salvation and the loss of it

[Papa Zoom]

There is no such thing in the Bible as "presently saved." It's not taught or even suggested. I've never heard it before except for here and I can find no biblical support for the phrase. It's the one thing that as soon as I read it, I stop reading. I do not believe it is in any way, shape, or form, taught in the Scriptures.

 

[Nathan]

There is no such thing in the Bible as "presently saved." It's not taught or even suggested. I've never heard it before except for here and I can find no biblical support for the phrase. It's the one thing that as soon as I read it, I stop reading. I do not believe it is in any way, shape, or form, taught in the Scriptures.

I'm not understanding. Do you think we are not presently saved? I know some people think we are in 'limbo' and only know if we are saved at the end.

 

[Papa Zoom]

I'm not understanding. Do you think we are not presently saved? I know some people think we are in 'limbo' and only know if we are saved at the end.

No we are not presently saved. We are eternally saved. That's what the Bible teaches. The Bible teaches that we can know we are saved. This idea of saying "presently saved" is a human invention and very off putting. It simply aims at the idea that one is saved at the moment but there is no guarantee it's permanent. If the believer fails to jump through the correct hoops, bye bye "eternal" salvation. That's the message that consistently follows the use of "presently saved." It's simply not taught in the Scriptures and shouldn't be used.

 

[Nathan]

No we are not presently saved. We are eternally saved. That's what the Bible teaches. The Bible teaches that we can know we are saved. This idea of saying "presently saved" is a human invention and very off putting. It simply aims at the idea that one is saved at the moment but there is no guarantee it's permanent. If the believer fails to jump through the correct hoops, bye bye "eternal" salvation. That's the message that consistently follows the use of "presently saved." It's simply not taught in the Scriptures and shouldn't be used.

I would say that John for sure uses the idea of being presently saved. Paul also uses the idea in order to convey how a person should understand their position in Christ and dealings with our flesh. I would agree it is misused, but the reality of it is very much needed. Otherwise people think that salvation is something we 'do', not Who we are in.

Romans 12
1 I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship.
2 Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.

If people only view it as a 'once' thing, then they look at passages above as 'already done'.

 

[Papa Zoom]

Can you post a verse saying if you stop believing in Christ....you lose your salvation

What many seem to miss in these endless round and round ad nausium discussions is the simple fact that a Believer would NOT stop believing in Jesus. If you're a follower of Christ, you follow. Because the HS will hound you one way or the other. Jesus promises to keep you. You can't simply stop believing IF you are a True Believer in Jesus.

/thread

 

[Papa Zoom]

I would say that John for sure uses the idea of being presently saved. Paul also uses the idea in order to convey how a person should understand their position in Christ and dealings with our flesh. I would agree it is misused, but the reality of it is very much needed. Otherwise people think that salvation is something we 'do', not Who we are in.

Romans 12
1 I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship.
2 Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.

If people only view it as a 'once' thing, then they look at passages above as 'already done'.

there is nothing in those verses that says presently saved or even suggest it

 

[Nathan]

there is nothing in those verses that says presently saved or even suggest it

Do you think Paul was talking about presently presenting their bodies as a living sacrifice, or telling them to do it one time?

 

[Nathan]

What many seem to miss in these endless round and round ad nausium discussions is the simple fact that a Believer would NOT stop believing in Jesus. If you're a follower of Christ, you follow. Because the HS will hound you one way or the other. Jesus promises to keep you. You can't simply stop believing IF you are a True Believer in Jesus.

/thread

If a believer could not stop believing, then who are the ones who fall away from the faith? Doesn't faith require belief? The seed on rocky ground, Jesus said they believed - then fell away.

 

[Papa Zoom]

Do you think Paul was talking about presently presenting their bodies as a living sacrifice, or telling them to do it one time?

I think that question detracts from the question of eternal security. Paul was stating a principle of godly living. And the principle is consistent with other biblical teaching such as I Corinthians 6:19 Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; 20 you were bought at a price. Therefore glorify God with your body.…
This theme runs throughout the NT. It answers the question on how we ought to conduct ourselves in the world.

 

[Papa Zoom]

If a believer could not stop believing, then who are the ones who fall away from the faith? Doesn't faith require belief? The seed on rocky ground, Jesus said they believed - then fell away.

Jude 1:24Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you unblemished in His glorious presence, with great joy — 25to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, dominion, and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all time, and now, and for all eternity. Amen.…

Jesus keep us. Philippians 1: 6For I am confident of this, that He who began a good work in you will continue to perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.

I John 2:19They went out from us, but they did not belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us. But their departure made it clear that none of them belonged to us. 20You, however, have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth.…

 

[Nathan]

Jude 1:24Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you unblemished in His glorious presence, with great joy — 25to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, dominion, and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all time, and now, and for all eternity. Amen.…

Jesus keep us. Philippians 1: 6For I am confident of this, that He who began a good work in you will continue to perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.

I John 2:19They went out from us, but they did not belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us. But their departure made it clear that none of them belonged to us. 20You, however, have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth.…

True, but Jesus said they believed. He was very specific.

I know of no other faith that is talked about in the NT which is not saving faith, that a believer is said to fall away from. How can we say they were never saved? Is there something that wasn't 'done' right when they believed? Is salvation based on something we do?

Does Jesus ever say a person who believes is not saved?

 

[Papa Zoom]

True, but Jesus said they believed. He was very specific.

I know of no other faith that is talked about in the NT which is not saving faith, that a believer is said to fall away from. How can we say they were never saved? Is there something that wasn't 'done' right when they believed? Is salvation based on something we do?

Does Jesus ever say a person who believes is not saved?

It's hard to reconcile the verses I just posted if one takes the position that a Believer can lose his/her salvation. That means that Jesus cannot keep you from falling and will not complete the good work He began in you.

Here's a better question: Why are Christians here going on and on and on about losing one's salvation? How is that building up the body? Where's the talk about the assurance of salvation which the Bible clearly teaches? This issue has divided Christianity long enough. Such talk is unproductive to the Faith. It does nothing and for those new or weak in the Faith, it's discouraging and even defeating.

 

[Nathan]

It's hard to reconcile the verses I just posted if one takes the position that a Believer can lose his/her salvation. That means that Jesus cannot keep you from falling and will not complete the good work He began in you.

Here's a better question: Why are Christians here going on and on and on about losing one's salvation? How is that building up the body? Where's the talk about the assurance of salvation which the Bible clearly teaches? This issue has divided Christianity long enough. Such talk is unproductive to the Faith. It does nothing and for those new or weak in the Faith, it's discouraging and even defeating.

I think that the assurance is overlooked in the hatred people have of what is being said about salvation.

There is complete assurance of salvation in Christ. The other side of the discussion seems to want to nullify that. Not only that, but wants to give assurance outside of Christ - why? Does any of the NT passages on salvation seek to justify someone apart from Christ?

The verses you pose are not hard at all to reconcile. Most often people don't want to reconcile them though. If you would, I would love to go through them and show how they can be seen in the light of eternal security in Christ - not outside of Him.

 

[Papa Zoom]

I think that the assurance is overlooked in the hatred people have of what is being said about salvation.

There is complete assurance of salvation in Christ. The other side of the discussion seems to want to nullify that. Not only that, but wants to give assurance outside of Christ - why? Does any of the NT passages on salvation seek to justify someone apart from Christ?

The verses you pose are not hard at all to reconcile. Most often people don't want to reconcile them though. If you would, I would love to go through them and show how they can be seen in the light of eternal security in Christ - not outside of Him.

I do not think there is any eternal security outside of Christ. No one is justified before God apart from the finished work of Christ. Anyone who claims otherwise is making a heretical claim. Jesus is the way and no one comes to God but through Him.

 

[Nathan]

I do not think there is any eternal security outside of Christ. No one is justified before God apart from the finished work of Christ. Anyone who claims otherwise is making a heretical claim. Jesus is the way and no one comes to God but through Him.

I agree. That's why I stand my ground with salvation in Christ alone, and will alway contend for the faith when people try to say a believer can believe what they want and still stay in Christ.

What's ironic is I was not 'assured' of salvation until I stepped away from the idea of OSAS. I could not reconcile how I could be saved, and yet live like I wanted. I was taught that I could never leave the faith, but it was alway based on something I did.

Then I was shown that it was not what I had done that saved me, but what Christ did. If I trusted in something else for salvation then I would be no better than the Pharisee, Hindu, Muslim, etc.

What people so hatefully think is a preaching of "loss of salvation" is nothing more than "being secure in Christ alone". I was absolutely sure of salvation the moment I realized it was in Christ alone.

If it's in Christ alone, then that means it's not based on anything else, and if a person leaves Christ they leave salvation. All of the 'hard' and 'conflicting' passages finally came into clear view as a complete message.

 

[FreeGrace]

FreeGrace

Is a person who has salvation written into Gods book of life? When does that happen?

Yes. Before the foundation of the earth. Because God is omniscient.

 

[FreeGrace]

There is no such thing in the Bible as "presently saved." It's not taught or even suggested. I've never heard it before except for here and I can find no biblical support for the phrase. It's the one thing that as soon as I read it, I stop reading. I do not believe it is in any way, shape, or form, taught in the Scriptures.

I have used the phrase "presently believe" in an attempt to teach certain posters about the Greek present tense. Their claim is that one is only saved as long as they presently believe. iow, if or when they cease to believe, they are no longer saved, or they are not presently saved if they are not presently believing. Such an idea stretches the present tense out into some weird kind of future tense.

 

[FreeGrace]

No we are not presently saved. We are eternally saved. That's what the Bible teaches. The Bible teaches that we can know we are saved. This idea of saying "presently saved" is a human invention and very off putting. It simply aims at the idea that one is saved at the moment but there is no guarantee it's permanent. If the believer fails to jump through the correct hoops, bye bye "eternal" salvation. That's the message that consistently follows the use of "presently saved." It's simply not taught in the Scriptures and shouldn't be used.

 

[FreeGrace]

I think that question detracts from the question of eternal security. Paul was stating a principle of godly living. And the principle is consistent with other biblical teaching such as I Corinthians 6:19 Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; 20 you were bought at a price. Therefore glorify God with your body.…
This theme runs throughout the NT. It answers the question on how we ought to conduct ourselves in the world.

The problem is that some or many interpret this as a requirement to either get saved or stay saved. Which it isn't.

 

[FreeGrace]

Edited as a violation of 2.4

2.4: No Trolling. Do not make an inflammatory remark just to get a response. Address issues not personalities. Respect where people are in their spiritual walk, and respect all others in general. Respect where others are in their spiritual walk, do not disrupt the flow of discussion or act in a way that affects others negatively including when debating doctrinal issues, in the defense of the Christian faith, and in offering unwelcome spiritual advice.

1) Give other members the respect you would have them give to yourself. (ToS 2.4)
Address issues/ideas, not persons or personalities. Do not insult, publicly post derogatory opinions of others, post insinuation to belittle or discredit, or otherwise create a hostile environment. Present evidence for support or rebuttal during debate. Bashing the author of another view or opinion is not evidence.