Sabbath Day business

[Jethro Bodine]

Turns out that the kids were hungry and they had asked about lunch but the adults that had planned the deal didn't have the money (it's a poor church - but lovely!) and so they didn't have anything for the kids. So what do them little angles do? They say, "I know! Let's pray ;)

What can the adults do in the face of faith like that. They let the kids gather together and circle to join hands in the NAME.

I didn't get a text message. Nobody called me on the phone. What really happened was years and years ago, the Holy Spirit dropped something into me. A mini-revelation, if you will. I knew the meaning of bread.

"14 and you will be blessed, since they do not have the means to repay you; for you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous." (Luke 14:14 NASB)

What a great story. Every Christian should know that God will use them like this if they will step out in the joy and confidence of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Sparkey]

Our time of preparation is upon us. (( It's an Esther thing ))

 

[jocor]

ORLY?

You don't see a definition. I am surprised (not). How come you deny seeing a definition there? If I said (in any other context) "This IS that," would you still object? For instance, if I said, 'THIS' == jocor and 'THAT' == 'Nice guy', would you miss the fact that I just defined you to be a nice guy? I'm betting not. If I was talking about something that had a secret meaning and later said, "This is that which [I was talking about earlier]," would you still be able to fail to connect the dots?"

Have you wondered why you are blinded like that? It's clearly a definition. No question. The only question that remains is how you are not able to see that simple fact.

PS - CONGRATS on your 1,000th POST here at ChristianForums.NET !!​

Isa 28:12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.
​

OK, After your rude post I see your point. What is "this"? If "rest" is the definition, then "this" is what is being defined. I believe "this" refers to obedience to correct knowledge and doctrine as derived from the word of YHWH. The statement would then read, "..., Obedience to correct knowledge and doctrine as derived from the Word of YHWH is the rest ... " How does that pertain to the 7th day rest? Are you implying that this somehow negates the 7th day rest?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Paul quoted that Scripture directly so we get his insights provided directly. Jethro, can you speak more about the tie-in to 1 Cor 14:21 and context there?

We can't hear and, therefore, obey and benefit from a message of rest and repose that we can not understand. For the Israelites it was the message of knowing and obeying all of their covenant requirements, including the Sabbath requirement. They could not 'hear' that message because of the corrupt leadership of Israel (and, of course, their own unbelieving hearts). Paul uses this truth from scripture to teach us that it is better to speak 5 understandable words of instruction in the church than 10,000 words in a tongue that no one can understand and say 'amen' to (1 Corinthians 14:16-19 NASB).

So whatever the commanded rest and repose is for the New Covenant saint, the knowledge of that rest and repose has to come through understandable words of instruction so we can understand, turn to God in repentance, and be healed. Those who reject that word of instruction will one day lose the ability to 'hear' it--"So the word of the LORD to them will be, "Order on order, order on order, Line on line, line on line, A little here, a little there, (meaningless gibberish)" That they may go and stumble backward, be broken, snared and taken captive." (Isaiah 28:13 NASB parenthesis mine).

For so many the word of God's rest and repose has become meaningless words because of 1) a corrupt leadership that teaches it as meaningless, and 2) the unbelieving hearts of the people who are listening to them.

 

[Sparkey]

Jethro. The words you quoted in blue; did you know they were like a nursery rhyme in Hebrew? You parenthetically said "(meaningless gibberish)" right at the end of the baby-talk sounding stuff.

But the baby-talk sounding stuff (in Eng, 'order on order, order on order, line on line, line on line, a little here, a little there') <--- that stuff isn't baby-talk gibberish at all. It just sounds like a nursery rhyme. It is as if I was saying, "What, Jethro? Read Dr. Seuss much?"

You would not have to look further than your last "Cat in the hat was fat and that was that," statement to know what I meant. Well -- they know nursery rhyme too when they hear it, it is so obvious that even if you were to record each Hebrew word distinctly and then play them (in correct order) you too would hear it, with a totally untrained ear. You could probably 'hear it' with your eyes if you were reading it in a Hebrew Interlinear. If anything, Hebrew is much more sound reliant than any modern English. The sounds and tonal variations are HUGE.

Point is, you'd know what I was talking about immediately but the uninitiated (us dumb Americans) would not get it. Have you seen that? It's a nursery rhyme. Somebody was mocking unabashedly, that's clear.

 

[Sparkey]

OK, After your rude post I see your point.

Huh? What was that? You want to start calling names, I see...
Hmmmm.... Oh, golly gee, what will become of me?

Jethro Bodine , see what I did there? It was an example of a overt mocking of a very unabashed sort, right? And it was a nursery rhyme sounding thing too. I was hoping that a quick opportunity would come... and here we have it. It carried more weight and sentiment with the rhyme than it did without. A perfect example, n'cest pas?

Okay, jocor Where were we? Oh, yeah. You started name calling. You called me rude. You did, didn't you? Yep! You did, I just checked.

your rude post

No, wait. Darn it! You called my post rude, not me. Okay, never-mind.... No worries. I'm patient. And you will never have to worry about me putting you on ignore either because that will not happen. See? No worries. I'm serious.

But what were you trying to say in response to my rude post? Huh? Were you asking me if I was implying something? Oh, yeah. I see that you were. Okay. No, I was not implying nuthing. Why do you ask?

 

[jocor]

Huh? What was that? You want to start calling names, I see...
Hmmmm.... Oh, golly gee, what will become of me?

Jethro Bodine , see what I did there? It was an example of a overt mocking of a very unabashed sort, right? And it was a nursery rhyme sounding thing too. I was hoping that a quick opportunity would come... and here we have it. It carried more weight and sentiment with the rhyme than it did without. A perfect example, n'cest pas?

Okay, jocor Where were we? Oh, yeah. You started name calling. You called me rude. You did, didn't you? Yep! You did, I just checked.No, wait. Darn it! You called my post rude, not me. Okay, never-mind.... No worries. I'm patient. And you will never have to worry about me putting you on ignore either because that will not happen. See? No worries. I'm serious.

But what were you trying to say in response to my rude post? Huh? Were you asking me if I was implying something? Oh, yeah. I see that you were. Okay. No, I was not implying nuthing. Why do you ask?

This post does not merit a reply except to say it doesn't merit a reply.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

But the baby-talk sounding stuff (in Eng, 'order on order, order on order, line on line, line on line, a little here, a little there') <--- that stuff isn't baby-talk gibberish at all. It just sounds like a nursery rhyme. It is as if I was saying, "What, Jethro? Read Dr. Seuss much?"

But how can it be like a stammering, foreign language to them that they can not comprehend if it is not also gibberish? We know it's gibberish because Paul says speaking tongues without interpretation is like what Isaiah is talking about--meaningless gibberish--because it can not be comprehended by the listener. The way Paul uses the passage to illustrate the uselessness of tongues shows us that what Isaiah is talking about has to be meaningless to the listener, like tongues is meaningless. That's how Paul is interpreting the Isaiah passage--meaningless gibberish that can not be understood and, therefore, obeyed. That's what happened to the message of God's rest and repose. It became meaningless gibberish to the people of Isreal. Like a drunkard, or a child speaking that message.

 

[Jesus Martyr]

Jethro. The words you quoted in blue; did you know they were like a nursery rhyme in Hebrew? You parenthetically said "(meaningless gibberish)" right at the end of the baby-talk sounding stuff.

But the baby-talk sounding stuff (in Eng, 'order on order, order on order, line on line, line on line, a little here, a little there') <--- that stuff isn't baby-talk gibberish at all. It just sounds like a nursery rhyme. It is as if I was saying, "What, Jethro? Read Dr. Seuss much?"

You would not have to look further than your last "Cat in the hat was fat and that was that," statement to know what I meant. Well -- they know nursery rhyme too when they hear it, it is so obvious that even if you were to record each Hebrew word distinctly and then play them (in correct order) you too would hear it, with a totally untrained ear. You could probably 'hear it' with your eyes if you were reading it in a Hebrew Interlinear. If anything, Hebrew is much more sound reliant than any modern English. The sounds and tonal variations are HUGE.

Point is, you'd know what I was talking about immediately but the uninitiated (us dumb Americans) would not get it. Have you seen that? It's a nursery rhyme. Somebody was mocking unabashedly, that's clear.

You didn't understand Jethro's post my friend.

The simple point of this entire topic, is that even though the Holy Spirit opened up the Gospel to everyone in every language, yet they would still not understand the simplicity of it... because they are deaf to the GOSPEL.

So even the simple words, or as you say "Dr Suess" rhymes, even those are incomprehensible to them. To them it is as gibberish Jethro said. "Stammering Lips" as the Scriptures said, as was shown earlier.

None of it is gibberish to us. [edited , drop the snarks Reba ] .. Jesus is King of Israel! haha
Simple for a child to understand, but impossible for one who's ears are deaf, who doesn't see Jesus as the ruling reigning King of Israel, OUR KING! edited

 

[Jesus Martyr]

Isa 28:12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.
​

OK, After your rude post I see your point. What is "this"? If "rest" is the definition, then "this" is what is being defined. I believe "this" refers to obedience to correct knowledge and doctrine as derived from the word of YHWH. The statement would then read, "..., Obedience to correct knowledge and doctrine as derived from the Word of YHWH is the rest ... " How does that pertain to the 7th day rest? Are you implying that this somehow negates the 7th day rest?

The seventh day rest was a "shadow". A "type". That has been covered thoroughly on this thread. Old wine skin stuff. Nothing to attempt shoving in to the New Wine skins of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
We are in the Eternal Rest in Christ in the Land. That's all been proven even in this thread. Edited snarky reba All that old shadow/type law stuff simply shows one is not yet delivered from the Law of Moses, which Law has been done away and abolished, as has already been proven.
Carry on

 

[Sparkey]

Guys, the word "gibberish" is not offensive to me. That's just the way it sounds when somebody is speaking in tongues. We are told that the Spirit provides the meaning. So people who speak in tongues are speaking in a language that is not understood.

But that one passage, the one that sounded like mockery? It was mockery.
Let me take a second and bring the nursery sounding rhyme back.

View attachment 7174
here's the link: http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/isa28.pdf

Focus your attention on the look of the Hebrew for the part I'm saying looks like (and sounds like) nursery rhyme. Guys, I'm not getting input for this mini-revelation from Mr. Google, okay? Let's just call that a happy accident.

tzu l·tzu (order to order)
tzu l·tzu (order to order)

qu l·qu (principle to principle)
qu l·qu (principle to principle)

zoir shm (bit there)
zoir shm (bit there)

And it's not just there that this is done.

 

[Sparkey]

I went to BlueLetterBible (not the most sophisticated tool but it gets the job done remarkably well) and took a look from there. They have a phonetics tool and we can actually hear the Hebrew.
View attachment 7175
View attachment 7176

You really don't need to listen to it, but you may. It sounds like it looks:
tsav tsav ..... (precept to precept)
tsav tsav ..... (precept to precept)

qav qav ...... (line to line)
qav qav ...... (line to line)

ze èyr ze èyr ...... (here-a-bit here-a-bit)
ze èyr ze èyr ...... (here-a-bit here-a-bit)

This isn't such a difficult concept. It takes no effort to keep up with me, I'm slow like that.

 

[jasonc]

Guys, the word "gibberish" is not offensive to me. That's just the way it sounds when somebody is speaking in tongues. We are told that the Spirit provides the meaning. So people who speak in tongues are speaking in a language that is not understood.

But that one passage, the one that sounded like mockery? It was mockery.
Let me take a second and bring the nursery sounding rhyme back.

View attachment 7174
here's the link: http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/isa28.pdf

Focus your attention on the look of the Hebrew for the part I'm saying looks like (and sounds like) nursery rhyme. Guys, I'm not getting input for this mini-revelation from Mr. Google, okay? Let's just call that a happy accident.

tzu l·tzu (order to order)
tzu l·tzu (order to order)

qu l·qu (principle to principle)
qu l·qu (principle to principle)

zoir shm (bit there)
zoir shm (bit there)

And it's not just there that this is done.

Hebrew poetry, not by phonetics. the books of proverbs, job, song of Solomon , psalms have this meter like this. this isn't just a Hebrew thing but a cannanite thing.

 

[Sparkey]

Okay, I found an authoritative collaborative source. The Complete Jewish Bible.
Here's what it says:

9 Can no one be taught anything?
Can no one understand the message?
Must one teach barely weaned toddlers,
babies just taken from the breast,
10 so that [one has to use nursery rhymes]? —
Tzav la-tzav, tzav la-tzav,
kav la-kav, kav la-kav
z‘eir sham, z‘eir sham
[Precept by precept, precept by precept,
line by line, line by line,
a little here, a little there].
11 So with stammering lips, in a foreign accent,
[Adonai] will speak to this people.
12 He once told this people, “It’s time to rest,
the exhausted can rest, now you can relax”—
but they wouldn’t listen.
13 So now the word of Adonai for them comes
“precept by precept, precept by precept,
line by line, line by line,
a little here, a little there,”
so that when they walk, they stumble backward,
and are broken, trapped and captured!
14 So listen to the word of Adonai, you scoffers,
composing taunts for this people in Yerushalayim:

(( source http://www.studylight.org/bible/cjb/isaiah/28.html ))

 

[Sparkey]

Those who know me know that I like intense but here we are in the LOUNGE and this is a Classik question /doh!
We're talking about a hot issue, and there is lots of room for casual... that's the purpose of this forum... so if you want to change the subject? That's no problem, really -- the original question had to do with selling stuff on the Sabbath Day, right? That's a big topic. Lots of room for little subjects (like me).

I love to find and follow wandering trails. When I'm out on the motorcycle, its called "The Zen of Motorcycling," or "Following where the front tire leads me," and to me? It's fun to see where the road goes. We don't have to talk about nursery rhymes any more. That's probably too much for some to hear also, right?

Then, and almost suddenly, in his best Arnold imitation, the bird squawks, "I'll be back..."

 

[jocor]

The seventh day rest was a "shadow". A "type". That has been covered thoroughly on this thread. Old wine skin stuff. Nothing to attempt shoving in to the New Wine skins of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
We are in the Eternal Rest in Christ in the Land. That's all been proven even in this thread. Edited snarky reba All that old shadow/type law stuff simply shows one is not yet delivered from the Law of Moses, which Law has been done away and abolished, as has already been proven.
Carry on

Go ask any Christian construction worker if he gets physically exhausted after working six days in a row. His answer will be yes. Why? Because the rest we have in Yeshua is a spiritual rest, NOT a physical rest. The 7th day rest “IS” a shadow/type, not “was” a shadow/type. It will be fulfilled when the seventh 1,000 year period of earth’s history ends. In other words, when the millennium ends, the 7th day rest will be fulfilled. It is because we have spiritual rest in Yeshua that we will be permitted to partake of the millennial rest after 6,000 years of laboring on this earth. In the meantime, we should continue to keep the 7th day holy as Yahweh commanded.

No one gets “delivered” from the Law of Moses (Law of YHWH). We get “delivered” from sin (the breaking of the Law of Moses) and from the death penalty of sin. Anyone who receives Yahweh’s grace and mercy through Yeshua’s finished work cannot continue to break the very Laws of YHWH that Yeshua died for to save that person. Yeshua died so your theft, adultery, idolatry, coveting, Sabbath breaking, lying, etc., could be forgiven. Having paid the ultimate price for us, can we continue in those sins we were delivered from? No. We cannot continue stealing, coveting, lying, committing adultery, idolatry, etc. To do so is to trample on Yahweh’s grace and mercy.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Okay, I found an authoritative collaborative source. The Complete Jewish Bible.
Here's what it says:

9 Can no one be taught anything?
Can no one understand the message?
Must one teach barely weaned toddlers,
babies just taken from the breast,
10 so that [one has to use nursery rhymes]? —
Tzav la-tzav, tzav la-tzav,
kav la-kav, kav la-kav
z‘eir sham, z‘eir sham
[Precept by precept, precept by precept,
line by line, line by line,
a little here, a little there].
11 So with stammering lips, in a foreign accent,
[Adonai] will speak to this people.
12 He once told this people, “It’s time to rest,
the exhausted can rest, now you can relax”—
but they wouldn’t listen.
13 So now the word of Adonai for them comes
“precept by precept, precept by precept,
line by line, line by line,
a little here, a little there,”
so that when they walk, they stumble backward,
and are broken, trapped and captured!
14 So listen to the word of Adonai, you scoffers,
composing taunts for this people in Yerushalayim:

(( source http://www.studylight.org/bible/cjb/isaiah/28.html ))

Okay, one last thing:

I don't think anyone's arguing the nursery rhyme aspect. It's the point that what is being spoken to them is foreign and not understandable to them. We know that's the case by how Paul uses the passage to show how you have to understand the words being spoken in order to know what the words are saying. That's where the element of meaningless gibberish comes in.

 

[JLB]

Thank you for asking Yeshua. Having come out of a line of Jews, this topic is especially close to me, now that I understand it.

If you have entered in to the land of rest in full belief and full faith, then you are in the Rest of the Lord
While here, I do righteousness

(Mat 12:12) ...--so that it is lawful on the sabbaths to do good.'

Here's just a few places where we can comprehend what the O.T. shadow type of the seventh day Sabbath pointed forward to mean in it's glory that we now enjoy always;

(Mar 2:24) And the Pharisees said unto him, Behold, why do they on the sabbath day that which is not lawful?
(Mar 2:25) And he said unto them, Did ye never read what David did, when he had need, and was an hungred, he, and they that were with him?
(Mar 2:26) How he entered into the house of God when Abiathar was high priest, and did eat the shewbread, which it is not lawful to eat save for the priests, and gave also to them that were with him?
(Mar 2:27) And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:
(Mar 2:28) so that the Son of man is lord even of the Sabbath.

We aren't to be as those who "didn't believe";

(Heb 3:7) Wherefore, even as the Holy Ghost saith, Today if ye shall hear his voice,
(Heb 3:8) Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, Like as in the day of the temptation in the wilderness,
(Heb 3:9) Wherewith your fathers tempted me by proving me, And saw my works forty years.
(Heb 3:10) Wherefore I was displeased with this generation, And said, They do alway err in their heart: But they did not know my ways;
(Heb 3:11) As I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.
(Heb 3:12) Take heed, brethren, lest haply there shall be in any one of you an evil heart of unbelief, in falling away from the living God:
(Heb 3:13) but exhort one another day by day, so long as it is called Today; lest any one of you be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin:

The writer to the Hebrews makes the crucial point, that this has to do with us Christians, and to look at that example of the non-believers;

(Heb 3:14) for we are become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence firm unto the end:

He pretty much says it again;

(Heb 3:16) For who, when they heard, did provoke? nay, did not all they that came out of Egypt by Moses?
(Heb 3:17) And with whom was he displeased forty years? was it not with them that sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?
(Heb 3:18) And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that were disobedient?
(Heb 3:19) And we see that they were not able to enter in because of unbelief.

He goes into even more in the next chapter, explaining how that we are in that Sabbabth Rest now, because the "type" back then wasn't the "fulfillment", but in light of that past "provocation", that Rest is ours now, as long as we don't "unbelieve";

(Heb 4:1) Let us fear therefore, lest haply, a promise being left of entering into his rest, any one of you should seem to have come short of it.

This is already a long post... I could go on and on about it, because I love the Sabbath Rest in the Holy Land in Christ. But there is enough there to whet one's whistle if one wanted to continue looking at how we now Remain in that Rest through Faith in Christ Jesus, Israel's Messiah, our Lord and our God!

(Heb 4:3) For we which have believed do enter into that rest; even as he hath said...
(Heb 4:9) there doth remain, then, a sabbath rest to the people of God,
(Heb 4:10) for he who did enter into his rest, he also rested from his works, as God from His own.

Though the seventh day "type" is abolished, this True Sabbath Remains and is Eternal and is so much more Glorious. It isn't just "one day" we keep holy now. It is Every Day! In fact, we are Eternally in "The Great and Notable Day of the Lord"! (Acts 2)

Fun huh

Thanks for sharing about the Sabbath from your perspective of having come out of a line of Jews.

To the Jew, resting from the works of the law is especially "good news", and has a deeper meaning than we as Gentiles can understand.

One thing I might add is; The fulfillment of the 7th day rest we be "fully" realized when Jesus returns and we enter the 1000 year [7th Day] rest that is promised to those who believe [obey].

True rest will come when we are no longer striving with the sinful desires of the flesh, because we have an immortal body that will never die, and shines like the sun... Luke 20:34-36

For then we will be clothed with our habitation that is from heaven.

1 For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven,
3 if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked.
4 For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life.
5 Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.
6 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord.
7 For we walk by faith, not by sight.
8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.
9 Therefore we make it our aim, whether present or absent, to be well pleasing to Him.
2 Corinthians 5:1-9

continue looking at how we now Remain in that Rest through Faith in Christ Jesus, Israel's Messiah, our Lord and our God!

I find it interesting, that those who teach that we are required to keep the law of Moses, in this New Covenant, also do not believe that Jesus is YHWH, the Lord God.



JLB

 

[JLB]

No one gets “delivered” from the Law of Moses

But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter. Romans 7:6

Those who were under the law [Jews] are now delivered from the law, in Christ Jesus.



JLB

 

[JLB]

Anyone who receives Yahweh’s grace and mercy through Yeshua’s finished work cannot continue to break the very Laws of YHWH that Yeshua died for to save that person.

Laws contained in ordinances, were abolished [Ephesians 2:15]... such as put to death the Sabbath breaker, or sacrifice animals, food laws, clothing laws, feast days... which were all "ordinances" that were added until the Seed, our Messiah should come.

Moral laws, which were the laws of God's kingdom, such as do not lie, or steal, or murder, or worship other gods... are eternal.


The very thing that divided the Jew from the Gentile were these ordinances.

13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation,
15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace,
16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity. Ephesians 2:13-16

These ordinances were not a part of the Abrahamic Covenant, to which the law was added, because Abraham himself was a Gentile.


JLB