Salvation and sanctification is now complete in Christ: Consecration then follows

[gordon777]

This is indeed a very great message!

Yes, to love as He loved, is a great message, it is even greater than the one of not loving as Christ loved. ( the antichrist spirit denies and does not confess, that Christ has come in the flesh. The greater love of Christ is to lay HIs life down for HIs friends.)..


John 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye LOVE ONE ANOTHER, AS I HAVE LOVED YOU.
13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.

Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

1 John 3:16 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and WE OUGHT TO LAYDOWN OUR LIVES FOR THE BRETHREN.

 

[JLB]

no we either follow or do not follow..( EVEN AS HE WALKED)...



John 10:4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.

Philippians 3:17 Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.

1 Thessalonians 1:6 And ye became followers of us, and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Ghost.

1 John 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

So you believe we are to ignore what Paul instructed us to do?


But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay, some for honor and some for dishonor. Therefore if anyone cleanses himself from the latter, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified and useful for the Master, prepared for every good work. 2 Timothy 2:20-21

• if anyone cleanses himself from the latter, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified and useful for the Master, prepared for every good work.

JLB

 

[Tenchi]

God treats everyone the same, so should we...


Luke 6:31 And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.
32 For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them.
33 And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same.
34 And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again.
35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.
36 Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.

God extends to all His offer of salvation and reconciliation to Himself, yes, but those who are His own, who are His born-again children, He loves and deals with very differently than those who are not. I've already given you Scripture that makes this abundantly clear.

Jesus sent a word, it is the sword of the Spirit:


Ephesians 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:



Paul have the option to which spirit comes to the Corinthians:


1 Corinthians 4:21 What will ye? shall I come unto you with a rod, or in love, and in the spirit of meekness?


Leaving debate as sin, summed up for the same Corinthians.. ( NOT ENCOURAGING THEM TO DEBATE THAT WOULD BE THE MOST EVIL THING POSSIBLE TO SUGGEST! )...



2 Corinthians 12:20 For I fear, lest, when I come, I shall not find you such as I would, and that I shall be found unto you such as ye would not: lest there be debates, envyings, wraths, strifes, backbitings, whisperings, swellings, tumults:

Here, again, you've taken up a very confused and overly-simplistic understanding of God's word. The "sword of the Spirit" is not a spirit, or the Holy Spirit, but, as Paul says plain as day, is the word of God, the Bible. The Holy Spirit uses the "sword" of Scripture to penetrate and divide the thoughts and intents of a person's heart.

Is this what Paul is talking about in his letter to the Corinthian Christians which you quote above? No. Not at all. The "spirit of meekness" is Paul's own "spirit" or attitude, the manner in which he would interact with believers at Corinth. We know this because he speaks of coming to them with a "rod" instead, which he meant figuratively of an attitude of harsh discipline. What attitude (i.e. spirit) did the Corinthian believers want in Paul when they encountered him, he asked them.

So, in Ephesians 6:17, Paul is talking about Scripture that the Holy Spirit wields like a sword and in 1 Corinthians 4:21 Paul is talking about his manner or attitude when dealing with the "puffed up" Corinthian Christians. These two verse, then, don't connect in the way you've seemed to assert above that they do.

As for debate, @gordon7777, you engage in it near-endlessly on this forum. If it is such a great evil, you are among the most guilty of it on this website!

Does Paul forbid all debate of any kind? No. He disputed/debated with unbelieving Gentiles all throughout his missionary journeys recorded in Acts. Here's an example:

Acts 19:6-10
6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spoke with tongues, and prophesied.
7 And all the men were about twelve.
8 And he went into the synagogue, and spoke boldly for the space of three months, disputing and persuading the things concerning the kingdom of God.
9 But when some were hardened, and believed not, but spoke evil of that way before the multitude, he departed from them, and separated the disciples, disputing daily in the school of one Tyrannus.
10 And this continued for two years; so that all they who dwelt in Asia heard the word of the Lord Jesus, both Jews and Greeks.

How is one to persuade another of what is true if not by the back-and-forth of discussion, contending for the truth with those who've embraced a lie? This is, essentially, what one must do in evangelism. Paul clearly understood the necessity of disputation in reasoning to the truth. There is, of course, useless debate which seeks contention for its own sake, the stimulation of argument rather than the discovery and clarification of truth. This is the sort of debate that Paul forbids, I think, not the necessary negotiations of reasoned argument that are often required to uncover the truth.

2 Timothy 2:23-25
23 Have nothing to do with foolish, ignorant controversies; you know that they breed quarrels.
24 And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil,
25 correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth,

Continued below.

 

[Tenchi]

If we still commit sin, how is all old passed away, how do we love others while hating them by sinning against them, your theology has too many gaps.

No, my theology is fine, being carefully biblical, as it is. Your understanding of God's truth, though, has considerable "gaps" in it.

What is "passed away" is the rule of the "old Self" and bondage to the World, the Flesh and the devil (see Ephesians 2:1-3; Titus 3:3; Romans 6:1-11; Colossians 2:11-13) that is the natural state of those who are spiritually separated from God. This condition of bondage is gone - passed away - and instead the born-again person has new spiritual life and liberty in Christ.

Luke 4:18-19
18 “The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim liberty to the captives and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty those who are oppressed,
19 to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor.”

2 Corinthians 3:17
17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

Galatians 5:1
1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

And so on.

But there are still well-established habits of sinful thought and behavior that must be dissolved and replaced with new, godly ones, and the "old Self," though rendered powerless on the cross of Christ, still calls, urging the believer to come once again under its power and pursue fleshly things. There are also false teachings and teachers that may plague a born-again person's life, causing them to sin in various ways. Then, too, the devil also works to confuse and deceive, appearing as an angel of light, at times, bringing Christians into sin. Finally, the born-again person may simply be ignorant of the truth, perhaps very new to the faith and in need of sound teaching and in their ignorance and immaturity spiritually fall into sin.

For all of these reasons, then, it is simply not the case that a truly born-again person will be sinlessly-perfect. Though they have a new spiritual nature and are set free from bondage to Self and Sin, they must grow up into what this means, progressively coming to live in the truth of their spiritual inheritance in Jesus Christ. And so, we read in Scripture things like the following:

Ephesians 4:13-15
13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ,
14 so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes.
15 Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ,
1 Peter 2:2
2 Like newborn infants, long for the pure spiritual milk, that by it you may grow up into salvation—

2 Peter 3:18
18 but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory, both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.

Philippians 3:12-14
12 Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus.
13 Brethren, I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet; but one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead,
14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

Hebrews 5:13-14
13 For everyone who partakes only of milk is not accustomed to the word of righteousness, for he is an infant.
14 But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil.

It is very plain from these passages that there is a growth continuum along which every Christian must move, over time becoming more mature spiritually and thus better able to resist false teaching, the deceptions of the devil, the lure of the World and the impulses of their own flesh. As this growth develops, like a young child learning to walk, there is stumbling and falling, the necessary struggle in which strength develops, so that in due time there is the ability to walk with stability and ease. This is the normal spiritual growth process for every Christian, as the above passages clearly indicate.

A human baby is still a human though it cannot do as adult humans do. The baby's weakness and ignorance don't prove it's not a human, only that it is has much growth yet to experience. So, too, the weak and stumbling Christian. Their ignorance, weakness and falling into sin don't mean necessarily that they aren't truly born-again, only that much growth is yet required in them spiritually.

Now, there are those who think themselves Christian who are not. These are the ones confronted by Christ in Matthew 7:21-23 and cast out of his presence forever; these are the ones who "profess that they know God but in works deny Him, being abominable and disobedient and to every good work reprobate" (Titus 1:16); these are the ones the apostle John wrote of who don't just stumble into sin on occasion but who make a practice of sinning (1 John 3:7-10). There are many in the Church today that are of this sort, false converts who "fall away" overtly or covertly from the faith (Hebrews 6:4-8).

Continued below.

 

[Tenchi]

Colossians 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

What happens if a genuine believer gives up their confidence in the Gospel and their Savior? Does Jesus boot them out of God's kingdom? This isn't what Paul indicated here. Instead, in context, he was speaking of the benefit of being reconciled to God through Christ, which was that the one so reconciled would be "holy, blameless and above reproach," enabled by the Holy Spirit to live progressively, over time, a more and more holy life.

If a Christian ceases to be confident - grounded and settled - in "the hope of the Gospel," who is Jesus Christ, they cut themselves off from the fellowship - not relationship - with him that is necessary to living "holy, blameless and above reproach." Like the Prodigal Son off in a far country, always his father's son but cut off from fellowship with his father, Christians cut off from fellowship with their Heavenly Father by their doubt and sin, end up in a moral and spiritual "pigpen" eating slops. Not until they look up from the filth they're in and say, "I will go to my father," and then do so in humble repentance, as the Prodigal did, will fellowship be restored and all the good things that fellowship entails be enjoyed.

In any case, Paul did not mean in Colossians 1:23 that the believer's capacity to remain settled and confident in the Gospel is what keeps them saved. Not at all.

 

[gordon777]

Tenchi, you support a doctrine that says we cant stop commiting sins, if you may like to confess to us what sins it is you do, is it lies, is it strife, debate, pride, coveteousness, would you like to put your money where your mouth is, tell us all, so we see it is not just a dispute you have, but an actual problem you have, you can share with the forum, maybe people can advise you how to correct it.

 

[gordon777]

I just made a detailed thread about the doctrine of sin, it might help you to better understand Pauls necessary correction to the Corinthians.

 

[gordon777]

So you believe we are to ignore what Paul instructed us to do?


But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay, some for honor and some for dishonor. Therefore if anyone cleanses himself from the latter, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified and useful for the Master, prepared for every good work. 2 Timothy 2:20-21

• if anyone cleanses himself from the latter, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified and useful for the Master, prepared for every good work.

JLB

yes by doing, not talking, if you are a doer good for you, if not, then here again is how to do..



Matthew 8:19 And a certain scribe came, and said unto him, Master, I will follow thee whithersoever thou goest.
20 And Jesus saith unto him, The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head.
21 And another of his disciples said unto him, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father.
22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.

1 Corinthians 4:11 Even unto this present hour we both hunger, and thirst, and are naked, and are buffeted, and have no certain dwellingplace;
12 And labour, working with our own hands: being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we suffer it:
13 Being defamed, we intreat: we are made as the filth of the world, and are the offscouring of all things unto this day.
14 I write not these things to shame you, but as my beloved sons I warn you.
15 For though ye have ten thousand instructers in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.
16 Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me.

 

[Tenchi]

The reward all seek for is glory and honour immortality and eternal life.

But unto those who do not obey the truth, it is indignation and wrath.

As I already pointed out to you from the passage in which these statements are made, Paul is not speaking of born-again believers. Who is he speaking to and about? Well, he tells us very plainly in the chapter:

Romans 2:1
1 Therefore you have no excuse, everyone of you who passes judgment, for in that which you judge another, you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things.

Is this meant to refer to everybody, saved and unsaved? No. Paul has a very particular sort of person in mind in Romans 2: The hypocritical, law-keeping Jew operating under the OT Mosaic covenant.

Romans 2:17-21
17 But if you bear the name "Jew" and rely upon the Law and boast in God,
18 and know His will and approve the things that are essential, being instructed out of the Law,
19 and are confident that you yourself are a guide to the blind, a light to those who are in darkness,
20 a corrector of the foolish, a teacher of the immature, having in the Law the embodiment of knowledge and of the truth,
21 you, therefore, who teach another, do you not teach yourself? You who preach that one shall not steal, do you steal?

Here, Paul refers to the beginning of the chapter, but now being very particular about the judgmental hypocrite he had initially described. These legalistic hypocrites think as follows about the means of their salvation:

Romans 2:7
7 ...by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;

Is this what Paul says in other letters is how salvation (i.e. immortality/eternal life) is obtained? Absolutely not. Read Romans 10:9-10. Or:

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

2 Timothy 1:9
9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,

Titus 3:5
5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,

It is the hypocritical Jew operating under the Old Mosaic Covenant who thinks they can obtain glory, honor and immortality by way of their persevering in good works. I would point out that hypocrisy and salvation-by-works go together in Romans 2.

 

[Tenchi]

That is why Paul corrected the Corinthians for being non Spirit but carnal, so they would see they did wrong and would have a bad end:

Philippians 3:19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)

This is just more bad handling of Scripture.

Paul was speaking to born-again, in Christ, brethren in 1 Corinthians 3. But in Philippians 3:19, Paul is speaking of "enemies of the cross." You are trying to connect two very different sorts of people to each other as though they are the same. They're not, as I've already explained to you from Scripture in earlier posts in this thread.

 

[Tenchi]

First for context and clarity, it is sensible to remember the counsel of the prophets( false ones) who say...


Jeremiah 23:16 Thus saith the Lord of hosts, Hearken not unto the words of the prophets that prophesy unto you: they make you vain: they speak a vision of their own heart, and not out of the mouth of the Lord.
17 They say still unto them that despise me, The Lord hath said, Ye shall have peace; and THEY SAY UNTO EVERY ONE THAT WALKETH AFTER THE IMAGINATION OF HIS OWN HEART, NO EVIL SHALL COME UPON YOU.

??? I think this may apply to you more than to anyone else in this thread...

Now I don't have to remind all of the many false prophet/teachers among all. ( 2 Peter 2:1.)

But just supposing they littered forums, what would the right teacher try to do. ( testified in Ezekiel and continues the same seduction until NOW.)...


Jeremiah 23:21 I have not sent these prophets, yet they ran: I have not spoken to them, yet they prophesied.
22 But IF THEY HAD STOOD IN MY COUNSEL, and had caused my people to hear MY WORDS , then THEY SHOULD HAVE TURNED THEM FROM THEIR EVIL WAY, and FROM THE EVIL OF THEIR DOINGS.

Ezekiel 13:10 Because, even because THEY HAVE SEDUCED MY PEOPLE, saying, Peace; and there was no peace; and one built up a wall, and, lo, others daubed it with untempered morter:

2 Timothy 3:13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.



Now the false prophets promised peace, no evil, and we are told they do THIS VERY SAME NOW.

The false ones serve corruption ( servants of SIN) and teach heresy for men to be brought in bondage. (unbelief/no fear of God)

The end of the ones who ONCE ESCAPED the POLLUTIONS OF THE WORLD, ( doing evil, which the true ones turn them from, and the false ones say no evil shall come upon you.) is WORSE, as it was BETTER, they had never known the WAY OF RIGHTEOUSNESS, ( doing good, not evil, for all old ways to REMAIN PASSED AWAY/IF WE CONTINUE IN THE FAITH.) TURNING FROM the Holy commandment DELIVERED UNTO THEM. ( the Galatians ALSO desired to be AGAIN IN BONDAGE, to do what is not of faith=SIN.)



2 Peter 2:19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.

2 Peter 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

Galatians 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?




Accepted in the beloved/redemption, ( through His blood) WHEREIN HE HAS ABOUNDED TOWARD US IN ALL WISDOM AND PRUDENCE. ( TO KNOW THE LOVE OF CHRIST WHICH PASSES KNOWLEDGE, THAT WE MAY BE FILLED WITH ALL THE FULNESS OF GOD.)...


Ephesians 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;

Ephesians 3:19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

This is all just an oblique ad hominem attack which simply marks that you are failing badly in supporting your views from Scripture. If you can't successfully defeat the arguments of your opponents, attack them directly and insinuate that they are "false prophets." Unfortunately, what you don't seem to understand is that truth doesn't rely on the character of the one who offers it for its truthfulness. If Hitler said, "1+1=2" he'd be speaking the truth even though he was a genocidal maniac. An ad hominem attack, though, hopes to make others think that, because Hitler is evil, the truth he speaks must be false. But this just doesn't follow. 1+1=2 is true even if the person saying so is a scum-sucking rotter. So, then, maybe leave off the personal attacks. They just make you look desperate for a way to retrieve your arguments from collapse.

 

[Tenchi]

My case, my ideas, are that the Corinthians had to change their ways or die, ( of SRIFE/walking AS MEN.) and if they felt they had no reason to work out their salvation with fear and trembling, then they would not. ( not change, not live.)

Wow. Just more scripture confusion. Nowhere in 1 Corinthians 3 does Paul ever say that the Corinthian believers "had to change their ways or die." He said if they defiled the "temple" of God, their bodies would be destroyed, but Paul also explained that though all of their works as Christians were to be burned up, they would still enter God's kingdom.

1 Corinthians 3:11-15
11 For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw,
13 each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work.
14 If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward.
15 If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

There is, then, no threat of eternal death issued in the chapter by Paul, no warning of salvation lost if the Corinthians didn't pull up their spiritual socks and live better.

1 Corinthians 3:3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

1 Corinthians 3:1
1 And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual men, but as to men of flesh, as to infants in Christ.

1 Corinthians 3:9
9 For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, God's building.

1 Corinthians 3:16-17
16 Do you not know that you are a temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?
17 If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him, for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are.

1 Corinthians 3:23
23 and you belong to Christ...

God judges both the believer and non believer,

Yes, but in different ways to different ends. As I already showed you from Scripture, the saved person's works are judged, receiving testing by "fire," and those works that survive such testing receive a reward from God. But the unsaved person is judged as a person, they themselves are judged, their works testifying to their unsaved condition, being worthy of eternal damnation, not reward. So, it is quite false to assert that God judges the saved and unsaved in precisely the same way.

Jesus Christ does righteousness only, love, no sin, ( from the beginning) the devil does sin only, no righteousness. ( from the beginning.

The Son of God appeared ( in the flesh) that He might DESTROY THE WORKS OF THE DEVIL. ( SINS FROM THE BEGINNING.)

The message we HEARD ( the sheep hear the good Shepherd of the sheep/HIs voice.) FROM THE BEGINNNG, that we should WALK IN LOVE.


1 John 3:11 For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.



We don't be as Cain who was of the wicked one. ( from the beginning) we love, not with evil works as Cain of the devil sinning from the beginning, we do the righteousness that is of Christ now, which speaks/does better things than of Abel.



1 John 3:12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.

Hebrews 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.


The modern traslation has to reveal what passing from death to life is, it is loving the brothers, or if we do not love them in sincerity, we abide in death.

Not doing righteousness ( practising righteousness) is not loving our brother, if we hate our brother ( do works of unrighteousness as Cain of the wicked one, and not works of righteousness like Abel of God.) we hate our brother, even as murderers as Cain. ( no eternal life abiding in those who do unrighteousness/who do not love their brother.)

Also we perceive the love of God ( love, the message we heard from the beginning) because He ( Christ) laid HIs life down for us, and we should lay our lives down for the brothers. ( sin is the opposite to laying your life down, it is denial of Christ laying HIs life down, not belief of it.)..


1 John 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

1 John 3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
16 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.

All of this talks past my point almost entirely. And so, there's no reason for me to respond to it.

 

[Tenchi]

Scripture has sin as unbelief, and righteousness as belief.

Who said both can be done, maybe modern translations, but in practice, Christ is without sin ( He is faith/the love of God, and the devil is hatred, murder, no faith, no righteousness.


Does this sound familiar to anyone ? That only because of the words, we and our, this means the apostles of the Lord are included with sinners ? ( what happened to casting out from the church, the wicked person who does sins, and calls themselves a believer, if all are sinners?) This is all too familiar to label the Corinthians as born again, only for the sake of a word, a name, that they are called Christians, or babes in Christ, go to a church, are the building of God, a human body, and yet all in the world are these same, they all consider they are Christians, but many are called and few are chosen, is wisdom not justified of her children, and the unjust have no shame or sense of justice/the righteous jusgement of God, to render to every man according to his ways. ( the ways should be in Christ as we see in apostle Paul.)


The apostles show difference between them and the ones who have not heard, as they had true fellowship with the Father and with HIs Son Jesus Christ.


1 John 1:3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.



The apostles are different not only to unbelievers, they are the true example to the believers also.

Paul speaks to the Corinthians as unto children, but that does not mean born again, it means appealing to them to follow/believe correctly.

Just like John ( it has to be the very same) the fellowship is that believers cannot be yoked with unrighteousness. They are CLANSED FROM ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS.

Paul continues to the same Corinthians, that the temple of God. ( they who defile the temple of Gd are destroyed. 1 Corinthians 3:17.) has no agreement with idols, and they are the temple God walks in, and for this, THEY ARE TO COME OUT FROM AMONG THEM AND TO BE SEPERATE. ( from sinners/ as the High priest who BECAME US.) to not touch wat is unclean. ( CLEANSED FROM ALL UNRIGHTEOSNESS.) and He will receive us, ( then our fellowship truly is with the apostles as theirs was WITH THE FATHER AND WITH HIS SON JESUS CHRIST.) and be a Father unto jus, we shall be HIs sons and daughters.....


1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

2 Corinthians 6:13 Now for a recompence in the same, (I speak as unto my children,) be ye also enlarged.
14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?
16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.
18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

Hebrews 7:26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;



We have that advocate with the Father, we have to sin not. ( believe in Him/be separate from sinners, touch not the unclean thing, have true fellowship with the Father and Son, then He receives us to be a Father unto us.)

So to know the Father, to walk as the Son walked, ( not some idea that the apostles say us, our, and they are sinners) we are directed how, keeping His words, with the truth no lie, with love no hatred in what we do to others, because if we keep the word of God, the love of God is perfected in them, ( before the hatred of the devil was in them) and that is how they know they are in God, ( no longer in the devil)...



1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

1 John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

This all, as well, talks past my point about John's words, ignoring my point I suspect, because you have no good, direct answer to it. Because John wrote what he wrote and its impossible to deny it, you jump around to other places in Scripture in the hope, it seems to me, that no one will notice that you consistently fail to address in context the actual content of the passages you erroneously offer in support of your false doctrine that contradict you.

 

[Tenchi]

Without faith we cant please God, we need to diligently seek Him.


Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.


Enoch had the testimony that he pleased God. ( before his translation.)

But there is woe to those who have gone in the way of Cain. ( works evil not righteous as Abel's were.)

They are spots in charity, ( no love from the beginning as we heard, but hatred and murder as Cain of the wicked one from the beginning.) they feed themselves without FEAR, they are WITHOUT FRUIT, foaming out THEIR OWN SHAME, Enoch also prophesied of these, of the Lord coming to EXECUTE JUDGEMENT UPON ALL, to convince all the ungodly of all their UNGODLY DEEDS, which UNGODLY SINNERS HAVE COMMITED and spoken against Him, they are murmurers, complainers, speaking great swelling words of VANITY to have men's PERSONS IN ADMIRATION. ( God is not a RESPECTOR OF PERSONS, AND WILL RENDER TO EVERY MAN ACCORDING TO THEIR DEEDS. Romans 2:6. 2:11.)..



Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

Jude 1:11 Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.
12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;
13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.
14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
16 These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.

And just more off-point blathering to hide a lack of actual response to my points.

 

[JLB]

yes by doing, not talking, if you are a doer good for you, if not, then here again is how to do..

Fasting, praying and repentance is the way of cleansing.


The Holy Spirit will lead us in these things as we spend time seeking the Lord and asking Him to lead us in this work.


Now this is the confidence that we have in Him, that if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us. And if we know that He hears us, whatever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we have asked of Him. 1 John 5:14-15




JLB

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

The verse you've used here doesn't actually speak to the progressive, practical sanctification of the born-again person, but to the nature, and effect, of God's word. The verse describes the penetrating power of Scripture that reveals the "thoughts and intents of the heart"; it isn't saying anything about the believer's sanctification.

10 For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His. 11 Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience. 12 For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 13 And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are naked and open to the eyes of Him to whom we must give account. (Heb 4:10–13)

"The word of God" in Hebrews 4:12 is typically seen as being "the Bible", and the verse is typically seen as describing the Bible's power to discern the thoughts and intents of the heart. But closer inspection reveals that God Himself is the One "to whom we must give account". "All things are naked and open" to His eyes. He is the "discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart". And He is able to see boundry lines between a person's "soul and spirit". The Bible does not have these powers, but it points us to the One who does have them.

As a result, we must be diligent to actually enter God's rest because He can see and discern and understand every little tiny bit of what's going on inside us and He knows for sure whether or not we've actually "ceased from our works" and have put all our trust in Christ.

 

[RBDERRICK]

??? Where is the "consecration" for which you've used these verses as supporting ground?

The ground is salvation and justification being at the same time once and complete. Supporting ground is sanctification and circumcision of Christ being the same operation of His Spirit: quick, sure, at once, and complete.

Neither of them mention "consecration." What do you mean by "consecration," anyway?

Consecration to ministry is not supporting ground, but only follows wholly complete salvation, sanctification, and circumcision by Christ.

The only sanctification hanging 'in waiting' to follow a salvation and circumcision, is that of half-hearted repenters only seeking to sin less, but never sin not.

How does it differ from progressive sanctification?

Salvation, sanctification, and circumcision of Jesus Christ differs from downhill progressively incomplete sanctification of another christ.

Jesus Christ's call to ministerial consecration is progressive, and is not the same for all His saints.

When the word "consecrated" is used in Hebrews 10:20, it means "dedicated to," as the showbread in the temple that David ate had been consecrated to God (Matthew 12:3-4), or as Samuel was by his mother (1 Samuel 1:11, 22).

True. And it wasn't eaten all at once, nor completely by the same priest.

Sanctification is not as the ministerial showbread, but is the sanctifying passover lamb:

Exodus
{12:11} And thus shall ye eat it; [with] your loins girded, your shoes on your feet, and your staff in your hand; and ye shall eat it in haste: it [is] the LORD’S passover.

Numbers
{9:11} The fourteenth day of the second month at even they shall keep it, [and] eat it with unleavened bread and bitter [herbs. ]{9:12} They shall leave none of it unto the morning, nor break any bone of it: according to all the ordinances of the passover they shall keep it.
Numbers

It's in haste now and complete, even as circumcsion is quick and thorough. The circumcision of Christ has no hanging fleshy foreskin never quite cut off, as does the progressive circumcision made with sinful hands.

I agree that there is no separation between salvation and sanctification, the former requiring the latter, in fact. There is no one who is saved who has not, in Christ, also been wholly sanctified. (1 Corinthians 1:2, 30)

Exactly. Which of course is both spiritual and bodily:

1 Thess
{5:21} Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. {5:22} Abstain from all appearance of evil. {5:23} And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and [I pray God] your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Phillip
For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure. {2:14} Do all things without murmurings and disputings: {2:15} That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;

Matthew
{23:26} [Thou] blind Pharisee, cleanse first that [which is] within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

 

[RBDERRICK]

The verse you've used here doesn't actually speak to the progressive, practical sanctification of the born-again person, but to the nature, and effect, of God's word.

I know. The Scripture I give only speaks against lukewarm believers' own progressive sanctificaton and circumcision, that in practise is never complete. They never cease from sinning, because do not believe it is even possible to sin not.

Which proves their own faith alone is not the faith of Jesus, that always does those things pleasing to the Father.

Only them recieving Jesus' faith with repentance from all sinning, can possibly believe they can sin not, and always do those things pleasing to the Father and the Son

The all-victorious Lord risen from the dead, now commands all His enemies' to wholly repent from all sins and trespasses against Him. He only has mercy reserved for unconditional surrender, not for any self-willed and half-hearted conditional surrender of their own incomplete progressive version.

The verse describes the penetrating power of Scripture that reveals the "thoughts and intents of the heart"; it isn't saying anything about the believer's sanctification.

Finally, you are compelled to separate sanctification from circumcision, so as to keep your own manner of progressive version of repentance.

The circumcision of Christ is His sanctification of heart and life:

Colossians
{2:9} For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. {2:10} And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: {2:11} In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: {2:12} Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with [him] through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Salvation, sanctification, circumcison, and baptism by Christ, is one and the same operation of the Spirit: quick, powerful, and fully immersed in Christ Jesus.

Separating one operation of Christ from another, is to separate Christ from His own Spirit.

If you want to speak of the spiritually "circumcising" effect of salvation, I would suggest the following passage:

13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,

Correct. And if anyone suggests the Spirit's circumcision of the heart, is not the Lord's sanctification from dead works, then:

13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,

Any and all transgressions with the flesh are instantly cut away with lust from the heart, by the circumision and sanctfication of Christ.

Which is freely operated by the Spirit only in the new hearts and lives of them, that repent of all their sinning for Jesus' sake.

but their trusting in Christ as Savior and yielding to him as Lord.

True. Which is all at once and complete by circumcison of the heart and life, with unconditional surrender and repentance from all sins and trespasses against the Lord.

No one committing unrighteous works of the flesh and trespass against the Lord, from a disobedient and uncircumcsied heart, is either trusting in Him, nor yielded to Him at all.

 

[RBDERRICK]

It isn't changing their mind about (repenting of) their sin that saves lost people

No, repetence alone does not save the soul. It is only the beginning of having God's faith.

Heb
{6:1} Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

However, repentance is the only beginning of faith toward God.

The commandment is not just to repent and sin not, but to love God and our neighbors from a pure heart.

3 John
{1:11} Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hath not seen God.

1 Peter
{1:21} Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. {1:22} Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, [see that ye] love one another with a pure heart fervently:

Satanism teaches to repent and do no harm, but Satanists are not saved by harming not. Neither is any man saved by only sinning not.

Any man can repent for his own purposes, but only them that repent for Jesus' sake, do so to recieve His own faith and crown, that always does good to please the Father.

We repent of sinning to be sanctified and circumcised by the Spirit, not just to sin no more, but now as obedient sons to do His good will at all times.

1 Peter
{1:13} Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; {1:14} As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance: {1:15} But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; {1:16} Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

We are not called only to sin not, but we are called to sin not and be justified by only doing His good works.

Repentance alone is as faith alone: dead without doing good for Jesus' sake.

Eph
{4:28} Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with [his] hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.

Not sinning alone, as with no more stealing, is not now doing the good will of God, which is charity from a pure heart.

Romans
{7:3} So then if, while [her] husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man. {7:4} Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, [even] to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

As with fornication and stealing, we do not repent just to not fornicate and steal, but rather we repent from our old sins, that we may now be lawfully married to another person and life, even Jesus Christ the righteous.

Half-hearted repentance to marry another, is adultery when sinning with the old man.

Jerem
{3:8} And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also... {3:10} And yet for all this her treacherous sister Judah hath not turned unto me with her whole heart, but feignedly, saith the LORD.

 

[RBDERRICK]

I'm not sure what you mean by "a whole new heart and life, that is now all of God"

As Jesus would certainly say, Have ye not read so much as this:

2 Cor
{5:17} Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. {5:18} And all things [are] of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ

The new creature in Christ Jesus is all new and wholly complete in Him, with all things now being of God, and not of the devil.

Jesus does not have any lame legs, nor half a foot, nor crooked fingers in His own body on earth.

Hosea
{7:8} Ephraim, he hath mixed himself among the people; Ephraim is a cake not turned.

Rev
{3:15} I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. {3:16} So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

since Scripture is clear that "new creatures in Christ" still sin,

Your words do, not God's. I'm not preaching a sinner's life, but rather the Lord's sanctification and holiness in all things:

1 Peter
{1:14} As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance: {1:15} But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; {1:16} Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy

Ezek
{3:21} Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous [man,] that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul.

John
{5:14} Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.

1 Cor
{15:34} Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak [this] to your shame.

1 John
{2:1} My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not.

Whether in the old or new covenants of God, He alwaays commands His people to sin not against Him, and never has any promises them that do, and certainly never assures them they will.

The great error of sinners preaching their own faith alone, is that they trust only in themselves to sin more:

Eph
{2:8} For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

And preach of themselves:

2 Cor
{4:4} In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. {4:5} For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus’ sake.

God preaches the faith of Jesus to do His righteous will at all times, not the faith of half-hearted sinners doing less unrighteousness.