salvation and the loss of it

[FreeGrace]

We have already gone over the fact that the aorist tense is ambiguous to us who do not use the Greek language.

I've been explaining it all along. So there is no reason to claim it's "ambiguous". It is the tense of simple occurrence. A single action, so to speak. Or of a point in time action.

We have been saved, are being saved, and will be saved - many different angles of the result of Christs work on the Cross.

Yes, there are 3 tenses of 'salvation'. Would you like me to list them?

Point is, a person can only believe because they have been saved - and in that belief they will be saved.

I'd like to point out the contradiction in your statement. If they "have been saved", then they can't "will be saved".

 

[Nathan]

Of course. Which is the point.


And, what is your point? Either way, you're exercising an ability to believe, or reject.

Point is, you are either believing something is true or believing something is false. Your not "believing" or "rejecting" - you believe either way, choosing or rejecting.

 

[FreeGrace]

I was able to do something, but I was not able to seek God.

Well, that's not what Paul said in Rom 1:19-20 -
19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.
20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

No one seeks God unless God first calls them.

From Rom 1:19,20 we know that God has called everyone.

 

[Gregg T]

We have already gone over the fact that the aorist tense is ambiguous to us who do not use the Greek language.

The aorist tense refers to kind/type of action when the Greek mood is subjunctive, imperitive, and infinitive; and does not primarily (if at all) reference time.

The aorist tense refers to the punctiliar time of the action when the Greek mood is indicative, imperfect, or perfect.

Meaning and interpretation of a verb or participle (a verbal substantive) having the aorist tense can be influenced by other things, such as the presence of a main verb or a qualifying phrase or case of the nominative doing or recieving the action, among a multiple of other factors. The aorist tense, when unmodified or without a contextual qualification, refers to either a kind (its primary use) of action or the punctiliar time (its secondary use) of the action.

~

Some Greek interlinear Bibles identify the tense, voice, and mood of verbs; but consulting that type of tool does not guarantee a correct understanding or interpretation.

 

[Nathan]

Well, that's not what Paul said in Rom 1:19-20 -
19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.
20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.


From Rom 1:19,20 we know that God has called everyone.

People are without excuse to know there is a God, not that Christ is their savior. There is a huge difference. Demons believe there is a God.

Only a person who is shown Christ as their savior can choose to believe its true, or believe its false.

Jhn 12:37-40
Though he had done so many signs before them, they still did not believe in him, so that the word spoken by the prophet Isaiah might be fulfilled:
“Lord, who has believed what he heard from us,
and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?”
Therefore they could not believe. For again Isaiah said,
“He has blinded their eyes
and hardened their heart,
lest they see with their eyes,
and understand with their heart, and turn,
and I would heal them.”

Only God gives the power for a person to believe, so that all the glory goes to Him. He gives us faith, we choose to walk in it - or not walk in it.

Rom 8:14
For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.

 

[Nathan]

I've been explaining it all along. So there is no reason to claim it's "ambiguous". It is the tense of simple occurrence. A single action, so to speak. Or of a point in time action.


Yes, there are 3 tenses of 'salvation'. Would you like me to list them?


I'd like to point out the contradiction in your statement. If they "have been saved", then they can't "will be saved".

No contradiction

We are saved from the power of satan, we will be saved from God's wrath. This all comes because He brought us out of bondage. We either believe its true, or choose to believe its false.

 

[FreeGrace]

People are without excuse to know there is a God, not that Christ is their savior. There is a huge difference. Demons believe there is a God.

This is all true. But Rom 1:19 is about what God has taught everyone, which is what John 6:45 is about: It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.

What else could v.45 be referring to, other than what God has "made plain" to everyone?

And, what is the result of listening and learning from the Father? Jesus said they "come to Me".

Only a person who is shown Christ as their savior can choose to believe its true, or believe its false.

Again, I agree fully.

Only God gives the power for a person to believe, so that all the glory goes to Him.

It doesn't take "power" to believe. Or the Bible would have said so. But it didn't say so.

It takes an intellect, with which to make choices about what to believe. Some use their intellect properly (they listened and learned from the Father) and they will come to Jesus. Jesus said so.

He gives us faith, we choose to walk in it - or not walk in it.

Actually, He gives opportunity to believe His promise that eternal life is in His Son. Not everyone takes that opportunity.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"I'd like to point out the contradiction in your statement. If they "have been saved", then they can't "will be saved"."

No contradiction

We are saved from the power of satan, we will be saved from God's wrath.

Ya missed one of the tenses. So I'll share all 3 even though it wasn't requested.

Past tense: we have been saved from the penalty of sin. John 5:24 This is justification.
Present tense: we are being saved from the power of sin. Phil 2:12 This is sanctification.
Future tense: we will be saved from the presence of sin. Rom 8:29 This is glorification.

It is of great importance to understand which tense is being referred to when reading Scripture. To misunderstand which tense leads to false doctrine.

 

[Nathan]

This is all true. But Rom 1:19 is about what God has taught everyone, which is what John 6:45 is about: It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.

What else could v.45 be referring to, other than what God has "made plain" to everyone?

And, what is the result of listening and learning from the Father? Jesus said they "come to Me".


Again, I agree fully.


It doesn't take "power" to believe. Or the Bible would have said so. But it didn't say so.

It takes an intellect, with which to make choices about what to believe. Some use their intellect properly (they listened and learned from the Father) and they will come to Jesus. Jesus said so.


Actually, He gives opportunity to believe His promise that eternal life is in His Son. Not everyone takes that opportunity.

Right, God calls man to Christ - and gives them the ability to accept or reject Him. Man in his fallen state is unable to know right from wrong. The lie of satan was that Adam and Eve would be able to know right from wrong. Since then, man has put his 'idea' of right and wrong above what God says is right and wrong. If man knew what was right, apart from God, then man could do good - yet God says that none is good.

Fallen human intellect is faulty - only through the power of God, those in the Spirit, can choose good. He must choose us before we choose Him. Otherwise its a salvation based on our ability.

Eph 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,

 

[FreeGrace]

Right, God calls man to Christ - and gives them the ability to accept or reject Him. Man in his fallen state is unable to know right from wrong. The lie of satan was that Adam and Eve would be able to know right from wrong. Since then, man has put his 'idea' of right and wrong above what God says is right and wrong. If man knew what was right, apart from God, then man could do good - yet God says that none is good.

No one is intrinsically good. Only the humanity of Jesus Christ is intrinsically good.

Fallen human intellect is faulty - only through the power of God, those in the Spirit, can choose good.

I disagree on both counts. God created mankind with an intellect with which to understand who He is. Recall Rom 1:19,20. It takes an intellect to understand who God is through creation.

Second, the issue isn't about choosing good. It's about believing the promise of God regarding His Son and salvation.

He must choose us before we choose Him. Otherwise its a salvation based on our ability.

He bound everyone over to disobedience so that He may have mercy on them all. Rom 11:32

That's the reason He already chose us all. To have mercy on all. And that was demonstrated by Christ's sacrifice on behalf of everyone, and paying their sin penalty.

Eph 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,

The word "this" in the phrase "this is not your own doing" refers back to "have been saved". iow, we aren't saved by our own doing. We are saved by grace through faith. Salvation is the gift of God.

 

[Nathan]

Salvation is the gift of God, and it comes through the gift of faith - which is something we do not have until it is given to us. It is done this way so no one can boast. Yet some still try to boast in their 'belief' in Christ - as if they had the ability to accept Christ apart from God giving it to them. It is a works based salvation.

Fallen human intellect is rubbish. It is prideful, a work of the devil, to think that fallen human intellect could possibly choose good - much less know what is good.

1Co 2:14
The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

There is great evil in thinking that mankind can somehow do as they please, and choose good when they want - the lie from the beginning.

Gen 3:4-5
But the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

Sometimes I question why people fall for such things, like Eve did, when the serpent opens his mouth and lies spill out. Then I realize that it is because they are helpless - they honestly do not know. I guess all I can do is pray that their eyes are opened.

 

[FreeGrace]

Salvation is the gift of God, and it comes through the gift of faith

Scripture does not describe faith as a gift. Scripture describes salvation and eternal life as gifts of God.

- which is something we do not have until it is given to us. It is done this way so no one can boast. Yet some still try to boast in their 'belief' in Christ

Please provide some evidence anyone who "boasts" in this supposed "ability to believe", as if that's what saves them. I've never seen any such boast, ever.

- as if they had the ability to accept Christ apart from God giving it to them. It is a works based salvation.

Please provide your evidence that this notion has been expressed.

Fallen human intellect is rubbish. It is prideful, a work of the devil, to think that fallen human intellect could possibly choose good - much less know what is good.

That's not what Paul said in Rom 2 about the conscience that is God given:
14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law.
15They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)

 

[Nathan]

Scripture does not describe faith as a gift. Scripture describes salvation and eternal life as gifts of God.


Please provide some evidence anyone who "boasts" in this supposed "ability to believe", as if that's what saves them. I've never seen any such boast, ever.


Please provide your evidence that this notion has been expressed.


That's not what Paul said in Rom 2 about the conscience that is God given:
14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law.
15They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)

Eph 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,

I will not call any names out, but the 'evidence' of boasting is simple - when a person does not give ALL the credit for God saving them - when a person thinks that it was partly their work(this can either be from actions or beliefs).

Act 2:38-29
And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself.”

Jhn 6:44
No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

Jhn 6:65
And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

I'm not sure how much clearer you can get with this.

Doing by nature things required by the law is not doing good. It is showing that the requirements of the law are known. No human will be justified by the works of the law. It is often a point of confusion when someone thinks what they know is good - is actually really good. That is the lie of the devil. Only God is good, so only He knows what is good.

The enemy wants us to think we know whats good so that we can 'do' it and feel 'good' about it. All revolves around pride - boasting.

This is why Christ was manifested - to open the ears of the deaf and the eyes of the blind.

Isa 42:5-9
Thus says God, the LORD,
who created the heavens and stretched them out,
who spread out the earth and what comes from it,
who gives breath to the people on it
and spirit to those who walk in it:
“I am the LORD; I have called you in righteousness;
I will take you by the hand and keep you;
I will give you as a covenant for the people,
a light for the nations,
to open the eyes that are blind,
to bring out the prisoners from the dungeon,
from the prison those who sit in darkness.
I am the LORD; that is my name;
my glory I give to no other,
nor my praise to carved idols.
Behold, the former things have come to pass,
and new things I now declare;
before they spring forth
I tell you of them.”

The person who thinks he see's apart from the working of the Spirit is just fooling himself.

 

[FreeGrace]

Eph 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,

I will not call any names out

This is no different from all the "fake news" networks who keep on citing "anonymous" sources.

but the 'evidence' of boasting is simple - when a person does not give ALL the credit for God saving them - when a person thinks that it was partly their work(this can either be from actions or beliefs).

Why all the unwillingness to simply provide an actual quote or just post #, so anyone interested could see it for themselves? I believe the reason is obvious; no one on this forum has ever made such a boast.

iow, there is no such evidence. Seems to be just another made up claim.

 

[Nathan]

This is no different from all the "fake news" networks who keep on citing "anonymous" sources.


Why all the unwillingness to simply provide an actual quote or just post #, so anyone interested could see it for themselves? I believe the reason is obvious; no one on this forum has ever made such a boast.

iow, there is no such evidence. Seems to be just another made up claim.

You are not reading my posts it seems? I do not have to call out anyone by name to prove that boasting in self is done. Anyone reading through this site, or any other site, can know if a person is boasting or not based on one thing.

Does the person who claims to be a child of God give Him all the glory - or do they claim some of the responsibility? Do people think that it is something they did, or do, that makes them a child? Do people think that it was their ability to believe that makes them a child?

If someone does not give God all the glory for salvation, then they hold a boast in themselves. That is pride - and that is from satan.

 

[FreeGrace]

You are not reading my posts it seems?

I have been, which is why I noted that no examples of what is being claimed have been provided. So I think your claim is empty. That no one boasts as you've claimed. And the lack of any evidence supports my conclusion.

I do not have to call out anyone by name to prove that boasting in self is done.

Of course no one has to do anything. But you've made an outrageous claim that I do not believe to be true. So I asked for some evidence of such boasting. And it's pretty obvious that there isn't any example to provide.

Anyone reading through this site, or any other site, can know if a person is boasting or not based on one thing.

Means nothing. Just generalities. No examples. Empty claim.

Does the person who claims to be a child of God give Him all the glory - or do they claim some of the responsibility?

Does what person do what? I need some examples, or at least one, to support your claim that some people do claim they are responsible for their salvation. But there aren't any, or they'd have been provided.

Do people think that it is something they did, or do, that makes them a child? Do people think that it was their ability to believe that makes them a child?

From my extensive experience, there are NO people who think this or claim this. And the lack of any examples supports my view, not yours.

If someone does not give God all the glory for salvation, then they hold a boast in themselves. That is pride - and that is from satan.

OK. But, again, who does this? I haven't seen anyone do this at all.

 

[Nathan]

I have been, which is why I noted that no examples of what is being claimed have been provided. So I think your claim is empty. That no one boasts as you've claimed. And the lack of any evidence supports my conclusion.


Of course no one has to do anything. But you've made an outrageous claim that I do not believe to be true. So I asked for some evidence of such boasting. And it's pretty obvious that there isn't any example to provide.


Means nothing. Just generalities. No examples. Empty claim.


Does what person do what? I need some examples, or at least one, to support your claim that some people do claim they are responsible for their salvation. But there aren't any, or they'd have been provided.


From my extensive experience, there are NO people who think this or claim this. And the lack of any examples supports my view, not yours.


OK. But, again, who does this? I haven't seen anyone do this at all.

Ok, here is the test. You can use it across the board to see if one boasts or gives all glory to God.

FreeGrace, do you think that you were able to believe before God called you and saved you from the power of sin?

Or do you think that your belief in Christ was what saved you from the power of sin?

Simple test really. If you think that you believed before God called you and saved you from the power of sin, then you think that your belief is what initiated your salvation.

I don't know who truly believes this or not, so I cannot do anything put lay out the test for others.

 

[FreeGrace]

Ok, here is the test.

We'll see that this is no test at all.

You can use it across the board to see if one boasts or gives all glory to God.

Your test fails the test of showing anything.

FreeGrace, do you think that you were able to believe before God called you and saved you from the power of sin?

Acknowledging one's God given intellect with which to understand God's promises is not in ANY WAY a boast. To claim so is just ridiculous.

Or do you think that your belief in Christ was what saved you from the power of sin?

OK, this is a legitimate question, unlike the previous one.

My action of belief did NOT save me. God saved me. 1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

This proves that one's action of believing does NOT save them. It is God who saves those who believe. All my boasting is in God who saves me. Which is what Paul said: Gal 6:14- May I never boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

That, alone, is my boast. Please make note of this.

Simple test really. If you think that you believed before God called you and saved you from the power of sin, then you think that your belief is what initiated your salvation.

No, that is NOT what I think. You repeatedly fail to understand my thinking.

It is your view that is unbiblical; that God saves one before they believe. Many verses have been shown that PROVE that salvation follows the action of belief.

I don't know who truly believes this or not, so I cannot do anything put lay out the test for others.

If there are any who think their action of believing is what saves them, they are totally unbiblical.

What your "test" proved is that your views are unbiblical.

 

[reba]

Man has the ability to believe but not the ability to ' stop believing that makes no sense

 

[Nathan]

We'll see that this is no test at all.


Your test fails the test of showing anything.


Acknowledging one's God given intellect with which to understand God's promises is not in ANY WAY a boast. To claim so is just ridiculous.


OK, this is a legitimate question, unlike the previous one.

My action of belief did NOT save me. God saved me. 1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

This proves that one's action of believing does NOT save them. It is God who saves those who believe. All my boasting is in God who saves me. Which is what Paul said: Gal 6:14- May I never boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

That, alone, is my boast. Please make note of this.


No, that is NOT what I think. You repeatedly fail to understand my thinking.

It is your view that is unbiblical; that God saves one before they believe. Many verses have been shown that PROVE that salvation follows the action of belief.


If there are any who think their action of believing is what saves them, they are totally unbiblical.

What your "test" proved is that your views are unbiblical.

Actually, 'my' test proved exactly what it needed to. You have no proof that they are unbilical - yet you revile me.

Did God bring salvation to Paul before or after He believed in Jesus as the Christ?

Gal 3:2-3
Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?

Let me ask you this FreeGrace, did you receive the Spirit by your own belief, or by the faith God gave you to believe?