salvation and the loss of it

[FreeGrace]

.....but not out of salvation.

 

[FreeGrace]

so it does not matter to you ? interesting

It matters very much to me. As I've explained.

 

[FreeGrace]

It's solved.
All one has to do is honestly read the scriptures.

Yea!! Finally. What Jesus promised in John 5:24 is that those who believe HAVE eternal life. That means when one FIRST believes is WHEN they FIRST received eternal life.

Then, Jesus promised recipients of eternal life (when they first believed) they will never perish.

Totally solved. Eternal security.

You are lost when you willingly no longer believe in Christ's sacrifice for the remission of sin, because there is no sacrifice available that can cover the sin of rejecting the only sacrifice for sin that exists.

Jesus promises that recipients of eternal life will never perish.

You can do everything else and Christ's sacrifice can and will cover it. But rejecting the sacrifice itself has no sacrifice outside of itself to cover that sin.

Which text in Scripture teaches that Christ did not die for the specific sin of apostasy?

Instead, Scripture teaches that Christ died for sin ONCE FOR ALL. One time for all sin.
Heb 9:12, 26, 10:2, 1012, 14.

 

[FreeGrace]

Show me, or at least explain, how someone who is in Christ can be alienated from God and hostile toward Him.

That's called flat out contradiction. We were placed in Christ so we would not be alienated or hostile toward God.

Question: how much fellowship with Christ is there when a believer is grieving or quenching the Holy Spirit?

Which is why Paul commanded the Ephesian and Galatian believers, and us by extension, to STOP grieving and STOP quenching the Spirit.

 

[FreeGrace]

Yep. Not only that, they say it's 'ok' to walk away because it's not a matter of eternal security.

I've NEVER EVER heard anyone from the eternal security camp say "it's ok to walk away".

Please review post #500 for WHY it's NEVER ok to walk away.

 

[Nathan]

I said this:
"Deceivers lead believers away from the Lord."

No difference regarding one's guaranteed salvation.

But a huge difference in one's spiritual status. By being led away from the Lord, there will be no spiritual growth, no fruit production, no blessings, no reward in eternity.

Oh, and lest we forget from Heb 10:
29 How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?
31 It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

And Heb 12:
11No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it.

God's discipline is not a little slap on the hand. It's painful.

Consider just one of the ways God disciplines His rebellious children:
1 Cor 5:5 - hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.
1 Tim 1:20 - Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme.

Proverbs 7
1 My son, keep my words and treasure up my commandments with you;
2 keep my commandments and live; keep my teaching as the apple of your eye;
3 bind them on your fingers; write them on the tablet of your heart.
4 Say to wisdom, "You are my sister," and call insight your intimate friend,
5 to keep you from the forbidden woman, from the adulteress with her smooth words.
6 For at the window of my house I have looked out through my lattice,
7 and I have seen among the simple, I have perceived among the youths, a young man lacking sense,
8 passing along the street near her corner, taking the road to her house
9 in the twilight, in the evening, at the time of night and darkness.
10 And behold, the woman meets him, dressed as a prostitute, wily of heart.
11 She is loud and wayward; her feet do not stay at home;
12 now in the street, now in the market, and at every corner she lies in wait.
13 She seizes him and kisses him, and with bold face she says to him,
14 "I had to offer sacrifices, and today I have paid my vows;
15 so now I have come out to meet you, to seek you eagerly, and I have found you.
16 I have spread my couch with coverings, colored linens from Egyptian linen;
17 I have perfumed my bed with myrrh, aloes, and cinnamon.
18 Come, let us take our fill of love till morning; let us delight ourselves with love.
19 For my husband is not at home; he has gone on a long journey;
20 he took a bag of money with him; at full moon he will come home."
21 With much seductive speech she persuades him; with her smooth talk she compels him.
22 All at once he follows her, as an ox goes to the slaughter, or as a stag is caught fast
23 till an arrow pierces its liver; as a bird rushes into a snare; he does not know that it will cost him his life.
24 And now, O sons, listen to me, and be attentive to the words of my mouth.
25 Let not your heart turn aside to her ways; do not stray into her paths,
26 for many a victim has she laid low, and all her slain are a mighty throng.
27 Her house is the way to Sheol, going down to the chambers of death.

Beware of false teachers who lead people away from Christ.

Hebrews 2
1 Therefore we must pay much closer attention to what we have heard, lest we drift away from it.
2 For since the message declared by angels proved to be reliable, and every transgression or disobedience received a just retribution,
3 how shall we escape if we neglect such a great salvation? It was declared at first by the Lord, and it was attested to us by those who heard,
4 while God also bore witness by signs and wonders and various miracles and by gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will.

 

[FreeGrace]

There's a BIG difference between sinning out of weakness, even foolishness, all the while clinging to Christ for salvation

The error here is to think in terms of 'clinging to Christ'. That puts the burden of salvation on the "clinger", NOT on Christ.

Jesus was very clear about the FACT that recipients of eternal life will never perish AND the FACT that recipients are secure in His hand (Jn 10:28).

Once we receive His gracious gift of eternal life, there is NOTHING that can remove us from His hand.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Jesus promises that recipients of eternal life will never perish.

And so you continue to ignore that Jesus also said it is those who believe that have eternal life (John 5:24 NASB), not those who don't believe.

 

[Nathan]

Question: how much fellowship with Christ is there when a believer is grieving or quenching the Holy Spirit?

Which is why Paul commanded the Ephesian and Galatian believers, and us by extension, to STOP grieving and STOP quenching the Spirit.

Romans 8
6 For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace.
7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot.
8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.

 

[FreeGrace]

And so you continue to ignore that Jesus also said it is those who believe that have eternal life (John 5:24 NASB), not those who don't believe.

More abusing of the present tense, I see.

When Jesus said that those who believe in the present have eternal life, it means that WHEN one FIRST believed is WHEN they FIRST HAD eternal life.

Or can this be refuted by clear Scripture?

And His promise in John 10:28 is ROCK SOLID. Recipients of eternal life will never perish.

That clearly means that between FIRST believing in Christ and receiving eternal life, there is NOTHING that can cause the recipient to perish, and there is NOTHING that can remove the recipient from His hand.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The error here is to think in terms of 'clinging to Christ'. That puts the burden of salvation on the "clinger", NOT on Christ.

Just post the passage where it says trusting in Christ is equivalent to trying to earn your own salvation. That's what you have to do to prove your point, but as we will see, there is no such passage.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

When Jesus said that those who believe in the present have eternal life, it means that WHEN one FIRST believed is WHEN they FIRST HAD eternal life.

And so you continue to hammer on points that are not even in contention.
Stop playing around and address the fact that Jesus said in John 5:24 NASB that it is those who believe that have eternal life, not those who don't believe.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"The error here is to think in terms of 'clinging to Christ'. That puts the burden of salvation on the "clinger", NOT on Christ."

Just post the passage where it says trusting in Christ is equivalent to trying to earn your own salvation.

Already forgotten your own post???!!!

This, from post #496:
There's a BIG difference between sinning out of weakness, even foolishness, all the while clinging to Christ for salvation, and sinning because you don't want or care about or believe in the gospel anymore. This has been explained to you several times. Do you not see the difference? The latter example of 'sinning'--sinning as the result of unbelief--is what will cause one to no longer be protected by the sacrifice of Christ and, therefore, subject to the wrath of God reserved for His enemies on the last day.

Please note the red words. That's what I was responding to. So please don't change the goalposts.

There is NO equivalency between trusting in Christ and "clinging to Christ". Which is why your views cannot be defended by Scripture.

 

[FreeGrace]

And so you continue to hammer on points that are not even in contention.

Wrong. Jesus promised recipients of eternal life that they will never perish. Your views are that saved people can perish. That is a HUGE discrepancy with what Jesus said.

So that IS in contention.

Stop playing around and address the fact that Jesus said in John 5:24 NASB that it is those who believe that have eternal life, not those who don't believe.

Please read post #510 for how you're abusing the present tense in John 5:24.

And, it's not John 5:24 that covers those who later cease to believe. That comes from John 10:28.

 

[reba]

It matters very much to me. As I've explained.

You may think or want your posts say something different but what you have explained is once a person is saved how they live matters nothing.. the end is eternal life.. IMO the view of this ideal you preach is not the main stream of osas down the lines of 'hyper WOF" a hyper osas... We all have a right to our views...

 

[Nathan]

Is there a difference between abuse of the present tense versus abuse of the past tense?

 

[FreeGrace]

You may think or want your posts say something different but what you have explained is once a person is saved how they live matters nothing.. the end is eternal life

I'm just sorry that my explanation of just HOW MUCH it does matter, even though salvation cannot be lost, apparently wasn't understood.

I NEVER even suggested that it "matters nothing". I showed from Scripture just HOW it matters.

Maybe what Scripture says "matters nothing" to those who prefer to think that misbehavior results in loss of salvation.

.. IMO the view of this ideal you preach is not the main stream of osas down the lines of 'hyper WOF" a hyper osas... We all have a right to our views...

The only thing that counts is the view of the Bible. What is proclaims clearly. Not opinions.

Did Jesus promise recipients of eternal life that they will never perish in John 10:28?
Did Jesus give conditions to recipients of eternal life so that they will never perish in John 10:28?

 

[FreeGrace]

Is there a difference between abuse of the present tense versus abuse of the past tense?

I can show how some abuse the present tense. There is no "past tense" in the Greek, so your question is unanswerable.

 

[FreeGrace]

I can show how some abuse the present tense. There is no "past tense" in the Greek, so your question is unanswerable.

Did Jesus promise recipients of eternal life that they will never perish in John 10:28?
Did Jesus give conditions to recipients of eternal life so that they will never perish in John 10:28?

 

[Nathan]

Did Jesus promise recipients of eternal life that they will never perish in John 10:28?
Did Jesus give conditions to recipients of eternal life so that they will never perish in John 10:28?

No, Jesus promised His sheep they would never perish.

Yes, they had to be His sheep - defined by those who hear His voice and follow Him. (Verse 27).