Sabbath Day business

[Rollo Tamasi]

Thanks for the try, Rollo. I don't follow what you mean by, "... and the self will to do just that."
Where did that come from, please?

Yes, we are by definition, speaking of Spiritual Rest in God ... I'm with you so far. And I also notice that you missed the "stammering lips" portion which is very significant, is it not? Was that on purpose?

The self will part is related to the passage in Isaiah 30:15 where we are told to return to repentance.
This is the refreshing, turning back to God in our own free will.
The stammering lips I am not sure of.
Is he saying outsiders will speak in a different way to present the truth to Ephraim?
I don't know.

 

[Sparkey]

Oh, okay. You're adding the 30:15 Scripture to the 28:11 -- all found in the mouth and writings of the Prophet and the Law.

I can see that better now. Thank you. It does sound similar, doesn't it? They both conclude with the "and you would not" thought too.

But, and again, can you agree that it at least does sound like a definition? I've edited my reply. And we crossed communications onto another page. Here's the edit:

QUOTE: Would you care to agree that at least the Scripture quoted does sound like a definition?

Here is what it sounds like (to me): "this IS that." That's a formula. The context is speaking with stammering lips, right? Then comes the formula, "this IS that," or more specifically, "this IS the rest..." and again, "this IS the refreshing..."​

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

When we tie in Isaiah 30;15, we see the self will not to return to God, then the self will to return to God.
This ties in with Luke 19;14 where the people chose not to listen to God.
The rest is the refreshing done by repentance.
But they chose not to do it.

A formula?
Please explain.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

I'm unsure about a definition.
You need to explain how the stammering lips fit in.

 

[Sparkey]

A definition and a formulaic statement carrying the weight of a definition. So if I asked, Mr. Google for a definition about Rest and it said, "This is that," it would sound like a formula or a definition to me.

The Scripture I quoted sounds like a definition, does it not?

To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.

This is the rest
and again, This is the refreshing

That sounds like we are being given a definition or an explanation, if you'd rather.

 

[Sparkey]

You need to explain how the stammering lips fit in.

Not.

I asked the initial question and invited scholars to comment specifically on that particular Scripture. My comment was, "It does indeed sound like a definition to me."

But now you say that I need to do this? It's okay to pass and to say that you would like to give others a try. I was actually hoping for an expert, so called -- to try to wedge that clear Scripture about Rest into their thought that all mention of a Sabbath means Saturday Sabbath which clearly is not the case. I think that we are missing too much when we settle for convenient definitions like "Sabbath Rest == Saturday". I don't like others trying to misinterpret things.

So I do appreciate your thinking here but my questions stand as yet unanswered. That's okay and if I don't get a response in the next couple days I'll withdraw.

But I don't own this thread by any means and don't want to squealch you ... please do continue as you like, I'm willing to listen if you have more to say. This, the subject of Sabbath and REST, is one of our favorite subjects, and for good reason too!

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Okay, good bye.

 

[Jesus Martyr]

(Isa 28:11) For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.

.......(Deu 28:49) The LORD shall bring a nation against thee from far, from the end of the earth, as swift as the eagle flieth; a nation whose tongue thou shalt not understand;

(Isa 33:19) Thou shalt not see a fierce people, a people of a deeper speech than thou canst perceive; of a stammering tongue, that thou canst not understand.

Meaning revealed; It was concerning the gift of tongues

(1Co 14:21) In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.

The Nation of those redeemed, (True Israel/Church) as opposed to the Jews, who were cut off and the Blessings given to the Holy Assembly of believers; (who later were speaking in different languages (acts 2:6)... and even then not heard as in 1 cor 14;21)

(Mat 21:43)Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

Rom 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith...

(Mat 13:13)Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

 

[Sparkey]

Jesus Martyr It sounds like you are onto something here.

I see you've quoted Deut 28:49 and Isa 33:19
Question: Have you studied this subject before? Sounds to me like you have on your lips an authoritative answer to my questions(?).

Okay, let me prompt you a bit because I think we are on the same page. This kind of thing reminds me also of how God does things with parables. Here's a bit more about what I mean.

"For whoever has, to him more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has shall be taken away from him. "Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. "In their case the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled, which says, 'YOU WILL KEEP ON HEARING, BUT WILL NOT UNDERSTAND; YOU WILL KEEP ON SEEING, BUT WILL NOT PERCEIVE;… (quoted Mt 13:13 non-copyrighted version) (( I know I'm speaking to Jesus in you ))

There we have another piece to the puzzle, right? God's okay with us hearing the truth but he also knows now to reserve those who are for judgment -- there is absolutely no danger of anybody sneaking into heaven through some back door. We are free to speak the truth!

Please feel free to speak more about Sabbath, Jesus Martyr. Or just tell us things that are from the abundance of your heart. It is the same thing. I like the coloring book editions of things so don't worry about dumbing-it-down too much. I also enjoy chewing a bit of steak every once in-awhile, so, like I said before, feel free! I really do want more on this subject of Sabbath that has been poured into your heart.

 

[jocor]

To reiterate the two questions:

1. Do you agree that the Scripture sounds like a definition?
2. Did you mean to skip the significance of "stammering lips" completely and on purpose or was that just oversight?

Thanks in advance for your next attempt! I was hoping that somebody here might want to explain the Isa 28 verse in light of their belief about 7th Day Rest. The 2 Questions APPLY to all who care to answer. Other scholars are welcome!

As Rollo pointed out, the rest referred to is a "spiritual rest" that comes through obeying the Word of YHWH, including the 7th day rest. It is through the Word that Israel was taught knowledge and understood doctrine. The 7th day rest is primarily a physical rest, but it results in a spiritual rest because we are doing what is right in YHWH's eyes as He commanded. When Israel broke the physical Sabbath rest, they suffered the chastening of YHWH and lost their spiritual rest.

I do not see a "definition" in verse 12. The "stammering lips" refers to the mocking lips of the Chaldean army whose "tongue" YHWH used to speak to Israel. It can also be applied to the Roman army of Yeshua's day.

 

[Sparkey]

I do not see a "definition" in verse 12.

ORLY?

You don't see a definition. I am surprised (not). How come you deny seeing a definition there? If I said (in any other context) "This IS that," would you still object? For instance, if I said, 'THIS' == jocor and 'THAT' == 'Nice guy', would you miss the fact that I just defined you to be a nice guy? I'm betting not. If I was talking about something that had a secret meaning and later said, "This is that which [I was talking about earlier]," would you still be able to fail to connect the dots?"

Have you wondered why you are blinded like that? It's clearly a definition. No question. The only question that remains is how you are not able to see that simple fact.

PS - CONGRATS on your 1,000th POST here at ChristianForums.NET !!​

 

[Jesus Martyr]

Thank you Sparrow you are very appreciated! I have been just about as busy as I could possibly be here I believe you can click on my name and "follow me", I have been posting a lot here since I joined a few days ago. I love providing Holy Writ to reveal God's answers. It is so much easier than using my little brain trying to think stuff up to answer haha! And much more fun.
Yes, I rest in His Sabbath continually and forever in the Land of Promise So do we all who believe! No more shadow-type one-day-a-week stuff for me, the REAL Sabbath is Here. The LORD of the Sabbath is Here. I go where He goes! I sanctify myself before my God and stay in His Rest always. No concerns for ME to walk with Him and pick corn and rub it in my hands and eat it on ANY day It would be a huge gigantic step backwards to attempt to stuff the True Sabbath back into those one-day-a-week wineskins. Talk about a mess THAT would make haha!
With Love always!

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I was hoping that somebody here might want to explain the Isa 28 verse in light of their belief about 7th Day Rest.

The literal Mosaic Sabbath rest was required to be kept by the Isrealites. It was included in the commands of the covenant that they had to keep in order to live in and enjoy God's manifest abundance for them. But the message of that rest--obeying God's commands--got lost and inaccessible to the Israelites because of the corrupt leadership that distorted and abused it. The word of God had in effect become muddled and unintelligible to them because of their unbelief. Which was the point Paul was trying to make when explaining to the church that tongues (unknown languages) are for unbelievers, not for believers. To those who believe the word of God is understandable. That's why it's unfitting to speak in an unknown language in the church without interpretation--the veiled, not understood word of God is for unbelievers. For the Israelites that meant not understanding God's command to obey Sabbath rest, and obey all the other commands, for if they did keep it and all the others they would enter into that rest.

"21 In the Law it is written, "BY MEN OF STRANGE TONGUES AND BY THE LIPS OF STRANGERS I WILL SPEAK TO THIS PEOPLE, AND EVEN SO THEY WILL NOT LISTEN TO ME," says the Lord. 22 So then tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophecy is for a sign, not to unbelievers but to those who believe." (1 Corinthians 14:21-22 NASB capitals in original)

Not understanding God's word, and therefore, not keeping it, is a sign that you are under God's judgment, just as it was for the Israelites.

 

[Sparkey]

The "stammering lips" refers to the mocking lips

You are quite correct there. And indeed there is even more to see. It's like they were saying that the Prophet lacked knowledge and was talking like he was a child -- they were mocking him, they were the brilliant ones with their wisdom of words. I also notice that many translators prefer the translation, "with the lips and tongues of foreigners" or something equivalent so you're not the only one who sees it like that.
________________________________________
Jesus Martyr You are very welcome, O Sweet Smell! and I see you took me literally and just let it flow from the abundance of your heart. Thank you.

May I tell you a story about REST, please? I'm the main character (or so it appears) so pardon my bragging -- but still, it's a good story.

So there I was and it was Saturday and I was going to go to the little church that me and my family attended. You might like to know it was called "King of Glory Pentecostal" but church flavor doesn't matter here at all. It was a tiny little church and it had a white steeple too! The entire church was comprised of blacks (African Americans?) -- race doesn't matter here either! But I remember feeling like I was the "only popcorn face in a sea of black" while we joined in worship. This isn't my church home (we moved) and I'm not trying to promote that little assembly -- just setting the stage.

Now, here is something peculiar with me. Early on in my Christian life (I'm 62 years old) I understood that the Bread of Life was worth way more than grocery store bread. So I told the Lord that if I were ever able to trade bread (my bread, from a local bakery) for HIS BREAD, I'd be the beneficiary! So there I was, on my way to Saturday church service (they weren't 7th Day people - they were every day people) and I knew there was going to be kids there because we had a whole afternoon planned out. Now I said that I'd be the star of this story but that's not quite true because here came the real star... It came in a simple idea. I thought of my "bread deal" and stopped at the Pizza place and ordered three large. It was a small (poor) church so that would be enough and I was blessed financially in a mighty way then so the cost was nothing to me.

When I got there (here's a picture from Google Maps):
View attachment 7162

... when I got there, I parked the van and my kids piled out. I grabbed the pizza and we went in. It wasn't very long (within a minute) that the kids there smelled the pizza. And it was then that I heard something very curious. Tiny little voices began to cry out:

"It is the LORD."

"It is the LORD."

"It is the LORD!"​

Yes. The STAR of the SHOW had arrived. It was not me. It was not the pizza. It is the LORD!

I was curious so I asked. Turns out that the kids were hungry and they had asked about lunch but the adults that had planned the deal didn't have the money (it's a poor church - but lovely!) and so they didn't have anything for the kids. So what do them little angles do? They say, "I know! Let's pray ;)

What can the adults do in the face of faith like that. They let the kids gather together and circle to join hands in the NAME.

I didn't get a text message. Nobody called me on the phone. What really happened was years and years ago, the Holy Spirit dropped something into me. A mini-revelation, if you will. I knew the meaning of bread.

Thank you for sharing your bread.

I'm here to say, "It is the LORD!"

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I do not see a "definition" in verse 12. The "stammering lips" refers to the mocking lips of the Chaldean army whose "tongue" YHWH used to speak to Israel. It can also be applied to the Roman army of Yeshua's day.

In context I believe it is referring to the distorted and unitelligible message of Israel's priests and prophets. The word of the Lord becoming that to the nation because of their disobedience and unbelief.

 

[Sparkey]

Jethro Bodine
Thank you! Yes. Very grateful for the history lesson too! Each part of this puzzle, as it keeps falling in place -- is like RAIN! This is the rest. This is the refreshing.

We are MYRTLE! This means Peace and Thanksgiving. It's also the meaning of the Hebrew word that was Esther's name. This is what she brought to her people. There is a time of preparation and All of our Prayers are answered! We are commanded to ENTER INTO HIS REST.

In context I believe it is referring to the distorted and unitelligible message of Israel's priests and prophets.

Yes, there's a whole lot behind that one Scripture that was picked in me. There is a message of mockery and great dynamic between "those in charge" and "those in service."

PLUS(!) Paul quoted that Scripture directly so we get his insights provided directly. Jethro, can you speak more about the tie-in to 1 Cor 14:21 and context there? The Holy Spirit has provided this meal for us. I'm wanting to break that bread together in peace and thanksgiving.

 

[Jesus Martyr]

You are quite correct there. And indeed there is even more to see. It's like they were saying that the Prophet lacked knowledge and was talking like he was a child -- they were mocking him, they were the brilliant ones with their wisdom of words. I also notice that many translators prefer the translation, "with the lips and tongues of foreigners" or something equivalent so you're not the only one who sees it like that.
________________________________________
Jesus Martyr You are very welcome, O Sweet Smell! and I see you took me literally and just let it flow from the abundance of your heart. Thank you.

May I tell you a story about REST, please? I'm the main character (or so it appears) so pardon my bragging -- but still, it's a good story.

So there I was and it was Saturday and I was going to go to the little church that me and my family attended. You might like to know it was called "King of Glory Pentecostal" but church flavor doesn't matter here at all. It was a tiny little church and it had a white steeple too! The entire church was comprised of blacks (African Americans?) -- race doesn't matter here either! But I remember feeling like I was the "only popcorn face in a sea of black" while we joined in worship. This isn't my church home (we moved) and I'm not trying to promote that little assembly -- just setting the stage.

Now, here is something peculiar with me. Early on in my Christian life (I'm 62 years old) I understood that the Bread of Life was worth way more than grocery store bread. So I told the Lord that if I were ever able to trade bread (my bread, from a local bakery) for HIS BREAD, I'd be the beneficiary! So there I was, on my way to Saturday church service (they weren't 7th Day people - they were every day people) and I knew there was going to be kids there because we had a whole afternoon planned out. Now I said that I'd be the star of this story but that's not quite true because here came the real star... It came in a simple idea. I thought of my "bread deal" and stopped at the Pizza place and ordered three large. It was a small (poor) church so that would be enough and I was blessed financially in a mighty way then so the cost was nothing to me.

When I got there (here's a picture):
View attachment 7162

... when I got there, I parked the van and my kids piled out. I grabbed the pizza and we went in. It wasn't very long (within a minute) that the kids there smelled the pizza. And it was then that I heard something very curious. Tiny little voices began to cry out:

"It is the LORD."

"It is the LORD."

"It is the LORD!"​

Yes. The STAR of the SHOW had arrived. It was not me. It was not the pizza. It is the LORD!

I was curious so I asked. Turns out that the kids were hungry and they had asked about lunch but the adults that had planned the deal didn't have the money (it's a poor church - but lovely!) and so they didn't have anything for the kids. So what do them little angles do? They say, "I know! Let's pray.)

What can the adults do in the face of faith like that. They let the kids gather together and circle to join hands in the NAME.

I didn't get a text message. Nobody called me on the phone. What really happened was years and years ago, the Holy Spirit dropped something into me. A mini-revelation, if you will. I knew the meaning of bread.

Thank you for sharing your bread.

I'm here to say, "It is the LORD!"

(Ecc 11:1) Cast thy bread upon the waters; for thou shalt find it after many days.

(Joh 6:35) Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life...

 

[Sparkey]

(( changing metaphors from bread to fish -- remind you of any little boy you know? You're here. Jesus is here. We are sharing HIS MEAL -- This is the REST, This is the REFRESHING ))

Our Master Fisherman is by nature a PROVIDER extreme. We are called to join together and become His net.
Remember earlier when there was all that floatsum and jetsum and junk in you and you looked inside and said, "YIKES!" and were dismayed because the new heart that had been given to you wanted only to please your heavenly Father?

Well then what happened? Trouble. That's what happened. God knows how to take perfect care of us. And he knows each heart. It's sad (in a way) that He has to work so hard to get us to the place where we call out for His help but that's what happens. It's okay. During the time of our trouble, we know (because the HS is faithful to prompt us) to call out to Him. Then He reaches in. That was HIS Hand, touching your heart for He does not trust that kind of thing to any other, so precious are you(!) -- it was His gentle hand reaching in, plucking out that yechy stuff. And there's good reason too. It's because He cares for His net. If He left that junk in, then when the BIG LOAD came (it's not quite here yet, as we see things) the net would be torn. We are His net. He is PROVIDER extreme but, and at the same time, He is PROTECTOR extreme too.

We are to hold still for a little while longer and there is yet some prep to do. But all those things, the timing of things... we work with Him, the Master, and as we do? Something happens. We don't do anything but yet it happens. A TRUST relationship is built. That's how you can hear His word in me and love me at first sight.

And we are told to celebrate first steps too! So now, if this is known to be a first step, what's the end-point of that journey? We don't know. We shall be like HIM. There will be a nation, born-in-a-day. They will speak the same things. It was only two minutes ago that I heard a FB ding on my computer and turned from writing here and spoke the Word of God into the heart of a stranger who had innocently replied to something on my sister's Facebook -->and she too recognized jesus in me. I'm standing here just saying stuff and talking and in full out JOY because here's the key -- "My burden is easy," means that if you can't do it in joy? That's okay. This is the REST and this is the REFRESHING. Wait for a moment. Who is there better than HIM to wait upon?

How do you spell hallejujah? It doesn't matter. We can shout even if we can't spell!

(Ecc 11:1) Cast thy bread upon the waters; for thou shalt find it after many days.

(Joh 6:35) Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life...

Our Sabbath Rest sometimes means just that. Hold Still. Know that He is God. Who better to wait upon than HIM?!?

 

[Jesus Martyr]

(( changing metaphors from bread to fish -- remind you of any little boy you know? You're here. Jesus is here. We are sharing HIS MEAL -- This is the REST, This is the REFRESHING ))

Our Master Fisherman is by nature a PROVIDER extreme. We are called to join together and become His net.
Remember earlier when there was all that floatsum and jetsum and junk in you and you looked inside and said, "YIKES!" and were dismayed because the new heart that had been given to you wanted only to please your heavenly Father?

Well then what happened? Trouble. That's what happened. God knows how to take perfect care of us. And he knows each heart. It's sad (in a way) that He has to work so hard to get us to the place where we call out for His help but that's what happens. It's okay. During the time of our trouble, we know (because the HS is faithful to prompt us) to call out to Him. Then He reaches in. That was HIS Hand, touching your heart for He does not trust that kind of thing to any other, so precious are you(!) -- it was His gentle hand reaching in, plucking out that yechy stuff. And there's good reason too. It's because He cares for His net. If He left that junk in, then when the BIG LOAD came (it's not quite here yet, as we see things) the net would be torn. We are His net. He is PROVIDER extreme but, and at the same time, He is PROTECTOR extreme too.

We are to hold still for a little while longer and there is yet some prep to do. But all those things, the timing of things... we work with Him, the Master, and as we do? Something happens. We don't do anything but yet it happens. A TRUST relationship is built. That's how you can hear His word in me and love me at first sight.

And we are told to celebrate first steps too! So now that's known to be a first step. What's the end-point of that journey? We don't know. We shall be like HIM. There will be a nation, born-in-a-day. They will speak the same things. It was only two minutes ago that I heard a FB ding on my computer and turned from writing here and spoke the Word of God into the heart of a stranger and she too recognized jesus in me. I'm standing here just saying stuff and talking and in full out JOY because here's the key -- "My burden is easy," means that if you can't do it in joy? That's okay. This is the REST and this is the REFRESHING. Wait for a moment. Who is there better than HIM to wait upon?

How do you spell hallejujah? It doesn't matter. We can shout even if we can't spell!

Did you know that in that net of fishes of 153, that is the exact number of saved men and women mentioned by name in the New Testament?

(Joh 21:11) Simon Peter therefore went up, and drew the net to land, full of great fishes, a hundred and fifty and three: and for all there were so many, the net was not rent.
:woot

 

[Sparkey]

Nope. Didn't know this.
There were one hundred and fifty-three people who were mentioned by name in the NT?
Who has time to count things like that? Hahahahaha! That's hilarious. But maybe what's funnier is that I'm also a geek and could see myself setting down the dictionary (which I actually read for enjoyment) in order to start counting on my fingers and toes and then... making little marks on paper for the name of each person saved.

Well, not really... but kind of. We are a very peculiar people. Any time somebody calls me "weird" or "strange" I'm like, "Ahhhh... really?" The PC form of that would be 'peculiar' --> if you don't mind(!) and I try to pretend like I just squelched out an edited, "Harrumph," somewhere in there too.

153 indeed.

The key to being weird is this. God loves you the way you are! Yep. We are given keys. I like naming them.