salvation and the loss of it

[FreeGrace]

I asked this:
"Did Jesus promise recipients of eternal life that they will never perish in John 10:28?"

No, Jesus promised His sheep they would never perish.

Does the phrase "I give them" mean anything? If Jesus GIVES His sheep something, are they not recipients of what He GIVES??

Of course they are. So, your answer 'no' is wrong. He promised those He gives eternal life (recipients of same) they will never perish.

Then I asked this:
"Did Jesus give conditions to recipients of eternal life so that they will never perish in John 10:28?"

Yes, they had to be His sheep - defined by those who hear His voice and follow Him. (Verse 27).

Incorrect again. John 10:9 defines HOW one becomes His sheep:
" I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved.They will come in and go out, and find pasture."

This is how one becomes one of His sheep. Through faith. Period.

If "following Him" was a condition for never perishing, then said so clearly.

It would look somethiing like this:

27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.
28 I give them eternal life, and as long as they keep following Me, they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

But, as we all know, the red words are not found in the text.

So your view adds a condition that doesn't exist.

v.28 clearly promises that recipients of eternal life (I give them...) will never perish.

The loss of salvation view ADDS conditions that Jesus NEVER DID.

 

[Nathan]

I asked this:
"Did Jesus promise recipients of eternal life that they will never perish in John 10:28?"

Does the phrase "I give them" mean anything? If Jesus GIVES His sheep something, are they not recipients of what He GIVES??

Of course they are. So, your answer 'no' is wrong. He promised those He gives eternal life (recipients of same) they will never perish.

Then I asked this:
"Did Jesus give conditions to recipients of eternal life so that they will never perish in John 10:28?"


Incorrect again. John 10:9 defines HOW one becomes His sheep:
" I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved.They will come in and go out, and find pasture."

This is how one becomes one of His sheep. Through faith. Period.

If "following Him" was a condition for never perishing, then said so clearly.

It would look somethiing like this:

27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.
28 I give them eternal life, and as long as they keep following Me, they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

But, as we all know, the red words are not found in the text.

So your view adds a condition that doesn't exist.

v.28 clearly promises that recipients of eternal life (I give them...) will never perish.

The loss of salvation view ADDS conditions that Jesus NEVER DID.

Why not just leave the words in the Bible the way they are written? Why do we need to add to them, or take away from them?

He said His sheep hear His voice and follow Him. That's not hard to understand.

 

[Nathan]

I asked this:
"Did Jesus promise recipients of eternal life that they will never perish in John 10:28?"

Does the phrase "I give them" mean anything? If Jesus GIVES His sheep something, are they not recipients of what He GIVES??

Of course they are. So, your answer 'no' is wrong. He promised those He gives eternal life (recipients of same) they will never perish.

Then I asked this:
"Did Jesus give conditions to recipients of eternal life so that they will never perish in John 10:28?"


Incorrect again. John 10:9 defines HOW one becomes His sheep:
" I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved.They will come in and go out, and find pasture."

This is how one becomes one of His sheep. Through faith. Period.

If "following Him" was a condition for never perishing, then said so clearly.

It would look somethiing like this:

27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.
28 I give them eternal life, and as long as they keep following Me, they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

But, as we all know, the red words are not found in the text.

So your view adds a condition that doesn't exist.

v.28 clearly promises that recipients of eternal life (I give them...) will never perish.

The loss of salvation view ADDS conditions that Jesus NEVER DID.

Do you believe if they exit the gate they are still His sheep? If they leave and go eat in another pasture than His?

 

[Gregg T]

No, that's not the issue we're discussing here. Christ really being raised from the dead does not change the fact that they are saved by the gospel because they are holding onto the gospel, not saved simply because the gospel is true. That's the issue you're not addressing.

1Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain." (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB)

The 'if' is not in regard to 'if' the gospel is true. The 'if' is in regard to their present believing. They are presently saved 'if' they are presently believing (which they are). But you are making it out to be they are saved 'if' the gospel is true (which it is).

Not what you are discussing, which is different than what the Scripture in question dealt with.

The "if" was in regards to the Gospel Paul preached - wether they held to Pauls preaching, or wether they held to a different gospel.

If they believed a "g"ospel that did not include Christ's Resurrection, then that faith would have been in vain and worthless.

If they believed the "G"ospel Paul preached which included Christ's Resurrection, then they were being kept safe.

 

[Cygnus]

Just post the passage where it says trusting in Christ is equivalent to trying to earn your own salvation. That's what you have to do to prove your point, but as we will see, there is no such passage.

Can you post a verse saying if you stop believing in Christ....you lose your salvation

 

[Jethro Bodine]

If they believed the "G"ospel Paul preached which included Christ's Resurrection, then they were being kept safe.

No, it says if they hold fast the gospel (present tense) they are saved.
The condition for being presently saved is that you are presently holding fast the gospel. But you and FreeGrace keep changing the passages to say 'if you once believed, but don't now, you are saved/ have eternal life':

"1Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain." (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB bold mine)

"...he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life." (John 5:24 NASB bold mine)

As can be plainly seen, it is the person who is presently believing/ holding fast the gospel who has eternal life, not the former believer who does not presently believe. The present tense makes it impossible for you and FreeGrace to insist that the person who no longer believes and no longer holds fast the gospel word has eternal life. That's why we're not buying your doctrine. You are literally changing the words of scripture. Honest Christians simply aren't going to accept that.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Can you post a verse saying if you stop believing in Christ....you lose your salvation

Where have you been?
We've been posting them for months now.

And now, back to my challenge. Post the passage that says faith is a work that can not justify and that if you are doing that in order to stay saved you are trying to earn your own salvation. Just post it and we'll be done here.

 

[Cygnus]

Where have you been?
We've been posting them for months now.

And now, back to my challenge. Post the passage that says faith is a work that can not justify and that if you are doing that in order to stay saved you are trying to earn your own salvation. Just post it and we'll be done here.

Once again, post a verse that says if you lose faith you lose your salvation.
Yeah, you may have posted a verse..or perhaps thought you posted a verse....but if you did, it should be easy for you to repost that particular verse. If that verse is so popular it should run off your tongue like water. So, the verse please.

 

[Gregg T]

No, it says if they hold fast the gospel (present tense) they are saved.
The condition for being presently saved is that you are presently holding fast the gospel. But you and FreeGrace keep changing the passages to say 'if you once believed but don't now you have eternal life':

"1Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain." (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB bold mine)

"...he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life." (John 5:24 NASB bold mine)

As can be plainly seen, it is the person who is presently believing who has eternal life, not the former believer. The present tense makes it impossible for you and FreeGrace to insist that the person who no longer believes and no longer holds fast the gospel word has eternal life. That's why we're not buying your doctrine. You are literally changing the words of scripture.

Again, you conflate things.

1 Cor 15:1-2 is not speaking about whether they believed, versus not believing or ceasing to believe.

1 Cor 15:1-2 is speaking about whether they believed the Gospel Paul preached, Christ's Resurrection (1 Cor 15:12a) versus another gospel false teachers were promoting, no resurrection (1 Cor 15:12b-13).

It is not their believing that is in question, but the object /content of what they believed - Paul's Gopsel or a false gospel, what they heard when they believed into Christ or a false teaching that came later, the Resurrection or no resurrection.

[edited]

 

[WIP]

I'm going to post this in this thread as well as others. Let's refrain from using usernames to form characterizations of others' views or define doctrines. Although it may be in jest at times, it is disrespectful. Frustrated or not, keep the discussion civil.

 

[FreeGrace]

Why not just leave the words in the Bible the way they are written? Why do we need to add to them, or take away from them?

That was my question in post #521.

He said His sheep hear His voice and follow Him. That's not hard to understand.

No, it's not hard to understand.

Neither is v.28 where Jesus promised those He gives eternal life (which makes His sheep recipients of eternal life) that they will never perish. This is a guarantee of eternal security.

His sheep are secure, not because they follow Him, but because of what He gives them: eternal life.

Having eternal life = eternal security.

 

[FreeGrace]

Do you believe if they exit the gate they are still His sheep?

I do because there are no verses about any of His sheep becoming anyone else's sheep.

Once His sheep, always His sheep. Because of what He promises them; they will never perish.

If they leave and go eat in another pasture than His?

If there are any verses within the context of ch 10 that says that one of His sheep can become someone else's sheep.

It's not about whose pasture a sheep eats in. It's about who owns the sheep.

The sheep that Jesus owns have been given eternal life and therefore, will never perish.

That means anyone and everyone who is given eternal life will never perish. That's what Jesus promised.

 

[FreeGrace]

No, it says if they hold fast the gospel (present tense) they are saved.

The present tense in Greek doesn't mean continuous action out into the future. It means action that is occurring in the present, or now, or in the here and now, or presently, or currently.

To say "I am mowing the grass" indicates an ongoing action, but there is no sense from the present tense that I'll continue mowing the grass beyond "right now".

The condition for being presently saved is that you are presently holding fast the gospel. But you and FreeGrace keep changing the passages to say 'if you once believed, but don't now, you are saved/ have eternal life':

Jesus promised those He gives eternal life will never perish.

Since He gave no conditions for never perishing beyond giving eternal life, there are none.

As can be plainly seen, it is the person who is presently believing/ holding fast the gospel who has eternal life, not the former believer who does not presently believe. The present tense makes it impossible for you and FreeGrace to insist that the person who no longer believes and no longer holds fast the gospel word has eternal life.

This claim about the present tense is in error. Please consult a Greek grammar text.

That's why we're not buying your doctrine. You are literally changing the words of scripture. Honest Christians simply aren't going to accept that.

Given the claim that one who ceases to believe ceases to be saved, why didn't Jesus include that (or any) condition in His promise to recipients of eternal life, that they will never perish?

It's a plain fact that there are those who believed in Christ for salvation, received the gift of eternal life, and then later on ceased to believe. Yet, Jesus bases His promise on the FACT of receiving eternal life, NOT continuing to believe.

iow, our salvation is totally based on what He does for us. And not one thing we are required for Him.

That means anyone and everyone who is given eternal life will never perish. That's what Jesus promised.

Having eternal life = eternal security.

 

[FreeGrace]

Cygnus said: ↑
Can you post a verse saying if you stop believing in Christ....you lose your salvation

Where have you been?
We've been posting them for months now.

If that were true, the argument would be over.

otoh, Jesus promised recipients of eternal life will never perish in John 10:28.

Therefore, having eternal life = eternal security.

No conditions for recipients of eternal life. The promise is straightforward; they will never perish.

 

[WIP]

To say "I am mowing the grass" indicates an ongoing action, but there is no sense from the present tense that I'll continue mowing the grass beyond "right now".

My brother-in-law ran in Grandma's Marathon in Duluth, MN for a few years. Weeks before the actual event, when asked what he was triaining for he would often reply, "I am running Grandma's Marathon." However, when he said this it was not a present tense but a future tense. So it would seem that how a phrase is used can definitely affect the tense implied.

 

[WIP]

If there are any verses within the context of ch 10 that says that one of His sheep can become someone else's sheep.

It's not about whose pasture a sheep eats in. It's about who owns the sheep.

In the parable of the lost sheep, Luke 15 and Matthew 18, it speaks about one sheep, which was owned, was lost and how the owner of the sheep will leave the rest to find it. It seems that one can be owned and yet lost. If it is not found, will it not remain lost?

 

[ezra]

I said 'leanings', not 'learnings', lol.


Probably a combination of both.
And as far as formulating beliefs 'from studying the scriptures', what I'm seeing in the hardcore OSAS argument is a failure to consider the whole counsel of the Word, even though many people apparently know the whole counsel of the Word. Or I see a lesser, more vague passage being given precedence over and above the clear passages of scripture. So 'learning' doesn't seem to be the core of the problem for people who study. Though it's certainly true that in some cases people, unlike yourself, believe in OSAS simply because they grew up in a church that did. You feed them the basic scriptures upon which the belief is based and off they go into a life long dogmatic 'I won't listen to anything else' defense of OSAS.

i was raised in the united Methodist Church got saved in a general Baptist church .. when i got saved i had no idea what osas was. but yes i to my conclusion by studying scripture . i have compared scripture with the southern baptist doctrine and done the same with the general baptist . i am ordained through the Gen baptist and i attend a non denom . there is no preaching of osas or once can walk away from it. what is preached is what God requires of us walk the walk not talk the talk be doers of the word not hearers only . if there is a totally false doctrine that i know of. i speak out against it. i am friends with a man who belongs to a catholic church . i have listened to his testimony and i personally feel he is saved. yes there are certain areas i do not agree with him on. , i can assure you i am not leaning toward calvinism

 

[FreeGrace]

My brother-in-law ran in Grandma's Marathon in Duluth, MN for a few years. Weeks before the actual event, when asked what he was triaining for he would often reply, "I am running Grandma's Marathon." However, when he said this it was not a present tense but a future tense. So it would seem that how a phrase is used can definitely affect the tense implied.

My example was the use of the present tense, so I don't know how this future tense applies.

The point about the present tense in Greek is that it does not mean action that goes on continuously. It is action that is occurring now, in reference to the speaker.

 

[FreeGrace]

In the parable of the lost sheep, Luke 15 and Matthew 18, it speaks about one sheep, which was owned, was lost and how the owner of the sheep will leave the rest to find it. It seems that one can be owned and yet lost. If it is not found, will it not remain lost?

Sure. But in the same sense as the prodigal. The father said his son (relationship maintained) was lost and dead. This literally refers to fellowship with the father. And the ultimate result of loss of fellowship with God is physical death (1 Cor 11:30), which is painful (Heb 12:11).

Even when the son was willing to be demoted from son to slave, the father interrupted and showered his repentant son with love and acceptance.

Of course this is just a parable, but Jesus was teaching the principle of a very obnoxious and rebellious son who repented and came back to the father, and the father's response, which speaks to God's unlimited grace.

 

[Nathan]

FreeGrace

Is a person who has salvation written into Gods book of life? When does that happen?