Sabbath Day business

[JLB]

(Isa 28:11) For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.

.......(Deu 28:49) The LORD shall bring a nation against thee from far, from the end of the earth, as swift as the eagle flieth; a nation whose tongue thou shalt not understand;

(Isa 33:19) Thou shalt not see a fierce people, a people of a deeper speech than thou canst perceive; of a stammering tongue, that thou canst not understand.

Meaning revealed; It was concerning the gift of tongues

(1Co 14:21) In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.

The Nation of those redeemed, (True Israel/Church) as opposed to the Jews, who were cut off and the Blessings given to the Holy Assembly of believers; (who later were speaking in different languages (acts 2:6)... and even then not heard as in 1 cor 14;21)

(Mat 21:43)Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

Rom 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith...

(Mat 13:13)Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

Yes, the infilling or Baptism of the Holy Spirit is truly the refreshing. The evidence that this has occurred is the speaking with other tongues.

This would be the only way those of the circumcision believed that Gentiles indeed had received the Holy Spirit.

And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Acts 10:45-46


JLB

 

[Sparkey]

JLB Have you been taught that one must speak in tongues (as evidence) when filled with the HS?
Pardon, it's another short side track, but I hope you don't mind.

I also notice (like you) that Paul used the Isaiah quote about "foreign" tongue while teaching about the Spirit Baptism and Holy Spirituals (Gifts) to the Corinthians. I'm just not convinced that modern Pentecostal teachers are getting the full idea (yet). So if you have insight from Him, I would welcome it and love to hear about it.

 

[Sparkey]

Okay, one last thing:

I don't think anyone's arguing the nursery rhyme aspect. It's the point that what is being spoken to them is foreign and not understandable to them. We know that's the case by how Paul uses the passage to show how you have to understand the words being spoken in order to know what the words are saying. That's where the element of meaningless gibberish comes in.

So, if you've never heard Swahili before and somebody said, "Jambo, malaika (mal-eye-kah)," (sorry, I don't know how to write or spell) even though you would not know to say, "Jambo sana," in reply, you could not rightly call it "meaningless". You could say, "That sounds like gibberish," and all would hear your implied [to me] at the end of your exasperation.

BUT(!) It's not meaningless if it carries meaning. You use words better than that. I'm surprised that I had to teach you this.

 

[JLB]

For so many the word of God's rest and repose has become meaningless words because of 1) a corrupt leadership that teaches it as meaningless, and 2) the unbelieving hearts of the people who are listening to them.

Could you give an example of corrupt leadership teaching it's "meaningless".

One way a person may not be able to hear the message of rest is; The Sabbath according to the law of Moses must be maintained throughout the New Covenant... I find this to be the case with those that support keeping the law of Moses today.


JLB

 

[JLB]

JLB Have you been taught that one must speak in tongues (as evidence) when filled with the HS?
Pardon, it's another short side track, but I hope you don't mind.

I also notice (like you) that Paul used the Isaiah quote about "foreign" tongue while teaching about the Spirit Baptism and Holy Spirituals (Gifts) to the Corinthians. I'm just not convinced that modern Pentecostal teachers are getting the full idea (yet). So if you have insight from Him, I would welcome it and love to hear about it.

I posted the insight I have from the scriptures.


This would be the only way those of the circumcision believed that Gentiles indeed had received the Holy Spirit.

And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Acts 10:45-46

The reason those of the circumcision believed the gift of the Holy Spirit was poured out upon the Gentiles was: they heard them speak in tongues...

That is the way they knew and were convinced...

That was the evidence that Gentiles had the Holy Spirit poured out upon them, as they had at the beginning.

The beginning being the day of Pentecost...

And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them, as upon us at the beginning. Acts 11:15


JLB

 

[Sparkey]

Thanks for the quick reply, I thought it would be short side-track. Guess what? I was right (about that).

Thanks again. :nod

 

[Sparkey]

I'm of a mind that Sabbath Business is REST. It's tied in to HS Baptism because that's how all works that endure are done.
It's a, "Come unto me all ye who are heavy burdened and I will give you REST." Kind of thing. Jesus said that; Joel (and other prophets) also spoke about Sabbath but we don't yet have the full understanding of what the Holy Spirit was saying. Pentecostals have done a bunch of bible studies on the subject but they see it slanted in terms of The Gift (which they know they experience).

We are still following rules grounded in nursery rhyme schooling. Here a little, there a little, instruction upon instruction, precept with precept. God does not teach doctrine to those fresh from the breast.

Staying there, in the milk of the word, isn't bad in, and of, itself. Some like milk with every meal. That's fine. We do know and have heard about the simplicity of the Gospel of Jesus. But that is not to say there is no meat provided for those who are to mature. Healthy bodies need more than milk. Chew on this: Our work IS to enter HIS rest. Just try to pray unceasingly (without Him).

Now that's gibberish.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

So, if you've never heard Swahili before and somebody said, "Jambo, malaika (mal-eye-kah)," (sorry, I don't know how to write or spell) even though you would not know to say, "Jambo sana," in reply, you could not rightly call it "meaningless". You could say, "That sounds like gibberish," and all would hear your implied [to me] at the end of your exasperation.

BUT(!) It's not meaningless if it carries meaning. You use words better than that. I'm surprised that I had to teach you this.

You're still not grasping what I'm saying.

We know the words themselves are not gibberish. The message of the words is what is meaningless gibberish to the hearers. Just as tongues without interpretation is meaningless to the hearers. How do we know this? Paul uses the passage to illustrate the uselessness of not being able to comprehend words being spoken.

So you see, it's not about the phrase being likened to a children's rhyme. It's not about the actual words themselves being foreign. It's about the meaning of the words and their message being like a foreign language to the hearers. The Israelites knew the command to enter into rest, but they could not comprehend that message so as to obey it. The effect of their inability to 'hear' was as if the message of rest--the gospel message--was in a foreign tongue, or in the malformed sentences of a child or a drunkard. Can you 'hear' what I'm saying now, or am I still speaking as in a foreign language, or as a stammering child that can not be comprehended?

 

[Sparkey]

You're still not grasping what I'm saying.

I'll continue to work on it, my friend. I am somewhat slow about some things but I hope you don't mind.

 

[Sparkey]

One of the reasons that I am not (yet) grasping is that not all of us need to grasp. Some can wait upon the Lord and not even have to reach out. Another part, or another reason that I am not yet fully understanding what you intend to say is that you didn't say it all that well. The words "meaningless" and "gibberish" have been used by you to create the phrase "meaningless gibberish" because you added them together. Taken together we have a phrase with an altered meaning. We are no longer just talking about stuff that is meaningless (which is close to what happens when I ramble too much) just as we are no longer talking about stuff that could be called gibberish, or could also in other places, be described as if barbarians were speaking.

Combined, the phrase "meaningless gibberish" isn't an example of meaningless, nor is it an apt example of gibberishness either, but if I continue to belabor it, it could become that.

 

[Sparkey]

So you see, it's not about the phrase being likened to a children's rhyme.

I never said it was. I even color-coded the part that was. Why try to make my instructions (or at least observations) into gibberish? Shame on you.

 

[Sparkey]

The Israelites knew the command to enter into rest, but they could not comprehend that message so as to obey it.

You say they could not? Seriously? We then are left with an evil God who demands such terrible demands. He just told them (it was simple) to enter into His rest and to stop working themselves.

Okay, now let's go back to that trembling mountain. The ones that had dead birds around it. The call was not just to MOSES but to all His children. They were afraid because they saw flesh dying as it approached holiness. But had they simply trusted and entered into His Presence while remaining in rest? Would we have seen a slaughter because they overcome their fears and approached as He beckoned? No. God is not evil.

 

[jocor]

But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter. Romans 7:6

Those who were under the law [Jews] are now delivered from the law, in Christ Jesus.
JLB

My statement needs to be understood in the context that Jesus Martyr made his comment. When he said "delivered from the Law of Moses," he meant that the entire Law of Moses is abolished. My comment was made to say we are not delivered from the Law of Moses by abolishing all the laws of Moses. The context of Romans 7:6 is dealing with being delivered from the hold (death penalty) that the Law had on us because Yeshua paid the death penalty and we died and were buried with him through our baptism unto death. Now that we are figuratively resurrected with him, we can easily obey the Law through the indwelling Spirit.

 

[jocor]

Laws contained in ordinances, were abolished [Ephesians 2:15]... such as put to death the Sabbath breaker, or sacrifice animals, food laws, clothing laws, feast days... which were all "ordinances" that were added until the Seed, our Messiah should come.

Moral laws, which were the laws of God's kingdom, such as do not lie, or steal, or murder, or worship other gods... are eternal.

You included the 4th commandment of the Ten as an "ordinance," but included several others of the Ten as "Moral laws". On what grounds do you demote the Sabbath command to something less than the other nine and say it is not one of the moral laws. I submit to you that anyone who causes another person to work on the holy Sabbath Day broke a moral law. All Ten Commandments will that were on those stone tablets, later carried in the Ark of the Testimony and then written on the hearts of believers will be among the laws that govern YHWH's Kingdom during the Millennium.

The very thing that divided the Jew from the Gentile were these ordinances.

13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation,
15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace,
16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity. Ephesians 2:13-16

These ordinances were not a part of the Abrahamic Covenant, to which the law was added, because Abraham himself was a Gentile.
JLB

Ephesians 2:13-16 is referring to man-made ordinances (dogma), not YHWH's ordinances (dikaioma). It was man-made Jewish laws that caused the hatred/enmity between Jew and Gentile, especially the wall they had built separating the court of the Jews from the court of the Gentiles which no Gentile could cross or else they would be put to death. YHWH never commanded such a wall to be built. It was the Jews hatred of Gentiles that led to its building and that led to the Gentiles hatred of Jews. The Gentiles loved YHWH's laws because they prevented Jews from wronging Gentiles and Jews loved His laws because they prevented Gentiles from wronging Jews.

 

[Sparkey]

Now that we are figuratively resurrected with him, we can easily obey the Law through the indwelling Spirit.

I used to get angry (rage?) -- but I'd go out looking for a reason to fight. Yeah, I was a teenage bully and punk. But today? It's not that difficult to follow the Sermon on the Mount teachings. I am delivered. He did that in me (as well as in countless others). So the commandment "Thou shalt not kill," even with Jesus' teachings about God's heart (Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself) being added is still fulfilled and will continue to be fulfilled in our new hearts with little or no effort on our parts. They are NOT hearts of stone and the commandments that were written on tablets of stone are not found in my heart, except that yes, I know they too were from God.

He said, "All ye who are heavy laden -- come unto me and I will give you rest."

He is the one that said, "My burden is light. It's easy." (paraphrase)
I beg to differ. His burden, the things that Jesus bore, the weight of all the sin of all mankind? It's not light. It's impossible, and yet? He carried it for us. Now(!) our portion of His burden is indeed light. When will we actually enter into His Rest? He is the King of Peace and He said, "My peace, I leave (give) to you... not as the world gives, do I give to you," (paraphrase).

We are to enter His Rest. It is a Hebrews 4:9 through 16 kind of rest. There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works.

 

[jocor]

I used to get angry (rage?) -- but I'd go out looking for a reason to fight. Yeah, I was a teenage bully and punk. But today? It's not that difficult to follow the Sermon on the Mount teachings. I am delivered. He did that in me (as well as in countless others). So the commandment "Thou shalt not kill," even with Jesus' teachings about God's heart (Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself) being added is still fulfilled and will continue to be fulfilled in our new hearts with little or no effort on our parts. They are NOT hearts of stone and the commandments that were written on tablets of stone are not found in my heart, except that yes, I know they too were from God.

He said, "All ye who are heavy laden -- come unto me and I will give you rest."

He is the one that said, "My burden is light. It's easy." (paraphrase)
I beg to differ. His burden, the things that Jesus bore, the weight of all the sin of all mankind? It's not light. It's impossible, and yet? He carried it for us. Now(!) our portion of His burden is indeed light. When will we actually enter into His Rest? He is the King of Peace and He said, "My peace, I leave (give) to you... not as the world gives, do I give to you," (paraphrase).

We are to enter His Rest. It is a Hebrews 4:9 through 16 kind of rest. There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works.

I can agree with everything here although, there are many Christians who struggle with certain things like alcohol, pornography, gluttony, anger, impatience, etc. For them it takes a great amount of effort to overcome.

I have entered his rest, but thankfully that does not abolish the physical blessing of the Sabbath rest that my body and mind surely need. It is one of the Ten Commandments written on my heart.

 

[Sparkey]

jocor Is there anybody here trying to tell you that Saturday Worship is somehow wrong? I hope not(!) and if that was said in my hearing and I didn't come to your aid? Please, I pray you, forgive me.

But if all we are talking about is the stupid misunderstanding that happened a century or so after Jesus gave His Revelation to John (after He ascended) while John was on the isle of Patmos (after the ascension)? Then, that too will resolve.

 

[Sparkey]

I was just now talking to a fellow Christian in a private conversation. We were not talking about this, it was more about the ongoing and unresolved leaven debate (that's happening in other threads) and I asked if anybody was here for 'The Great Pork Wars'. Now, that was unbelievable. There were Christians who were in-fighting with other Christians (no surprise there) -- but one group wanted to vaunt their baby-understanding about works and said that the other group was sinning, now get this, because they abstained from eating pork.

Yeah. And I am prone to flights of fancy and have a wild (some say 'delightful') imagination so there I was, pretending that I was some old Jewish observer and my comment was, "You stand there with swines flesh still clinging to your un-brushed teeth and say that I am sinning just because I won't chew on a pork chop with you?!?"

But that was the case. The sheet with all the animals from Peter's vision dropped more than three times in those conversations but nothing was resolved. The message from the Holy Spirit was to Jews who wanted to insist that Gentiles could not be made to be clean. Nothing all that complex. But we are dense sometimes.

It's similar to our discussion here in this thread, in a way. It's okay (and it is NOT sin) to worship on Saturday. Don't let anybody dare say different in my hearing because we are not being given any messages of exclusion here. The Holy Spirit continuously opens up more and more doors. You've heard that Jesus said, "I have another flock," and may understand that he meant Gentiles? Well, that' true enough. I'm saying that the message of the Gospel will go out to all the ends of the earth. Heathen too!

"Only ask, and I will give you the nations as your inheritance, the whole earth as your possession. " (Psalm 2:8 from some uncopyrighted version)​

That was a message (a promise) from Father to Son. Jesus heard it. That man knew it. We are just now being allowed to see it in action. It is a message of inclusion. We are to be careful because we are HIS BARN and we should know that He is not willing that any perish, but all that are His will be saved. Judgment comes to the house of God first, and for reason! Who would bring in precious grain to a threshing floor that is the resting place of rats?!?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You say they could not? Seriously?

Correct.
They could not comprehend the message as to obey it because they would not.

When people reject the word of the Lord it eventually becomes meaningless to them. God does this on purpose so that "they may go and stumble backward, be broken, snared and taken captive" (Isaiah 28:13 NASB).

He shuts their hearing off so as to "Render the hearts of this people insensitive, Their ears dull, And their eyes dim, Otherwise they might see with their eyes, Hear with their ears, Understand with their hearts, And return and be healed."" (Isaiah 6:10 NASB).

Paul speaks of this same thing here:

"They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness." (2 Thessalonians 2:10-12 NIV)

 

[ezrider]

Correct.
They could not comprehend the message as to obey it because they would not.

When people reject the word of the Lord it eventually becomes meaningless to them. God does this on purpose so that "they may go and stumble backward, be broken, snared and taken captive" (Isaiah 28:13 NASB).

He shuts their hearing off so as to "Render the hearts of this people insensitive, Their ears dull, And their eyes dim, Otherwise they might see with their eyes, Hear with their ears, Understand with their hearts, And return and be healed."" (Isaiah 6:10 NASB).

Paul speaks of this same thing here:

"They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness." (2 Thessalonians 2:10-12 NIV)

Because they have not believed the truth. But what us it that condemns them?