salvation and the loss of it

[Nathan]

Yes. Before the foundation of the earth. Because God is omniscient.

Do you believe their names can be blotted out?

 

[reba]

Closed while i ponder this ...opened

 

[Gregg T]

Can we jump out of His hand ? Leaving on our own is not being 'plucked'

To leave on your own, God would first have to losen His grasp. Can you show if He is willing to do that, or where He has done that?

 

[Papa Zoom]

I have several posts to me that I couldn't respond to because of the closure. But these types of discussion seem to get heated and I'm going to take a break from it.

 

[FreeGrace]

reba said: ↑
Can we jump out of His hand ? Leaving on our own is not being 'plucked'

To leave on your own, God would first have to losen His grasp. Can you show if He is willing to do that, or where He has done that?

This is a very serious issue. If one can "leave on their own", that would mean that they are more powerful than God. For it is God who saves us, and holds us in His hand. Since Jesus made the point twice that no one is able to snatch a recipient of eternal life out of either His or His Father's hand, that has to include the recipient as well. Because "no one" means "no person", and probably even includes the idea of "no entities", such as fallen angels.

If a recipient of eternal life could leave on their own, and ultimately perish, what does that do to Jesus' promise that recipients of eternal life will never perish? It would make His promise untrue.

I continue to wonder why anyone would argue for such a conclusion.

 

[Nathan]

To leave on your own, God would first have to losen His grasp. Can you show if He is willing to do that, or where He has done that?

Judas. God chose him, gave him to Christ, and Judas chose to betray Jesus - Jesus let him, and it was a fulfillment of prophesy.

While it's nice to take things like no man 'snatching' us out of His hand literal, that's not the way it was intended to be read. It is a statement of God not allowing us to be unknowingly taken away from Him - it's saying we cannot be stolen, taken by force.

It's a description of ownership, not of control. If it was a description of control, then we would alway do what He wants. We don't, so we know it's not a description of control.

Matthew 24
9 Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations for my name's sake.
10 And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another.
11 And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray.
12 And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold.
13 But the one who endures to the end will be saved.

 

[FreeGrace]

Judas. God chose him, gave him to Christ, and Judas chose to betray Jesus - Jesus let him, and it was a fulfillment of prophesy.

What did God choose Judas for? To betray the Christ. Election is being chosen for service, not salvation, as the Calvinists misunderstand.

While it's nice to take things like no man 'snatching' us out of His hand literal, that's not the way it was intended to be read.

Then how can anyone know "the way it was intended"? That's a pretty broad brush to be painting with.

The ONLY WAY we can know what was intended is by reading the ACTUAL WORDS. And the actual words say "no one" which can just as easily be rendered "no person" or "no entity" can remove us from His hand.

That would even include the recipient (context, remember?).

It is a statement of God not allowing us to be unknowingly taken away from Him - it's saying we cannot be stolen, taken by force.

There is nothing here to suggest being stolen or taken by force. Jesus' words are quite plain; no person can remove the recipient from His or His Father's hand. And recipients of eternal life are PERSONS, so Jesus was including them as well.

It's a description of ownership, not of control.

Of course. God owns all recipients of eternal life. As owner, He has sealed all of them, placed them IN CHRIST, and guarantees their inheritance for the day of redemption, just as Eph 1:14 says plainly.

Matthew 24
9 Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations for my name's sake.
10 And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another.
11 And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray.
12 And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold.
13 But the one who endures to the end will be saved.

The key here is that context shows this is about the Great Tribulation. And v.9 shows that physical death is being described.

The word for "save" in the Greek is 'sozo' and does NOT default to "eternal soul salvation", though commonly is assumed as much.

The word simply means "to deliver from danger, to rescue".

If enduring to the end is the requirement for eternal soul salvation, then Paul's answer to the jailer was false, and Jesus' promise to recipients of eternal life would be untrue, and I could go on and on about all the verses that would be rendered untrue.

 

[reba]

reba said: ↑
Can we jump out of His hand ? Leaving on our own is not being 'plucked'

This is a very serious issue. If one can "leave on their own", that would mean that they are more powerful than God. For it is God who saves us, and holds us in His hand. Since Jesus made the point twice that no one is able to snatch a recipient of eternal life out of either His or His Father's hand, that has to include the recipient as well. Because "no one" means "no person", and probably even includes the idea of "no entities", such as fallen angels.

If a recipient of eternal life could leave on their own, and ultimately perish, what does that do to Jesus' promise that recipients of eternal life will never perish? It would make His promise untrue.

I continue to wonder why anyone would argue for such a conclusion.

Thinking / believing one can Jump, leave, fall out of His hands gives credence to the warnings of the Scripture..

2Ti 3:6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,

Luk_21:8 And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.
1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

1Co 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Rev_21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Tit 1:14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.
Tit 1:15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.
Tit 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

Not expecting a change of heart here just not willing to let what i see as a partial truth go without being answered with His Word.

 

[Nathan]

What did God choose Judas for? To betray the Christ. Election is being chosen for service, not salvation, as the Calvinists misunderstand.


Then how can anyone know "the way it was intended"? That's a pretty broad brush to be painting with.

The ONLY WAY we can know what was intended is by reading the ACTUAL WORDS. And the actual words say "no one" which can just as easily be rendered "no person" or "no entity" can remove us from His hand.

That would even include the recipient (context, remember?).


There is nothing here to suggest being stolen or taken by force. Jesus' words are quite plain; no person can remove the recipient from His or His Father's hand. And recipients of eternal life are PERSONS, so Jesus was including them as well.


Of course. God owns all recipients of eternal life. As owner, He has sealed all of them, placed them IN CHRIST, and guarantees their inheritance for the day of redemption, just as Eph 1:14 says plainly.


The key here is that context shows this is about the Great Tribulation. And v.9 shows that physical death is being described.

The word for "save" in the Greek is 'sozo' and does NOT default to "eternal soul salvation", though commonly is assumed as much.

The word simply means "to deliver from danger, to rescue".

If enduring to the end is the requirement for eternal soul salvation, then Paul's answer to the jailer was false, and Jesus' promise to recipients of eternal life would be untrue, and I could go on and on about all the verses that would be rendered untrue.

James 1:13 (ESV)
Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God," for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one.

You have zero basis for saying God chose Judas to betray Christ. That goes against who God is on so many levels.

Do you believe that God chose Judas to serve Him by sinning?

I am talking context. Jesus was talking to the Jewish leaders who did not believe in Him. He was talking about sheep. In those days people 'snatched' sheep. He was not saying that the sheep could not wonder away.

Luke 15:4 (ESV)
What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he has lost one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the open country, and go after the one that is lost, until he finds it?

Ask yourself this question - how did the sheep become lost if the Father would not let it leave His hand?

 

[FreeGrace]

Thinking / believing one can Jump, leave, fall out of His hands gives credence to the warnings of the Scripture..

I see it quite the opposite. Such thinking renders the clear promises of eternal security as untrue.

2Ti 3:6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,

How is one led to think they can lose salvation from this verse?

Luk_21:8 And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.
1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

Same question here.

1Co 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

There are 3 parallel passages; this one, Gal 5:21 and Eph 5:5. Similar lists of sin in all of them, and Eph 5:5 says "no inheritance IN the kingdom". So "no inheritance IN the kingdom" is equivalent to "not inherit the kingdom". All 3 passages are warning of loss of inheritance IN the kingdom. Or loss of reward, since Paul taught that one who endures will "reign with Christ" in 2 Tim 2:12. Only those who have an inheritance IN the kingdom will reign with Christ. That's why we need to endure.

Rev_21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Tit 1:14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.
Tit 1:15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.
Tit 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

Not expecting a change of heart here just not willing to let what i see as a partial truth go without being answered with His Word.

Yet, Jesus promised recipients of eternal life that they will never perish. That's quite permanent.

So none of the verses above can be about losing salvation. Or Jesus' promise cannot be true.

Either recipients will never perish, or some recipients will perish.

The Bible does not teach both of these ideas. Only one can be true. Jesus promised recipients of eternal life that they will never perish.

 

[Nathan]

Matthew 24 is about tribulation - period. He is speaking about believers, regardless of time frame. Endurance is needed. Jesus was not lying about it, and neither was Paul.

Acts 14
21 When they had preached the gospel to that city and had made many disciples, they returned to Lystra and to Iconium and to Antioch,
22 strengthening the souls of the disciples, encouraging them to continue in the faith, and saying that through many tribulations we must enter the kingdom of God.
23 And when they had appointed elders for them in every church, with prayer and fasting they committed them to the Lord in whom they had believed.

 

[FreeGrace]

James 1:13 (ESV)
Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God," for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one.

You have zero basis for saying God chose Judas to betray Christ. That goes against who God is on so many levels.

This is a strange comment, given what was posted by you in #566:
"Judas. God chose him, gave him to Christ, and Judas chose to betray Jesus - Jesus let him, and it was a fulfillment of prophesy."

So, the basis for my saying so came directly from your own post.

Do you believe that God chose Judas to serve Him by sinning?

Judas absolutely did serve a purpose in betraying Jesus. And another statement in your own post:
"Jesus let him, and it was a fulfillment of prophesy."

I am talking context. Jesus was talking to the Jewish leaders who did not believe in Him. He was talking about sheep. In those days people 'snatched' sheep. He was not saying that the sheep could not wonder away.

This takes the metaphor way too far. Jesus' promise was to recipients of eternal life, not sheep. Human beings. Surely no one would conclude that Jesus gave eternal life to sheep, right?

Ask yourself this question - how did the sheep become lost if the Father would not let it leave His hand?

I'm not interested in stretching metaphors way beyond their use.

But I do have a question: If any recipient of eternal life CAN perish, what does that do to Jesus' promise in John 10:28?

 

[Nathan]

I see it quite the opposite. Such thinking renders the clear promises of eternal security as untrue.


How is one led to think they can lose salvation from this verse?


Same question here.


There are 3 parallel passages; this one, Gal 5:21 and Eph 5:5. Similar lists of sin in all of them, and Eph 5:5 says "no inheritance IN the kingdom". So "no inheritance IN the kingdom" is equivalent to "not inherit the kingdom". All 3 passages are warning of loss of inheritance IN the kingdom. Or loss of reward, since Paul taught that one who endures will "reign with Christ" in 2 Tim 2:12. Only those who have an inheritance IN the kingdom will reign with Christ. That's why we need to endure.


Yet, Jesus promised recipients of eternal life that they will never perish. That's quite permanent.

So none of the verses above can be about losing salvation. Or Jesus' promise cannot be true.

Either recipients will never perish, or some recipients will perish.

The Bible does not teach both of these ideas. Only one can be true. Jesus promised recipients of eternal life that they will never perish.

No one found in Christ when He returns will perish. That is eternal security. The rest we have is in Christ, not outside of Him.

Hebrews 3
7 Therefore, as the Holy Spirit says, "Today, if you hear his voice,
8 do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion, on the day of testing in the wilderness,
9 where your fathers put me to the test and saw my works for forty years.
10 Therefore I was provoked with that generation, and said, 'They always go astray in their heart; they have not known my ways.'
11 As I swore in my wrath, 'They shall not enter my rest.'"
12 Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God.
13 But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called "today," that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end.

 

[reba]

I dont believe the Scriptures say the unbelieving will not parish ...


15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.

Is there a Scripture/passage that tells us the unbelieving will not parish?

I am so thankful for the foundation i was blessed with..

2Ti 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Cherry picking Scriptures leads to cults

 

[FreeGrace]

No one found in Christ when He returns will perish.

That's NOT what He promised in John 10:28. He promised RECIPIENTS of eternal life that they will never perish.

Please don't try to change what He promised.

That is eternal security.

John 10:28 is a promise of eternal security. All recipients of eternal life will never perish.

Please notice Jesus gave no conditions to recipients. Just the plain fact of receiving eternal life results in never perishing.

So, once saved, always saved. Period.

 

[FreeGrace]

I dont believe the Scriptures say the unbelieving will not parish ...

Certainly not. What Jesus promised in Jn 10:28 is that recipients of eternal life will never perish.

No conditions for the recipients. Just the mere fact of receiving eternal life results in never perishing. That is eternal securrity.

Is there a Scripture/passage that tells us the unbelieving will not parish?

Of course not. The Bible only uses the term "unbeliever" for one who has never believed.

Cherry picking Scriptures leads to cults

Is this an accusation?

 

[reba]

Joh 10:24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.
Joh 10:25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
Joh 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
Joh 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.



Question: "Who divided the Bible into chapters and verses? Why and when was it done?"

Answer: When the books of the Bible were originally written, they did not contain chapter or verse references. The Bible was divided into chapters and verses to help us find Scriptures more quickly and easily. It is much easier to find "John chapter 3, verse 16" than it is to find "for God so loved the world..." In a few places, chapter breaks are poorly placed and as a result divide content that should flow together. Overall, though, the chapter and verse divisions are very helpful.

The chapter divisions commonly used today were developed by Stephen Langton, an Archbishop of Canterbury. Langton put the modern chapter divisions into place in around A.D. 1227. The Wycliffe English Bible of 1382 was the first Bible to use this chapter pattern. Since the Wycliffe Bible, nearly all Bible translations have followed Langton's chapter divisions.

The Hebrew Old Testament was divided into verses by a Jewish rabbi by the name of Nathan in A.D. 1448. Robert Estienne, who was also known as Stephanus, was the first to divide the New Testament into standard numbered verses, in 1555. Stephanus essentially used Nathan's verse divisions for the Old Testament. Since that time, beginning with the Geneva Bible, the chapter and verse divisions employed by Stephanus have been accepted into nearly all the Bible versions.

https://www.gotquestions.org/divided-Bible-chapters-verses.html

 

[reba]

Of course not. The Bible only uses the term "unbeliever" for one who has never believed.

What scripture says that ?

 

[reba]

Is this an accusation?

nope just an observation of a life time

 

[Nathan]

This is a strange comment, given what was posted by you in #566:
"Judas. God chose him, gave him to Christ, and Judas chose to betray Jesus - Jesus let him, and it was a fulfillment of prophesy."

So, the basis for my saying so came directly from your own post.


Judas absolutely did serve a purpose in betraying Jesus. And another statement in your own post:
"Jesus let him, and it was a fulfillment of prophesy."


This takes the metaphor way too far. Jesus' promise was to recipients of eternal life, not sheep. Human beings. Surely no one would conclude that Jesus gave eternal life to sheep, right?


I'm not interested in stretching metaphors way beyond their use.

But I do have a question: If any recipient of eternal life CAN perish, what does that do to Jesus' promise in John 10:28?

Jesus let Judas leave, and Judas leaving was a fulfillment of prophesy.

Prophesy is not God deciding what is going to happen - regardless if someone wants to do something. Prophecy is God foretelling what will happen.

God allowing something to happen is not the same as Him making it happen.

Judas was chosen by God for Christ. Judas was not chosen to betray Jesus, he simple did it because he turned from Christ. This is an example of why we should not turn from Christ.

The metaphor is not taken too far, it is the exact context Jesus spoke it in. Jesus was speaking about someone snatching His sheep from His and the Fathers hand, He was not talking about the sheep not leaving. We know that sheep can wonder away from His hand - or else they cannot become lost.

John 10
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.
28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.
29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.

Sheep are the context.