Kidron
Member
But isnt this "prevenient grace" strictly related to one choice, and one alone? (Salvation)
I was not aware that it operated in the free will arena of a person's complete choice life.
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Right and Wrong
- Thread starter Rollo Tamasi
- Start date
I was not aware that it operated in the free will arena of a person's complete choice life.
Kidron
Member
"What you do not wish for yourself, do not do to others"
Cool, i had not heard any Confucius, recently.
dianegcook
Member
Conscience :yes
No, it is not in our human nature. It is in our image that we get from God. It is called a conscience. Sorry, but I learned that from scripture and can't use it!
Where would such a law come from?
Isn't it your conscious?
Good morning.
Very interesting Kidron.
I have already considered this and I have doubts.
Could you possibly have it backwards?
You say that "right" is the divine guide within the conscience.
This would be true only if we knew what "right" was to begin with.
How do we know what "right" is to begin with?
Could that be some sort of moral law that God puts within us?
Then our conscience is able to respond to that and make a decision?
That would make this moral law a separate entity then our conscience.
Jethro Bodine
Member
That which injures another unfairly vs. that which is in their best interest.
Too late on the Bible guidance thingy. I've been forever infected by it's truth. Without it I'm as dumb as I look and have no opinions of my own. I'm not that smart or observant.
Justice might be the word you're grasping for. We see it at work even in the world. It seems to be an innate thing about being human. We all have a sense of it.
Abigail123
Member
Here's my thoughts for what they're worth
.Most of us will have a difficult time defining truth outside of God because that is our constant source of Truth and we have been taught and conditioned to go to Him for it. Right to us and to God is righteousness, which is doing that which is right in God's eyes, wrong would be to do that which is wrong in God's eyes, see we can't separate it from God because He sets the standards for what is right and wrong.
On the other hand, we could discuss morality, and even that man's morality is not the same as God's morality even though God has placed inside of us the soul, consciousness, so we instinctively know what is right and wrong, but there is a problem with this, too. We can chose to believe in absolute morality which should be taken to mean that our moral directive (doing "right") remains the same no matter the situation.
I'm a moral absolutist (I think relativism is a justification for sin) yet if asked I wouldn't tell the Nazis about the Jews under my floorboards. In that case it's not lying, is it? The Nazi doesn't have a right to that information (protecting by lying is right, isn't it?). I wouldn't condemn a man, whose children are about to starve to death, if he stole food to feed them; he has a right to live and I'm not sure I'd call it stealing because of that. Stealing is wrong in most cases, yet to save your children it would be the right action to take.
I think the base morality stays the same (doing that which is right) while it may be the case that depending on the situation, we may need to act differently (which might appear to be wrong).
Here's my thoughts for what they're worth
Most of us will have a difficult time defining truth outside of God because that is our constant source of Truth and we have been taught and conditioned to go to Him for it. Right to us and to God is righteousness, which is doing that which is right in God's eyes, wrong would be to do that which is wrong in God's eyes, see we can't separate it from God because He sets the standards for what is right and wrong.
On the other hand, we could discuss morality, and even that man's morality is not the same as God's morality even though God has placed inside of us the soul, consciousness, so we instinctively know what is right and wrong, but there is a problem with this, too. We can chose to believe in absolute morality which should be taken to mean that our moral directive (doing "right") remains the same no matter the situation.
I'm a moral absolutist (I think relativism is a justification for sin) yet if asked I wouldn't tell the Nazis about the Jews under my floorboards. In that case it's not lying, is it? The Nazi doesn't have a right to that information (protecting by lying is right, isn't it?). I wouldn't condemn a man, whose children are about to starve to death, if he stole food to feed them; he has a right to live and I'm not sure I'd call it stealing because of that. Stealing is wrong in most cases, yet to save your children it would be the right action to take.
I think the base morality stays the same (doing that which is right) while it may be the case that depending on the situation, we may need to act differently (which might appear to be wrong).
Good post Abigail, let me add something here.
This morality as we are calling it, it is there, we know it.
We judge others by it yet we fail to keep it ourselves.
This we know for sure, it is there, it is good, and we fail to keep it.
Therefore, I see it as something outside of us, not our conscience, and yet it seems to attach itself to us, whether we know there is a God or not.
Now where does that take us?
It seems to lead up to a higher being that is trying to communicate something to us.
It seems to be telling us that good is right, therefore, this higher being is good.
We call it God.
And if it cares whether we are good or not, it must be personal in some way.
Interesting thought, justice.
Where does it come from?
How do we decide what it is and whether or not it really exists?
Abigail123
Member
\
Yet different societies have different man made morals set in place to run their communities and they are not always the same with other culture morality rules. There are societies that place a lower emphasis on the value of life than others, in other cultures, lying is ok, yet in others having many wives is looked upon as success. This is the reason why I said our morality is different than God's and it is only in His eyes that it can be viewed as right. He commanded people to kill in the OT, this was right in his eyes, but in many cases our morality looks down upon it.
We can't compare our morality with God's and make claims man's morality and God's are the same. We have an instinct to do what is right yet our societal rules overshadow them sometimes, it's why only God can deem something right.
There are non-Christians who behave in a manner that is more becoming than some Christians I've encountered, so believing in a higher power does not necessarily cause a person to behave in an upright and honest way. The difference between believers and non believers is the power of Christ in us, transforming us from the inside out so that our actions emulate Christ in and through the divine nature. One is behavior modification, the other is the transformation of a life to the image of Christ.
Kidron
Member
Because God is a divine moral "light"..., as well as being "Love".....then he is at least these 2 things...."Truth and Love".
And in both cases, he is the root, the essence, and the absolute.
So, as the thread's question has to do with the moral aspect and where it started, then what i said was that if we as "humans" are created as a type of being that is connected intimately with God, and as God is >A< Spirit, and not just any spirit, then the part of us that is created to be "like him", is not our physical realm.
It would be the inner man that is "like" God., or "made in his image".
So, if in us is a part of God's nature, and as he IS Truth, then this would be the type divine energy that >naturally< govern-functions within our inner selves, that acts as a mediator within our choice life.
So, yes, we are naturally as originally created, ""beings of truth".
And what happened was/is.......when the fall came, the Nature in us was given a split, and we became knowers of right with a desire to lust., or to do wrong.
And that is the human condition.
We are a divine spark that is hindered by the appetites of the fallen flesh.
Thats the war of a lifetime for each of us, in that we are trapped inside this battle.
And once Born Again, we are empowered to be able to resist the flesh, but, in no way are we recreated to be able to ignore it.
This is why Paul tells you to mortify or kill as best you can, the flesh.. This is because, its hungry
The key to this, to overcoming the flesh.... is not to resist it in the physical realm, but rather to rest completely in the Grace of God, in the security of continual forgiveness and mercy,.... to become so deeply in touch with the reality of the pardon that God has given, that by doing so, you become freed by Grace regarding fleshly appetite things, that if you just try to resist them by willpower, you will only actually increase your desire to do them.
Mankind became aware of right and wrong when Adam and Eve partook of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
Also, I think Paul explained it quite accurately as recorded in Romans1 and 2 (NKJV)
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them.
20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,
21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.
12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law
13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified;
14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves,
15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them)
16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.
Because God is a divine moral "light"..., as well as being "Love".....then he is at least these 2 things...."Truth and Love".
And in both cases, he is the root, the essence, and the absolute.
So, as the thread's question has to do with the moral aspect and where it started, then what i said was that if we as "humans" are created as a type of being that is connected intimately with God, and as God is >A< Spirit, and not just any spirit, then the part of us that is created to be "like him", is not our physical realm.
It would be the inner man that is "like" God., or "made in his image".
So, if in us is a part of God's nature, and as he IS Truth, then this would be the type divine energy that >naturally< govern-functions within our inner selves, that acts as a mediator within our choice life.
So, yes, we are naturally as originally created, ""beings of truth".
And what happened was/is.......when the fall came, the Nature in us was given a split, and we became knowers of right with a desire to lust., or to do wrong.
And that is the human condition.
We are a divine spark that is hindered by the appetites of the fallen flesh.
Thats the war of a lifetime for each of us, in that we are trapped inside this battle.
And once Born Again, we are empowered to be able to resist the flesh, but, in no way are we recreated to be able to ignore it.
This is why Paul tells you to mortify or kill as best you can, the flesh.. This is because, its hungry
The key to this, to overcoming the flesh.... is not to resist it in the physical realm, but rather to rest completely in the Grace of God, in the security of continual forgiveness and mercy,.... to become so deeply in touch with the reality of the pardon that God has given, that by doing so, you become freed by Grace regarding fleshly appetite things, that if you just try to resist them by willpower, you will only actually increase your desire to do them.
Kidron, you said one thing here I question.
"when the fall came, the nature in us was given a split, and we became knowers of right with a desire to lust, or to do wrong".
I don't know if we read the Bible the same or not, but they seemed to have a desire to sin, or do wrong, before they ate from the Tree that is in the middle of the Garden.
Kidron
Member
Well, you'll recall that Adam and Jesus were both sinless Sons of God.
Both could be "tempted".
One fell, one hung.
Eve was tempted, Adam made a choice., the end result was that both died spiritually.
Here is the thing about Eve, regarding your point that she was tempted...
Temptation is not the sin itself.....Its acting on the temptation internally past the point of being tempted only.... so that you then respond physically or mentally, that is the transgression.
"tempted without sin".
"tempted to sin".
"tempted and sinned".
Its a progression of lust, that evolves in stages, and if we cut it off before we get past the point of the choice to do it, then we are good to go.
For example.
A man is in a gym, and a beautiful young woman, in tight gym shorts, walks past him to the next machine and starts to stretch.
So, the man notices.
In his mind he sees a movie begin..
This is temptation.
The fruit of the Spirit in him, his conscience, hits him with a rebuke...
At THAT POINT< he evaluates, and responds to ither keep playing the movie, or change the channel.
Right in there, temptation ither becomes the deed, or it became cast down.
This thread has turned into a Bible study.
That was not my intentions.
If there were no Bible and no Christianity and no knowledge given to us of God, could we still know that there is a God and that he is good and that he wants us to be good?
How is it possible for us to come to this conclusion?
That was not my intentions.
If there were no Bible and no Christianity and no knowledge given to us of God, could we still know that there is a God and that he is good and that he wants us to be good?
How is it possible for us to come to this conclusion?
Jethro Bodine
Member
Because we are made in the image of God (though horribly stained at this present time), the human race has within itself an innate understanding of justice.
For as bad as the world is it still maintains a fairly good sense of justice. They know that justice is measured by how people have been hurt by it's absence--by how it affects people's well-being.
Look at an example of the world rising up to defend justice in this article:
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world...rare-a-nazi-who-admits-what-he-did/ar-AAbAacG
Jethro Bodine
Member
By simple observation of how people suffer at the hands of others.