Salvation and sanctification is now complete in Christ: Consecration then follows

[gordon777]

Each of us must choose to cleanse ourselves as we go through life and experience various things that can defile us.


Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
2 Corinthians 7:1

no we either follow or do not follow..( EVEN AS HE WALKED)...



John 10:4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.

Philippians 3:17 Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.

1 Thessalonians 1:6 And ye became followers of us, and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Ghost.

1 John 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

 

[gordon777]

That makes no sense.
How can holiness not be for ourselves ?

Holiness is not for ourself or it would be self seeking, and charity seeks not her own.

Next lesson for you is that Christ sanctified Himself ( made holy) to sanctify all through the truth.

Continuing on, Christ loved the church ( who He sanctified Himself for) and gave Himself for it, that He might SANCTIFY IT and CLEANSE IT with the washing of water BY THE WORD. ( to then be able to PRESENT IT TO HIMSELF A GLORIOUS CHURCH, no spot, wrinkle, but that it should then be HOLY and WITHOUT BLEMISH...



John 17:19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

Ephesians 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

 

[gordon777]

OK.
Why are you here ?

to tell what makes no sense. ( very little preaching of the cross here, and not a lot of understanding because of it)



1 Corinthians 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

1 Corinthians 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

1 Corinthians 1:23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[Tenchi]

repeating your opinion that the babes in Christ do not require the correction Paul has given them, dies not make the correction Paul has given them not be essential, to be in strife is to not be in love. its that simple.

??? See? Here's another example of what happens when you don't actually understand the posts to which you're attempting to respond. I've never written that the Corinthian Christians didn't "require correction" given to them by Paul. If you'd actually understood my posts, this would be obvious to you.

It is further obvious that strife and love don't typically go together. However, there must be strife - or, at least, debate - when love departs from truth. Jesus did say that he came "not to bring peace but a sword" (Matthew 10:34) which in context was a reference to the dividing nature of truth - in particular, the truth of who he was. We know Jesus contended often with the Pharisees, striving with them very aggressively, at times (see Matthew 23). Paul, too, in many of his letters criticized and contended with those who were going awry spiritually, loving them requiring that he do so. His first letter to believers at Corinth is a perfect example.

The Galatians were doing incorrectly, not walking in love, being in strife, envy, and apostle Paul cant be in the same strife and envy, or would not be in a position to correct them. ( they therefore needed to be more perfected as is the whole purpose)

All is simple, do you have confusion over it.

This response of yours here just further illustrates that you either can't, or won't, understand what I've written in my posts. Your remarks here talk past my comments completely and are, therefore, quite useless as a response to them.

I suspect that if there is any confusion, it's on your part, which you try to obscure by these off-point statements and your oblique projection of your comprehension issues onto me. If you need more explanation, say so. I can try to make my remarks simpler so you can get the gist of them.

So because you say the born again is different from the non born again, that God should now respect the person of men ?

That would make no sense to Gods just judgement, that all are judged by their deeds.

??? As I said, you really need someone to teach you Christian doctrine and biblical hermeneutics.

There is an enormous difference between the born-again person and one who is not. What do you think Paul was talking about when he wrote,

2 Corinthians 5:17
17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.

Ephesians 1:13-14
13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,
14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

Ephesians 2:4-7
4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us,
5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—
6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

Colossians 3:3-4
3 For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God.
4 When Christ who is your life appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.

The apostle John, too, wrote:

1 John 4:14-17 )
14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.
15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.
16 So we have come to know and to believe the love that God has for us. God is love, and whoever abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him.
17 By this is love perfected with us, so that we may have confidence for the day of judgment, because as he is so also are we in this world.

And so on.

God absolutely regards and treats His own children very differently than those who are not of His spiritual family and kingdom. Those who are not saved dwell constantly under God's wrath (John 3:36), they are as Paul described,

Ephesians 2:11-12
11 Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called “the uncircumcision” by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands—
12 remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.

That you don't know this is astonishing and explains why your theology and doctrine are so terribly tangled and in error.

Psalm 28:4 Give them according to their deeds, and according to the wickedness of their endeavours: give them after the work of their hands; render to them their desert.

This is the Psalmist speaking his mind to God, not God declaring His will to the Psalmist. It doesn't, then, offer any support to the idea that God treats His own children just as He does the unrepentant wicked.

Continued below.

 

[Tenchi]

Ecclesiastes 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

These verses, also, do nothing to confirm your idea that God treats the unsaved and the saved exactly alike. King Solomon wrote the words above as a man in his dotage who had sinned repeatedly and profoundly and was speaking as one who was "under the Sun," cynical and despairing. This is evident in Solomon's conclusion concerning the "whole duty of Man." He said it was to fear God and obey Him, but the First and Great Commandment is to LOVE God with all of one's being (Matthew 22:36-38; Deuteronomy 6:5).

In any case, Solomon was speaking from a pre-Calvary context, knowing nothing of the atoning work of Jesus on the cross and the "new life" one could possess in him. He knew nothing of those who had "passed from death unto life," delivered from the wrath and punishment of God by trusting in Jesus as their Savior and Lord (Romans 10:9-10).

John 5:24
24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

What Solomon wrote, then, in the verses above express his own temporal and ignorant perspective, not the reality of a born-again believer, delivered from the wrath to come through Jesus.

Ezekiel 33:20 Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. O ye house of Israel, I will judge you every one after his ways.

Was Ezekiel speaking to born-again Christians in this verse? No. His words were directed solely at the OT "house of Israel." God would judge every Israelite "after his ways." Just read the verse; it's plain as the nose on your face who this verse is addressing - and who it is not. The born-again believer under the New Covenant, formed through Jesus Christ's atoning work on the cross, will not come into judgment as the unsaved will.

Job 34:11 For the work of a man shall he render unto him, and cause every man to find according to his ways.

This verse, too, is issued to those outside of the New Covenant circumstance of the born-again child of God. It doesn't apply to those who, through faith in Jesus Christ are made "above reproach."

Colossians 1:22
22 yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach—

John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Romans 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

Both of these verses, in context, are speaking of Jews under the Old Covenant. They don't at all support your mistaken idea that God judges saved and unsaved alike.

Romans 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

And where do these verses say the saved will be judged just as the unsaved will be? Nowhere. We shall all - saved and unsaved - stand before God's Judgment Seat, yes, but we will not all stand there as the same sort of person. Some will stand before the Judgment Seat of God as His children, others as His enemies. His children will have their works tested for reward (1 Corinthians 3:11-15; Colossians 3:24; 2 John 1:8) and His enemies - the unsaved - will be judged guilty and cast out into hell (Matthew 7:21-23; 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9; Romans 2:5-9).

The verse above from Romans 14, then, doesn't support your view, @gordon7777.

2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

See above.

Two errors.

First that the born again are no different than anyone else, they are given the same high standards as those not born again, or it would be perverse to say the non born again are judged by the highest standards of God and the born again are allow3d to be/do wickedness....

The Christian's works are judged as worthy of reward, or not. But the Christian himself is not judged. Because he is in Christ (2 Corinthians 5:17), accepted by God as a result (Ephesians 1:6), the Christian has escaped the wrath of God, never again coming into judgment because of what Jesus has done for him on the cross, atoning for all of the man's sin. See above.

1 Corinthians 5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

Who does God judge, according to Paul, in this passage? "Those who are without" which is the person outside of the Church, the unsaved person. This passage, then, doesn't help your case any. Like your treatment of my posts, you aren't taking time and care to understand the proof-texts you're throwing out in support of your faulty ideas.

Continued below.

 

[Tenchi]

Second, that the born again are never seen as doing wrong, so your excuses are wrong on both accounts.

??? I've never said that the born-again are never seen as doing wrong. That's silly. Of course they are, over and over again in the New Testament. Read 1 Corinthians 3,5,6,11; Galatians 3-6; Titus, Romans 6-8:16, Ephesians 5:1-13, 1 John 1:9, 1 John 2:1, etc.

1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

1 John 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

And modern translations correctly translate John's words:

1 John 3:7-10
7 Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous.
8 Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil.
9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God.
10 By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.

As you can see, John did not mean to say that the born-again person is utterly sinlessly perfect. Such an idea flies in the face of other parts of Scripture that directly contradict such a statement. See above. What's more, John himself confounds such a reading of his own words:

1 John 1:8-10
8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

1 John 2:1
1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.

In both selections from John's own letter, he includes himself in his remarks - "we," "us," "our" - identifying with his readers as one of them and applying his words to himself, as well as to them. Was John writing as an unsaved sinner, then? He indicated that he was, like his readers, unable to say he was without sin and he stated also that "we" who may sin - both John and his readers - have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ. Only if you're going to assert that John was not saved can you continue to hold that he thought every truly born-again person was sinlessly perfect. His testimony about himself was that he was both a sinner and that, like others who sinned, he had an Advocate, too, in Jesus.

So, again, the Scripture you've offered in support of your erroneous views falls flat. And, again, this is because you have been handling it very poorly, not understanding it any better than you have my own posts in this thread.

anyone can know the purpose of Paul correcting the ones in error is so they stop the error, and that is to the standard of perfection,( no sin=belief i the rising of Jesus Christ) I hope you know to try to say it cant be achieved, is to make the purpose of Paul correcting the people for God, which satan exists to do, ( doesnt he? ) as voided, and it is also in denial that Christ came in the flesh to save us from that power of satan. ( unbelief in the love and rising of Christ again from the dead.

It appears that you have...trouble with the English language. This may contribute to your lack of understanding, I suspect, of what you read in both the Bible and my posts.

Yes, Paul wrote to Christians in the hopes of helping them to mature spiritually and become holier in their living. But this implies that, though born-again, they weren't living in maturity and perfect holiness. If the Christians to whom he wrote had been sinlessly-perfect, he would not have had to write to them the critical and instructive things he did about their sin and ignorance.

Perfect sinlessness can't be achieved this side of eternity, not in practical, day-to-day living, but this doesn't mean Christians can't be far holier than they often are. That Paul had to write to Christians and urge them to better living plainly indicates that they weren't sinlessly-perfect. Did Paul think this voided his purpose in writing to them? No. So, why do you?

And it doesn't deny that Christ took on human flesh and atoned for all of our sin on the cross, saving us from the power of darkness, to say that no one can be sinlessly-perfect in their practical living. In their spiritual position in Christ, they are perfect and have to be in order to be accepted by God (1 Corinthians 1:2, 30; 2 Corinthians 5:21). But in the Christian's daily, practical condition, their daily living, they will never manifest the perfection of their spiritual position in Jesus Christ. They can get far closer to it, though, than many of them believe they can, which is what Paul pointed out in many of his letters.

Continued below.

 

[Tenchi]

Born of God can do evil, and wont fail to enter eternal life, but those not born again have to first accept the tougher message they have to not defile the temple of God, but afterwards they enter a state of perpetual forgiveness, a get out of jail free card for ever.

That's a great message, who would not want to hear that!

All those who realize that they can't please God by dint of their own effort and willpower and who truly understand how much they must depend upon God to be who He commands them to be. Others, though, try to rely on fear and self-effort to propel themselves into holy living. This only produces failure, hypocrisy, and legalism - as your posts and those of others subscribing to the sinless perfection view illustrate.

Romans 5:6-11
6 For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly.
7 For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die—
8 but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God.
10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life.
11 More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.

This is indeed a very great message!

back on 1 Corinthians 3 for Tenchi. ( also for anyone who cares to see.)

Any time anyone questions the teaching of people ( on this forum for example) who is right and what is right ?

Well, nothing you've written inspires any confidence in me that you have the capacity to discern "who is right and what is right." Quite the opposite, actually.

Is that not answered by knowing nobody talking is right, because the appeal n scripture is always to follow Christ.

Just turning the page from 1 Cor 3, to 4, shows exactly that, even unto that PRESENT HOUR, the apostle was a real example, and so much so he can state to not follow the thousands and thousands of teachers ( forums etc) but to be followers of the apostle, because of what he is following. ( Christ.)

Paul also tells how he sent Timothy to the Corinthians, to REMEMBER ALL OF HIS WAYS IN CHRIST.

Eventually, in every thread in which you take part, you end up going on this way, in pious diatribe trying to approve yourself while consigning all your detractors/challengers to the rubbish bin. Do you honestly think readers of this thread find these diatribes of yours persuasive, helping them to trust you as a source of truth? I don't.

1 Corinthians 4:11 Even unto this present hour we both hunger, and thirst, and are naked, and are buffeted, and have no certain dwellingplace;
12 And labour, working with our own hands: being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we suffer it:
13 Being defamed, we intreat: we are made as the filth of the world, and are the offscouring of all things unto this day.
14 I write not these things to shame you, but as my beloved sons I warn you.
15 For though ye have ten thousand instructers in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.
16 Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me.

1 Corinthians 4:17 For this cause have I sent unto you Timotheus, who is my beloved son, and faithful in the Lord, who shall bring you into remembrance of my ways which be in Christ, as I teach every where in every church.
18 Now some are puffed up, as though I would not come to you.
19 But I will come to you shortly, if the Lord will, and will know, not the speech of them which are puffed up, but the power.
20 For the kingdom of God is not in word, but in power.
21 What will ye? shall I come unto you with a rod, or in love, and in the spirit of meekness?

"There is no man so blind as he who will not see."

How does Paul describe the fractious and partisan "babes in Christ" of chapter 3 in the passages you've cited here? He calls them "beloved sons" who were "begotten" by Paul through the Gospel. And in the prior chapter, Paul had called them "brethren," God's "field and buildings," "temples of God," and those who "belonged to Christ." It is these fellow, "puffed up," born-again children of God to whom Paul would come with a "rod" of spiritual discipline. Clearly, Paul did not think being a genuine Christian meant being sinlessly-perfect.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Holiness is not for ourself or it would be self seeking, and charity seeks not her own.

Next lesson for you is that Christ sanctified Himself ( made holy) to sanctify all through the truth.

Continuing on, Christ loved the church ( who He sanctified Himself for) and gave Himself for it, that He might SANCTIFY IT and CLEANSE IT with the washing of water BY THE WORD. ( to then be able to PRESENT IT TO HIMSELF A GLORIOUS CHURCH, no spot, wrinkle, but that it should then be HOLY and WITHOUT BLEMISH...



John 17:19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

Ephesians 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

Thank God for that !
So what are the sinners waiting for ?
They just want to keep on sinning, so the truth is just something to fight against or ignore.

 

[Hopeful 2]

to tell what makes no sense. ( very little preaching of the cross here, and not a lot of understanding because of it)



1 Corinthians 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

1 Corinthians 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

1 Corinthians 1:23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Agreed.
A lot of men preached the truth to me, before I finally turned from sin-darkness and followed Christ.
I try to have as much patience with the reluctant as my preachers had with me.

 

[gordon777]

God absolutely regards and treats His own children very differently than those who are not of His spiritual family and kingdom. Those who are not saved dwell constantly under God's wrath (John 3:36), they are as Paul described,

Ephesians 2:11-12
11 Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called “the uncircumcision” by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands—
12 remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.

God treats everyone the same, so should we...


Luke 6:31 And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.
32 For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them.
33 And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same.
34 And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again.
35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.
36 Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.

 

[gordon777]

It is further obvious that strife and love don't typically go together. However, there must be strife - or, at least, debate - when love departs from truth. Jesus did say that he came "not to bring peace but a sword" (Matthew 10:34) which in context was a reference to the dividing nature of truth - in particular, the truth of who he was. We know Jesus contended often with the Pharisees, striving with them very aggressively, at times (see Matthew 23). Paul, too, in many of his letters criticized and contended with those who were going awry spiritually, loving them requiring that he do so. His first letter to believers at Corinth is a perfect example.

Jesus sent a word, it is the sword of the Spirit:


Ephesians 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:



Paul have the option to which spirit comes to the Corinthians:


1 Corinthians 4:21 What will ye? shall I come unto you with a rod, or in love, and in the spirit of meekness?


Leaving debate as sin, summed up for the same Corinthians.. ( NOT ENCOURAGING THEM TO DEBATE THAT WOULD BE THE MOST EVIL THING POSSIBLE TO SUGGEST! )...



2 Corinthians 12:20 For I fear, lest, when I come, I shall not find you such as I would, and that I shall be found unto you such as ye would not: lest there be debates, envyings, wraths, strifes, backbitings, whisperings, swellings, tumults:

 

[gordon777]

??? See? Here's another example of what happens when you don't actually understand the posts to which you're attempting to respond. I've never written that the Corinthian Christians didn't "require correction" given to them by Paul. If you'd actually understood my posts, this would be obvious to you.

It is further obvious that strife and love don't typically go together. However, there must be strife - or, at least, debate - when love departs from truth. Jesus did say that he came "not to bring peace but a sword" (Matthew 10:34) which in context was a reference to the dividing nature of truth - in particular, the truth of who he was. We know Jesus contended often with the Pharisees, striving with them very aggressively, at times (see Matthew 23). Paul, too, in many of his letters criticized and contended with those who were going awry spiritually, loving them requiring that he do so. His first letter to believers at Corinth is a perfect example.



This response of yours here just further illustrates that you either can't, or won't, understand what I've written in my posts. Your remarks here talk past my comments completely and are, therefore, quite useless as a response to them.

I suspect that if there is any confusion, it's on your part, which you try to obscure by these off-point statements and your oblique projection of your comprehension issues onto me. If you need more explanation, say so. I can try to make my remarks simpler so you can get the gist of them.



??? As I said, you really need someone to teach you Christian doctrine and biblical hermeneutics.

There is an enormous difference between the born-again person and one who is not. What do you think Paul was talking about when he wrote,

2 Corinthians 5:17
17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.

Ephesians 1:13-14
13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,
14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

Ephesians 2:4-7
4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us,
5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—
6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

Colossians 3:3-4
3 For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God.
4 When Christ who is your life appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.

The apostle John, too, wrote:

1 John 4:14-17 )
14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.
15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.
16 So we have come to know and to believe the love that God has for us. God is love, and whoever abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him.
17 By this is love perfected with us, so that we may have confidence for the day of judgment, because as he is so also are we in this world.

If we still commit sin, how is all old passed away, how do we love others while hating them by sinning against them, your theology has too many gaps.



1 John 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

1 John 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

1 John 3:18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

Galatians 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

 

[gordon777]

This verse, too, is issued to those outside of the New Covenant circumstance of the born-again child of God. It doesn't apply to those who, through faith in Jesus Christ are made "above reproach."

Colossians 1:22
22 yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach—

Colossians 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

 

[gordon777]

And where do these verses say the saved will be judged just as the unsaved will be? Nowhere. We shall all - saved and unsaved - stand before God's Judgment Seat, yes, but we will not all stand there as the same sort of person. Some will stand before the Judgment Seat of God as His children, others as His enemies. His children will have their works tested for reward (1 Corinthians 3:11-15; Colossians 3:24; 2 John 1:8) and His enemies - the unsaved - will be judged guilty and cast out into hell (Matthew 7:21-23; 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9; Romans 2:5-9).

The verse above from Romans 14, then, doesn't support your view, @gordon7777.

The reward all seek for is glory and honour immortality and eternal life.

But unto those who do not obey the truth, it is indignation and wrath.

Vengeance is on them who do not know God, which is all those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ, their punishment is everlasting destruction, as opposed to those who believed the testimony of the gospel....


Romans 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

2 Thessalonians 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.



That is why Paul corrected the Corinthians for being non Spirit but carnal, so they would see they did wrong and would have a bad end:

Philippians 3:19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)


Now Paul corrects the Romans in the same way, if they judge their brother they are unaware they shall be judged, ( AT THE JUDGEMENT SEAT OF CHRIST...( Matthew 7:2For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.)

Paul ends the chapter confirming all of this, to not CONDEMN OURSELVES, ( BY DOUBTING) because what is not of faith is sin. ( and if we all sin we all do not believe.)...


Romans 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the JUDGEMENT SEAT OF CHRIST.
11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

Romans 14:22 Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.
23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

 

[gordon777]

The Christian's works are judged as worthy of reward, or not. But the Christian himself is not judged. Because he is in Christ (2 Corinthians 5:17), accepted by God as a result (Ephesians 1:6), the Christian has escaped the wrath of God, never again coming into judgment because of what Jesus has done for him on the cross, atoning for all of the man's sin. See above.

First for context and clarity, it is sensible to remember the counsel of the prophets( false ones) who say...


Jeremiah 23:16 Thus saith the Lord of hosts, Hearken not unto the words of the prophets that prophesy unto you: they make you vain: they speak a vision of their own heart, and not out of the mouth of the Lord.
17 They say still unto them that despise me, The Lord hath said, Ye shall have peace; and THEY SAY UNTO EVERY ONE THAT WALKETH AFTER THE IMAGINATION OF HIS OWN HEART, NO EVIL SHALL COME UPON YOU.

Now I don't have to remind all of the many false prophet/teachers among all. ( 2 Peter 2:1.)

But just supposing they littered forums, what would the right teacher try to do. ( testified in Ezekiel and continues the same seduction until NOW.)...


Jeremiah 23:21 I have not sent these prophets, yet they ran: I have not spoken to them, yet they prophesied.
22 But IF THEY HAD STOOD IN MY COUNSEL, and had caused my people to hear MY WORDS , then THEY SHOULD HAVE TURNED THEM FROM THEIR EVIL WAY, and FROM THE EVIL OF THEIR DOINGS.

Ezekiel 13:10 Because, even because THEY HAVE SEDUCED MY PEOPLE, saying, Peace; and there was no peace; and one built up a wall, and, lo, others daubed it with untempered morter:

2 Timothy 3:13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.



Now the false prophets promised peace, no evil, and we are told they do THIS VERY SAME NOW.

The false ones serve corruption ( servants of SIN) and teach heresy for men to be brought in bondage. (unbelief/no fear of God)

The end of the ones who ONCE ESCAPED the POLLUTIONS OF THE WORLD, ( doing evil, which the true ones turn them from, and the false ones say no evil shall come upon you.) is WORSE, as it was BETTER, they had never known the WAY OF RIGHTEOUSNESS, ( doing good, not evil, for all old ways to REMAIN PASSED AWAY/IF WE CONTINUE IN THE FAITH.) TURNING FROM the Holy commandment DELIVERED UNTO THEM. ( the Galatians ALSO desired to be AGAIN IN BONDAGE, to do what is not of faith=SIN.)



2 Peter 2:19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.

2 Peter 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

Galatians 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?




Accepted in the beloved/redemption, ( through His blood) WHEREIN HE HAS ABOUNDED TOWARD US IN ALL WISDOM AND PRUDENCE. ( TO KNOW THE LOVE OF CHRIST WHICH PASSES KNOWLEDGE, THAT WE MAY BE FILLED WITH ALL THE FULNESS OF GOD.)...


Ephesians 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;

Ephesians 3:19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

 

[gordon777]

Who does God judge, according to Paul, in this passage? "Those who are without" which is the person outside of the Church, the unsaved person. This passage, then, doesn't help your case any. Like your treatment of my posts, you aren't taking time and care to understand the proof-texts you're throwing out in support of your faulty ideas.

My case, my ideas, are that the Corinthians had to change their ways or die, ( of SRIFE/walking AS MEN.) and if they felt they had no reason to work out their salvation with fear and trembling, then they would not. ( not change, not live.)

The SAME reasoning is given to the Philippians, to stop being without the mind of Christ and to let the mind of Christ be in them, nothing done through strife or vain glory, but all to be done through lowliness of mind, to look on the things of others, ( no more debate) instead of on yourself. ( strife/contention/ perverse disputes of men.)


1 Corinthians 3:3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

Philippians 2:3 Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.
4 Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others.
5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:


Romans 14 shows every one at the same judgement seat of Christ, and all are to bow the knee to Him.

Because of that, all BELOVED are to OBEY, now much more by the exhortation of Paul, to WORK OUT THAT SALVATION WITH FEAR AND TREMBLING.


Philippians 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Romans 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and THOU STANDEST BY FAITH. Be NOT HIGHMINDED, but FEAR:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, TAKE HEED LEST HE ALSO NOT SPARE THEE.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but TOWARD THEE, GOODNESS, IF THOU CONTINUE IN HIS GOODNESS: otherwise THOU ALSO SHALT BE CUT OFF.

Colossians 1:22 In the BODY OF HIS FLESH THROUGH DEATH, to PRESENT YOU HOLY AND UNBLAMABLE AND UNREPROVABLE IN HIS SIGHT

Colossians 1:23 IF YE CONTINUE IN THE FAITH GROUNDED AND SETTLED, and BE NOT MOVED AWAY FROM THE HOPE OF THE GOSPEL which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

 

[gordon777]

Who does God judge, according to Paul, in this passage? "Those who are without" which is the person outside of the Church, the unsaved person. This passage, then, doesn't help your case any. Like your treatment of my posts, you aren't taking time and care to understand the proof-texts you're throwing out in support of your faulty ideas.

God judges both the believer and non believer, for the believers to put away wickedness, and for the wicked to see distinction what is good, is not fornication or any of the sins they believed they could do, believing they were as believers. ( fornicators of this world, go out of this world, we go out of this world too if we keep company with them.)...


1 Corinthians 5:10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.
11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

2 Corinthians 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.

Hebrews 7:26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;

 

[gordon777]

1 John 3:7-10
7 Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous.
8 Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the DEVIL HAS BEEN SINNING FRO THE BEGINNING. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil.
9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God.
10 By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.

Jesus Christ does righteousness only, love, no sin, ( from the beginning) the devil does sin only, no righteousness. ( from the beginning.

The Son of God appeared ( in the flesh) that He might DESTROY THE WORKS OF THE DEVIL. ( SINS FROM THE BEGINNING.)

The message we HEARD ( the sheep hear the good Shepherd of the sheep/HIs voice.) FROM THE BEGINNNG, that we should WALK IN LOVE.


1 John 3:11 For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.



We don't be as Cain who was of the wicked one. ( from the beginning) we love, not with evil works as Cain of the devil sinning from the beginning, we do the righteousness that is of Christ now, which speaks/does better things than of Abel.



1 John 3:12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.

Hebrews 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.


The modern traslation has to reveal what passing from death to life is, it is loving the brothers, or if we do not love them in sincerity, we abide in death.

Not doing righteousness ( practising righteousness) is not loving our brother, if we hate our brother ( do works of unrighteousness as Cain of the wicked one, and not works of righteousness like Abel of God.) we hate our brother, even as murderers as Cain. ( no eternal life abiding in those who do unrighteousness/who do not love their brother.)

Also we perceive the love of God ( love, the message we heard from the beginning) because He ( Christ) laid HIs life down for us, and we should lay our lives down for the brothers. ( sin is the opposite to laying your life down, it is denial of Christ laying HIs life down, not belief of it.)..


1 John 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

1 John 3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
16 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.

 

[gordon777]

As you can see, John did not mean to say that the born-again person is utterly sinlessly perfect. Such an idea flies in the face of other parts of Scripture that directly contradict such a statement. See above. What's more, John himself confounds such a reading of his own words:

1 John 1:8-10
8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

1 John 2:1
1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.

In both selections from John's own letter, he includes himself in his remarks - "we," "us," "our" - identifying with his readers as one of them and applying his words to himself, as well as to them. Was John writing as an unsaved sinner, then? He indicated that he was, like his readers, unable to say he was without sin and he stated also that "we" who may sin - both John and his readers - have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ. Only if you're going to assert that John was not saved can you continue to hold that he thought every truly born-again person was sinlessly perfect. His testimony about himself was that he was both a sinner and that, like others who sinned, he had an Advocate, too, in Jesus.

Scripture has sin as unbelief, and righteousness as belief.

Who said both can be done, maybe modern translations, but in practice, Christ is without sin ( He is faith/the love of God, and the devil is hatred, murder, no faith, no righteousness.


Does this sound familiar to anyone ? That only because of the words, we and our, this means the apostles of the Lord are included with sinners ? ( what happened to casting out from the church, the wicked person who does sins, and calls themselves a believer, if all are sinners?) This is all too familiar to label the Corinthians as born again, only for the sake of a word, a name, that they are called Christians, or babes in Christ, go to a church, are the building of God, a human body, and yet all in the world are these same, they all consider they are Christians, but many are called and few are chosen, is wisdom not justified of her children, and the unjust have no shame or sense of justice/the righteous jusgement of God, to render to every man according to his ways. ( the ways should be in Christ as we see in apostle Paul.)


The apostles show difference between them and the ones who have not heard, as they had true fellowship with the Father and with HIs Son Jesus Christ.


1 John 1:3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.



The apostles are different not only to unbelievers, they are the true example to the believers also.

Paul speaks to the Corinthians as unto children, but that does not mean born again, it means appealing to them to follow/believe correctly.

Just like John ( it has to be the very same) the fellowship is that believers cannot be yoked with unrighteousness. They are CLANSED FROM ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS.

Paul continues to the same Corinthians, that the temple of God. ( they who defile the temple of Gd are destroyed. 1 Corinthians 3:17.) has no agreement with idols, and they are the temple God walks in, and for this, THEY ARE TO COME OUT FROM AMONG THEM AND TO BE SEPERATE. ( from sinners/ as the High priest who BECAME US.) to not touch wat is unclean. ( CLEANSED FROM ALL UNRIGHTEOSNESS.) and He will receive us, ( then our fellowship truly is with the apostles as theirs was WITH THE FATHER AND WITH HIS SON JESUS CHRIST.) and be a Father unto jus, we shall be HIs sons and daughters.....


1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

2 Corinthians 6:13 Now for a recompence in the same, (I speak as unto my children,) be ye also enlarged.
14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?
16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.
18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

Hebrews 7:26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;



We have that advocate with the Father, we have to sin not. ( believe in Him/be separate from sinners, touch not the unclean thing, have true fellowship with the Father and Son, then He receives us to be a Father unto us.)

So to know the Father, to walk as the Son walked, ( not some idea that the apostles say us, our, and they are sinners) we are directed how, keeping His words, with the truth no lie, with love no hatred in what we do to others, because if we keep the word of God, the love of God is perfected in them, ( before the hatred of the devil was in them) and that is how they know they are in God, ( no longer in the devil)...



1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

1 John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

 

[gordon777]

All those who realize that they can't please God by dint of their own effort and willpower and who truly understand how much they must depend upon God to be who He commands them to be. Others, though, try to rely on fear and self-effort to propel themselves into holy living. This only produces failure, hypocrisy, and legalism - as your posts and those of others subscribing to the sinless perfection view illustrate.

Romans 5:6-11
6 For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly.
7 For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die—
8 but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God.
10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life.
11 More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.

This is indeed a very great message!

Without faith we cant please God, we need to diligently seek Him.


Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.


Enoch had the testimony that he pleased God. ( before his translation.)

But there is woe to those who have gone in the way of Cain. ( works evil not righteous as Abel's were.)

They are spots in charity, ( no love from the beginning as we heard, but hatred and murder as Cain of the wicked one from the beginning.) they feed themselves without FEAR, they are WITHOUT FRUIT, foaming out THEIR OWN SHAME, Enoch also prophesied of these, of the Lord coming to EXECUTE JUDGEMENT UPON ALL, to convince all the ungodly of all their UNGODLY DEEDS, which UNGODLY SINNERS HAVE COMMITED and spoken against Him, they are murmurers, complainers, speaking great swelling words of VANITY to have men's PERSONS IN ADMIRATION. ( God is not a RESPECTOR OF PERSONS, AND WILL RENDER TO EVERY MAN ACCORDING TO THEIR DEEDS. Romans 2:6. 2:11.)..



Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

Jude 1:11 Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.
12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;
13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.
14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
16 These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.