless of what either of us believes or teaches, we have what's important - Christ in us.

We'll all have the answers, hopefully soon.

Agreed.

I must teel however that I am very much in the traditional wing of conservative understanding.

Actually, 100% of the prophecy on the last days we see in the Revelation does not matter to us at all.

We as the born again church simply will not be here to see if what we have taught comes true or not.

What we are doing here on forums is sharing what we believe to be what we think God is teaching us.
The key however is that we must not allow what we think to replace what God has said.

 

[Rodger]

Oh, and thank you for clarifying the "male" issue... I'd hoped that not what you meant, haha.

What else could they possibly be?????

Rev. 14:4
"These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb."

 

[Indentured Servant]

What else could they possibly be?????

Rev. 14:4
"These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb."

Oh, I was only commenting on the part of the conversation where I thought you were saying they couldn't be the bride because they were male... You clarified that wasn't your reasoning.
I was just responding that I was glad that wasn't what you were thinking of when you wrote that.

 

[Rodger]

Oh, I was only commenting on the part of the conversation where I thought you were saying they couldn't be the bride because they were male... You clarified that wasn't your reasoning.
I was just responding that I was glad that wasn't what you were thinking of when you wrote that.

OK. I understand now.