salvation and the loss of it

[FreeGrace]

Jhn 10:27-28
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.

Jesus gives eternal life to His sheep - who follow Him - who are in His hand.

No, His sheep are those who have "entered through Me" from Jn 10:9.

Those who are not in Christ do not have eternal life - no matter what they have believed.

The first statement is absolutely biblical. But not the second one. Jesus promised recipients of eternal life that they will never perish.

So, it does matter very much what one believes. If they believe in Christ, He gives them eternal life. And promises that they will never perish.

1Jo 5:11-12
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.

Yes, sir.

 

[Nathan]

No, His sheep are those who have "entered through Me" from Jn 10:9.


The first statement is absolutely biblical. But not the second one. Jesus promised recipients of eternal life that they will never perish.

So, it does matter very much what one believes. If they believe in Christ, He gives them eternal life. And promises that they will never perish.


Yes, sir.

I am not sure how you disagree with the plain words that Jesus said in John 10:27????? You say His sheep do not follow Him?????

The second statement I made is that you do not have eternal life, no matter what you believe, if you are not in Christ. You agree with 1 John 5:11-12 right? That is what it says.

 

[FreeGrace]

the condition is believing right?

No, that is not right. That's not what Jesus promised to recipients of eternal life. There are NO CONDITIONS for recipients of eternal life.

Or, please show what conditions Jesus added in John 10:28 when He promised that "they will never perish".

According to how i read what you say non believers have the same eternal life as believers

Absolutely NOT. You're making the same mistake as another poster who assumes that a believer who ceases to believe returns to the status of an unbeliever.

If that were true, then why doesn't the Bible say anything about being:
un-marked
un-sealed
un-saved
un-justified
un-born?

 

[FreeGrace]

I am not sure how you disagree with the plain words that Jesus said in John 10:27?????

There is NOTHING in v.27 that conditions Jesus' promise in v.28. The promise is based on being a recipient of eternal life.

You say His sheep do not follow Him?????

Those recipients who later cease to believe.

The second statement I made is that you do not have eternal life, no matter what you believe, if you are not in Christ.

It is wrong to assume that one who has been marked in Him with a seal, the Holy Spirit, can be:
un-marked
un-sealed.

Until these things can be proven from Scripture, you have no point.

You agree with 1 John 5:11-12 right? That is what it says.

It does not say what you are assuming, that anyone who has been marked in Christ with a seal, the Holy Spirit can be un-marked or un-sealed.

The promise of John 10:28 is absolutely clear; recipients of eternal life will never perish.

 

[reba]

No, that is not right. That's not what Jesus promised to recipients of eternal life. There are NO CONDITIONS for recipients of eternal life.

Or, please show what conditions Jesus added in John 10:28 when He promised that "they will never perish".


Absolutely NOT. You're making the same mistake as another poster who assumes that a believer who ceases to believe returns to the status of an unbeliever.

If that were true, then why doesn't the Bible say anything about being:
un-marked
un-sealed
un-saved
un-justified
un-born?

Or, please show what conditions Jesus added in John 10:28 when He promised that "they will never perish".Never said Jesus did i said you added words. these words
#2 Depends. salvation Those who never believed don't have. But, those who are recipients of eternal life will never perish. That's Jesus' promise in John 10:28.

 

[reba]

my computer is going goofy

 

[Nathan]

There is NOTHING in v.27 that conditions Jesus' promise in v.28. The promise is based on being a recipient of eternal life.


Those recipients who later cease to believe.


It is wrong to assume that one who has been marked in Him with a seal, the Holy Spirit, can be:
un-marked
un-sealed.

Until these things can be proven from Scripture, you have no point.


It does not say what you are assuming, that anyone who has been marked in Christ with a seal, the Holy Spirit can be un-marked or un-sealed.

The promise of John 10:28 is absolutely clear; recipients of eternal life will never perish.

You might want to separate verse 27 from 28, but I assure you that Jesus said them at the same time - and they describe the same thing.

Jesus was very clear -

Jhn 10:27-28
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.

His sheep hear His voice, He knows them, they follow Him, He gives them eternal life, they will never perish, and they will not be taken from His hand. Simple. Straight forward. If you do not fit the above description, then as Jesus said -

Jhn 10:25-26
Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father’s name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep.

1Jo 5:10-12
Whoever believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. Whoever does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has borne concerning his Son. And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.

 

[FreeGrace]

Or, please show what conditions Jesus added in John 10:28 when He promised that "they will never perish".

That was my question for you. I believe there are NO conditions to recipients of eternal life.

 

[reba]

#2 Depends. Those who never believed don't have salvation. But, those who are recipients of eternal life will never perish. That's Jesus' promise in John 10:28.

That was my question for you. I believe there are NO conditions to recipients of eternal life.

the computer was jumping all over the place.. ..showing it's Pentecostal side i guess
You state there are no conditions .. so one according to you does not have to believe correct.. ?

 

[FreeGrace]

You might want to separate verse 27 from 28, but I assure you that Jesus said them at the same time - and they describe the same thing.

I've never tried to separate them. But v.27 are NOT conditions for never perishing. He wa describing His sheep in v.27. Not listing conditions for how to never perish.

The ONLY condition for never perishing is to be a recipient of eternal life.

Jesus was very clear -

He sure was.

Jhn 10:27-28
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.

His sheep hear His voice, He knows them, they follow Him, He gives them eternal life, they will never perish, and they will not be taken from His hand. Simple. Straight forward. If you do not fit the above description, then as Jesus said -

Jhn 10:25-26
Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father’s name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep.

1Jo 5:10-12
Whoever believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. Whoever does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has borne concerning his Son. And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.

John 10:28 is about eternal security.
John 10:25-26 describes who His sheep are. Not conditions for being His sheep.
1 John 5:10-12 says nothing about losing salvation.

 

[FreeGrace]

You state there are no conditions .. so one according to you does not have to believe correct.. ?

Not at all.

There are no conditions for recipients of eternal life. I hope that's clear. There is ONE conditions for being a recipient of eternal life; to believe in Christ. Those are the recipients of eternal life; believers.

The point of John 10:28 is that being a recipient of eternal life has no conditions for never perishing.

 

[Nathan]

I've never tried to separate them. But v.27 are NOT conditions for never perishing. He wa describing His sheep in v.27. Not listing conditions for how to never perish.

The ONLY condition for never perishing is to be a recipient of eternal life.


He sure was.


John 10:28 is about eternal security.
John 10:25-26 describes who His sheep are. Not conditions for being His sheep.
1 John 5:10-12 says nothing about losing salvation.

Actually, Jesus was describing those who do have eternal life in verse 27. So while they are not conditions, they are the state of those who have eternal life. If you do not meet that state, then like He spoke about in verse 25-26, you are not His sheep, and you do not have eternal life.

You seem to be stuck on loosing salvation, I am simply showing you where salvation is found. It is in Christ alone, through faith alone. If you do not have the Son, you do not have life.

 

[FreeGrace]

Actually, Jesus was describing those who do have eternal life in verse 27.

That's what I said.

So while they are not conditions, they are the state of those who have eternal life.

The point remains; recipients of eternal life will never perish. That is eternal security stated as plainly as possible.

If you do not meet that state, then like He spoke about in verse 25-26, you are not His sheep, and you do not have eternal life.

The issue is that recipients of eternal life will never perish.

You seem to be stuck on loosing salvation

On the contrary, I'm stuck on eternal security.

I am simply showing you where salvation is found.

I know precisely where salvation is found. Acts 4:12
Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved."

It is in Christ alone, through faith alone. If you do not have the Son, you do not have life.

Of course. I've never said otherwise.

The argument, of course, is different. That one who has been marked in Christ with a seal the Holy Spirit, can be -
un-marked
un-sealed
un-saved.

No verses have been shown that teach this un-doing.

 

[reba]

Not at all.

There are no conditions for recipients of eternal life. I hope that's clear. There is ONE conditions for being a recipient of eternal life; to believe in Christ. Those are the recipients of eternal life; believers.

The point of John 10:28 is that being a recipient of eternal life has no conditions for never perishing.

Believing is not a condition according to you asking again to make sure i understand

 

[Nathan]

That's what I said.


The point remains; recipients of eternal life will never perish. That is eternal security stated as plainly as possible.


The issue is that recipients of eternal life will never perish.


On the contrary, I'm stuck on eternal security.


I know precisely where salvation is found. Acts 4:12
Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved."


Of course. I've never said otherwise.

The argument, of course, is different. That one who has been marked in Christ with a seal the Holy Spirit, can be -
un-marked
un-sealed
un-saved.

No verses have been shown that teach this un-doing.

Only that those with the mark, with the seal, and who are saved describe the ones in Christ. If you are not in Christ, if you are not one of His sheep, if you do not follow Him - you do not have eternal life. Simple.

If you do not have the Son you do not have life. Do you believe that you can have life if you are not one of His sheep who follow Him? Do you think that Jesus was serious about giving His sheep eternal life, but not serious that they would follow Him?

Jhn 10:27
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.

Do you believe the underlined statement is true?

 

[FreeGrace]

Believing is not a condition according to you asking again to make sure i understand

Incorrect. One must believe in order to receive eternal life. I've never said otherwise.

Recipients of eternal life will never perish. That is Jesus' promise in Jn 10:28.

 

[reba]

So believing is a condition in your opinion? FreeGrace

 

[FreeGrace]

Only that those with the mark, with the seal, and who are saved describe the ones in Christ.

Of course.

If you are not in Christ, if you are not one of His sheep, if you do not follow Him - you do not have eternal life. Simple.

Such people NEVER believed. The Bible calls them unbelievers.

If you do not have the Son you do not have life.

Right. Unbelievers. Never believed.

Do you believe that you can have life if you are not one of His sheep who follow Him?

Trick question. His sheep, as opposed to those not His sheep, became His sheep by "entering through Him", per v.9. This is a metaphor or figure of speech for believing in Him. Those who believe receive eternal life. And will never perish.

Do you think that Jesus was serious about giving His sheep eternal life, but not serious that they would follow Him?

Doesn't matter. Jesus is omniscient and knows full well who will not continue to follow Him. But His promise still stands.

 

[FreeGrace]

So believing is a condition in your opinion? FreeGrace

It is a condition for the RECEPTION of eternal life. And once eternal life is received, the recipients will never perish.

Jesus promised eternal life to recipients of eternal life.

 

[reba]

Where is the scripture passage that says that ?