salvation and the loss of it

[FreeGrace]

Man has the ability to believe but not the ability to ' stop believing that makes no sense

I agree.

 

[FreeGrace]

Actually, 'my' test proved exactly what it needed to. You have no proof that they are unbilical - yet you revile me.

"revile"?? That's a pretty harsh word. And all for disagreeing with your views?

Did God bring salvation to Paul before or after He believed in Jesus as the Christ?

God brings salvation to everyone who believes.

1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

I notice the order here: God saves those who believe.

However, Titus 2:11 says this: For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people.

So, the offer surely comes before one believes. Otherwise, there would be nothing to believe.

Gal 3:2-3
Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?

Let me ask you this FreeGrace, did you receive the Spirit by your own belief, or by the faith God gave you to believe?

First, I have found no verses that teach that "God gives the faith to believe", so your question is not valid. The Bible does not teach this.

Second, I received the Holy Spirit exactly how Gal 3:2-3 says one will.

The phrase "by hearing with faith" means to hear and believe what is being heard.

I heard the gospel, I believed the gospel, and I received the Holy Spirit. In that order. Biblical.

 

[Nathan]

"revile"?? That's a pretty harsh word. And all for disagreeing with your views?


God brings salvation to everyone who believes.

1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

I notice the order here: God saves those who believe.

However, Titus 2:11 says this: For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people.

So, the offer surely comes before one believes. Otherwise, there would be nothing to believe.


First, I have found no verses that teach that "God gives the faith to believe", so your question is not valid. The Bible does not teach this.

Second, I received the Holy Spirit exactly how Gal 3:2-3 says one will.

The phrase "by hearing with faith" means to hear and believe what is being heard.

I heard the gospel, I believed the gospel, and I received the Holy Spirit. In that order. Biblical.

If you did those things in that order, then you are saying that it was based on your ability to believe that you received the Spirit.

God says that no man seeks after Him.

Rom 3:11
no one understands;
no one seeks for God.

Jesus said the sower is the one who sows the seed - not the soil. Does the soil have to believe before the seed is given to it? Or does belief come after the seed is given?

 

[FreeGrace]

If you did those things in that order, then you are saying that it was based on your ability to believe that you received the Spirit.

I'm saying what Gal 3:2-3 is saying. No different.

There is no such thing as "ability to believe", as in God only gives some pre-chosen people the ability to believe. Everyone has that ability, but many don't exercise it.

God says that no man seeks after Him.

Rom 3:11
no one understands;
no one seeks for God.

That's why God made the first moves:
1. Rom 1:19-20 He revealed His eternal power and divine nature
2. Titus 2:11 He offers salvation to everyone
3. Rom 2:14,15 He created mankind with a conscience

 

[Kidron]

The faith must be present in to be saved through it.
So, from v.5 and v.8 we know that faith precedes regeneration.

Yes, you give God your faith, ONCE, and He saves you because you met His requirement.
He said, "believe and you shall be SAVED.".......
See that "D" on the end of the word SAVED?
This is not a mistranslation from the "original" Koine Greek.
But in fact its the end result of being born again, of being accepted by God.
Its not a process, and its not something that you get after you die, if you live the rest of your life worrying about your sin and your faith.
But rather, the word SAVED, means its DONE.....its FINISHED.......its not "saving"...Its SAVED......as in ALREADY.

 

[reba]

I agree.

So you do agree that man can stop believing ,,, do those unbelieving have salvation?

 

[FreeGrace]

Yes, you give God your faith, ONCE, and He saves you because you met His requirement.

I don't find any verses that say we "give God our faith". What verses support this claim?

[QUTOE]He said, "believe and you shall be SAVED.".......[/QUOTE]
Yes, He surely did.

See that "D" on the end of the word SAVED?

Yes, I sure do.

This is not a mistranslation from the Koine Green.

I didn't think so either.

But in fact its the end result of being born again, of being accepted by God.

Yes, sir.

Its not a process, and its not something that you get if you live the rest of your life worrying about your sin and your faith.
But rather, the word SAVED, means its DONE.....its FINISHED.......its not "saving"...Its SAVED......as in ALREADY.

Yes, sir. Exactly what I believe.

 

[FreeGrace]

So you do agree that man can stop believing ,,, do those unbelieving have salvation?

OK, 2 questions here.

#1 Yes, the Bible is clear about some ceasing to believe. Luke 8:13, 1 Tim 4:1 come to mind.

#2 Depends. Those who never believed don't have salvation. But, those who are recipients of eternal life will never perish. That's Jesus' promise in John 10:28.

 

[reba]

OK, 2 questions here.

#1 Yes, the Bible is clear about some ceasing to believe. Luke 8:13, 1 Tim 4:1 come to mind.

#2 Depends. Those who never believed don't have salvation. But, those who are recipients of eternal life will never perish. That's Jesus' promise in John 10:28.

Really the Scripture dont need cheap double talk .. They hold TRUTH not double talk..
.

Correct. His sheep are believers.

 

[Nathan]

I'm saying what Gal 3:2-3 is saying. No different.

There is no such thing as "ability to believe", as in God only gives some pre-chosen people the ability to believe. Everyone has that ability, but many don't exercise it.


That's why God made the first moves:
1. Rom 1:19-20 He revealed His eternal power and divine nature
2. Titus 2:11 He offers salvation to everyone
3. Rom 2:14,15 He created mankind with a conscience

Exactly, we do not have the ability to believe. That is what Paul is stating in Galatians. We cannot come to God on our own choice, exercising our own will, until He calls us. Then, after He calls us, we can believe - because He gives us that ability. We should not be so presumptuous to think we are more powerful than God - that we can choose when and how we will believe. Many people will die in their sins thinking that they will 'believe' in Jesus when they want to.

Heb 4:6-7
Since therefore it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly received the good news failed to enter because of disobedience, again he appoints a certain day, “Today,” saying through David so long afterward, in the words already quoted,
“Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts.”

 

[FreeGrace]

My answers to your two questions:
OK, 2 questions here.

#1 Yes, the Bible is clear about some ceasing to believe. Luke 8:13, 1 Tim 4:1 come to mind.

#2 Depends. Those who never believed don't have salvation. But, those who are recipients of eternal life will never perish. That's Jesus' promise in John 10:28.

Really the Scripture dont need cheap double talk .. They hold TRUTH not double talk.

I have no idea why this response to my answers, which include Scripture, are being called "cheap double talk".

Explain, please.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"I'm saying what Gal 3:2-3 is saying. No different.

There is no such thing as "ability to believe", as in God only gives some pre-chosen people the ability to believe. Everyone has that ability, but many don't exercise it.

That's why God made the first moves:
1. Rom 1:19-20 He revealed His eternal power and divine nature
2. Titus 2:11 He offers salvation to everyone
3. Rom 2:14,15 He created mankind with a conscience"

Exactly, we do not have the ability to believe.

I can only conclude that my comments aove weren't read. I showed from Scripture that God has already made the so-called "first move" in 3 ways. So everyone has the ability to believe.

I've been asking: where are any verses that teach that man does NOT have the ability to believe?

That is what Paul is stating in Galatians. We cannot come to God on our own choice, exercising our own will, until He calls us.

That's not what Jesus said plainly in John 6:45 - It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.

I believe it's obvious that hearing and learning require volition. They are choices we make. Those who make these choices, to listen and learn, will come to Jesus. Because Jesus said so.

Then, after He calls us, we can believe - because He gives us that ability.

Is this saying that the call includes this ability? That no one who isn't called doesn't have this ability?

We should not be so presumptuous to think we are more powerful than God

Being able to believe has no connection with being "more powerful than God".

Which is an interesting claim, since those who think salvation can be lost means that the individual themselves ARE more powerful than God, because Jesus said "no one" can remove recipients from His or God's hands. Jn 10:28-29

By claiming that one who turns away from Christ loses salvation is tantamount to being "more powerful" than God, because they've snatched themselves from the hand of God. Resulting in loss of salvation.

- that we can choose when and how we will believe.

Who has claimed anything like this? It's God who chooses when one will hear the gospel. And there is no choice at all in "how" we believe.

What is even meant by "how we believe"? That seems to suggest there are several different ways to believe. What are they?

Many people will die in their sins thinking that they will 'believe' in Jesus when they want to.

OK. That is their choice.

 

[Nathan]

I said this:
"I'm saying what Gal 3:2-3 is saying. No different.

There is no such thing as "ability to believe", as in God only gives some pre-chosen people the ability to believe. Everyone has that ability, but many don't exercise it.

That's why God made the first moves:
1. Rom 1:19-20 He revealed His eternal power and divine nature
2. Titus 2:11 He offers salvation to everyone
3. Rom 2:14,15 He created mankind with a conscience"

I can only conclude that my comments aove weren't read. I showed from Scripture that God has already made the so-called "first move" in 3 ways. So everyone has the ability to believe.

I've been asking: where are any verses that teach that man does NOT have the ability to believe?


That's not what Jesus said plainly in John 6:45 - It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.

I believe it's obvious that hearing and learning require volition. They are choices we make. Those who make these choices, to listen and learn, will come to Jesus. Because Jesus said so.


Is this saying that the call includes this ability? That no one who isn't called doesn't have this ability?


Being able to believe has no connection with being "more powerful than God".

Which is an interesting claim, since those who think salvation can be lost means that the individual themselves ARE more powerful than God, because Jesus said "no one" can remove recipients from His or God's hands. Jn 10:28-29

By claiming that one who turns away from Christ loses salvation is tantamount to being "more powerful" than God, because they've snatched themselves from the hand of God. Resulting in loss of salvation.


Who has claimed anything like this? It's God who chooses when one will hear the gospel. And there is no choice at all in "how" we believe.

What is even meant by "how we believe"? That seems to suggest there are several different ways to believe. What are they?


OK. That is their choice.

Everyone believes something. Either they believe what is true, or they believe what is false. When you are presented with something - you have no choice but to believe one way or the other. You cannot choose to not believe - that in itself is a choice. When a person 'chooses not to believe' they are choosing to believe what they have been presented with is false.

Many does not have the ability to choose to believe Jesus is the Christ until God gives them that ability. When man is given that ability, by God, then they have the choice to believe its true - or believe it is false.

Jhn 6:65
And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

 

[dirtfarmer]

Everyone believes something. Either they believe what is true, or they believe what is false. When you are presented with something - you have no choice but to believe one way or the other. You cannot choose to not believe - that in itself is a choice. When a person 'chooses not to believe' they are choosing to believe what they have been presented with is false.

Many does not have the ability to choose to believe Jesus is the Christ until God gives them that ability. When man is given that ability, by God, then they have the choice to believe its true - or believe it is false.

Jhn 6:65
And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

hello Nathan, dirtfarmer here

It is my belief that God gives all the ability to believe in Christ. If that were not true then "whosoever" of John 3:16 would be a lie. Also Roman 1:20 would be untrue. " For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead: so they are without excuse."

 

[FreeGrace]

Everyone believes something.

Well, yes. That's my point. Everyone has this ability that you speak of.

Either they believe what is true, or they believe what is false.

Yes. Either way, they are exercising their ability to decide. That's really the so-called ability.

We all have the ability to choose, or decide.

When you are presented with something - you have no choice but to believe one way or the other.

Actually, we have 2 choices; to believe or not believe.

You cannot choose to not believe - that in itself is a choice.

By "choosing to not believe", one HAS chosen not to believe

When a person 'chooses not to believe' they are choosing to believe what they have been presented with is false.

Again, yes. Either way, they are exercising their ability (freedom) to decide.

Many does not have the ability to choose to believe Jesus is the Christ until God gives them that ability.

Please support this from Scripture. I haven't found any such verses.

When man is given that ability, by God, then they have the choice to believe its true - or believe it is false.

Nope. God gave everyone the freedom to choose. Or ability, as you call it.

Jhn 6:65
And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

A verse, that is in context with this verse tells us exactly who will come to Jesus;
John 6:45 - It is written in the Prophets: 'They will all be taught by God.' Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me

 

[reba]

My answers to your two questions:
OK, 2 questions here.

#1 Yes, the Bible is clear about some ceasing to believe. Luke 8:13, 1 Tim 4:1 come to mind.

#2 Depends. Those who never believed don't have salvation. But, those who are recipients of eternal life will never perish. That's Jesus' promise in John 10:28.

I have no idea why this response to my answers, which include Scripture, are being called "cheap double talk".

Explain, please.

The fact of Scripture is included in your replies has zero to do with your verbiage of double talk...
IF one ceases to believe they must have believed at one time .. IN what i read from you, a believer can turn away, therefore not be a believer; as still fall under the catagory of believer
No place in John 10:28 does it say those who never believed .. those are your words not scripture scripture says this ..Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

 

[Nathan]

hello Nathan, dirtfarmer here

It is my belief that God gives all the ability to believe in Christ. If that were not true then "whosoever" of John 3:16 would be a lie. Also Roman 1:20 would be untrue. " For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead: so they are without excuse."

He does, He is not willing that anyone should perish. No one in this life will die without God calling them to believe. Faith in God begins with God first calling, then us responding by believing. Today if you hear His voice do not harden your hearts. Presumption is to think that you can reject God, and still believe when you want to. We see how that turned out for Pharaoh

Likewise, Esau thought that the birthright was useless to him at the time - sold it - then afterwards decided he really wanted it - but did not get it back. He desperately wanted it later on, but he was rejected.

.
Heb 12:15-17
See to it that no one fails to obtain the grace of God; that no “root of bitterness” springs up and causes trouble, and by it many become defiled; that no one is sexually immoral or unholy like Esau, who sold his birthright for a single meal. For you know that afterward, when he desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no chance to repent, though he sought it with tears.

 

[FreeGrace]

The fact of Scripture is included in your replies has zero to do with your verbiage of double talk...
IF one ceases to believe they must have believed at one time .. IN what i read from you, a believer can turn away, therefore not be a believer; as still fall under the catagory of believer

No, there is no double talk. When a person believes, they receive eternal life. And Jesus promises that recipients of eternal life will never perish.

If continuance of believing were required in order to never perish, then Jesus could not have made the promise He did in Jn 10:28.

No place in John 10:28 does it say those who never believed

Why would any contingency, requirement or condition need to be mentioned, since the ONLY CONDITION for never perishing is to receive eternal life.

iow, once a recipient, will never perish.

Apparently your read of Jn 10:28 is vastly different from mine. Mine recognizes the very plain and straightforward language of Jesus' promise.

His promise means that every recipient of eternal life will never perish. How is that not eternal security, based only on what He does and promises?

.. those are your words not scripture scripture says this ..Joh 10:28

Then please explain what Jesus was promising those He gives eternal life. The recipients.

And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Here's the verse. It is very straightforward.

Jesus gives eternal life to recipients of eternal life.
Recipients will never perish.

If that is not what Jesus clearly meant, please explain the promise of never perishing and what is required in order to never perish.

 

[Nathan]

Jhn 10:27-28
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.

Jesus gives eternal life to His sheep - who follow Him - who are in His hand.

Those who are not in Christ do not have eternal life - no matter what they have believed.

1Jo 5:11-12
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.

 

[reba]

the condition is believing right? According to how i read what you say non believers have the same eternal life as believers