Salvation by faith alone/only?

[Grubal Muruch]

I have clearly stated that I agree with this.


I have clearly stated that I agee with this, too.


We agree!!!

Now, for the tricky part: Do you believe this statement:

6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.â€[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

If you do believe this statement, you are agreeing that "thing God looks at" in awarding eternal life is "good works", even if we otherwise agree on the things above.

If you do not believe this statement, how are you trusting the inerrancy of scripture?

Scripture

Yes I believe what it's saying but, I disagree with your interpretation of that Scripture. You believe it's saying that "works" are the path to eternal life. I on the other hand say, God's Grace through Christ's work on the cross is the path to eternal life. Paul isn't contradicting other Scripture, he's only expressing the attributes of those who have been born again Spiritually, and are going to inherit eternal life. As opposed to the attributes of those who follow after their own way of disobedient's and therefore, are excluded from eternal life (in other words, the unsaved)

 

[Grubal Muruch]

I will repeat, I am NOT denying the plain meaning of the text. It's plain enough to me, but you seem to be trying to create a principle by taking the text out of it's context.

So how can we obey the law, for if we fail in one point, we fail in all? There is only one way, and that is through faith (which you consistantly want to leave out of the equation.)

Since Paul is speaking of faith throughout, he doesn't suddenly drop faith from the equation. Through faith we have the righteousness of Christ imputed to us. We can only "obey the law" when we put on the righteousness of Christ by believing in Him.

I did support what I claimed with scripture concerning the Judgment Seat of Christ. The very scripture presented in your article. I'm assuming nothing, just pointing you to the verses that speak of the Judgment Seat of Christ. If you want to discuss the Judgment, you'll have to let go of your one verse long enough to delve into the subject.

AMEN AND AMEN BROTHER...We have Christ's righteousness imputed to us therefore, we inherit eternal life through His perfect righteousness placed upon us through faith and His sacrifice on the cross for our sins. You answered Drew's question perfectly. AMEN!!!!!

 

[francisdesales]

Thanks for joining. I was beginning to feel quite outnumbered .

In all seriousness, this is indeed an important issue, so I hope no one gets the impression that this is about "numbers on each side" of the issue.

Welcome to my world! I was waiting for you earlier!

Here we go again. Let's see what we got this time around...

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

With all due respect, glorydaz is trying to convey the idea that, those who were bitten by the snake had to do something in order to be healed. Hence, they had to look upon the "bronze serpent." Much like, if a person desires to have God's forgiveness and mercy, he must first (do something) and that is, believe... It's symbolic you see ??

Understood, sir.

And those people subsequently died before reaching the Promised Land, which is ALSO symbolic of "OSAS" not being true. "Looking on the Lord Jesus" does not automatically bring one into the Promised Land - heaven.

It appears that we agree on something - that forgiveness and mercy depends upon belief. However, as i stated to Glorydaz, I believe we are speaking about two different "salvations". I am speaking of being saved onto eternal life. One cannot be saved for heaven unless their faith is working in love.

Do you disagree with Paul? That faith, even a LOT of faith, is nothing without love?

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

I don't think so, Joe.

We know the water from the rock was symbolic of the LIVING WATER, and the manna, the BREAD OF LIFE. We know this is the same because Jesus, when speaking to Nicodemus about being born of the Spirit, said...
A man must be born again to enter the kingdom of God...whosoever believeth in Him.

Jesus in this very passage continues that one must believe - in the present tense - not believe "a long time ago". In addition, Jesus is not denying here that faith and works are separate. One must be careful in presuming that if only faith is mentioned, that works are necessarily ignored or not included. The same works in reverse... When the Scriptures note that one is saved by works (such as James or Timothy), that it does not reject faith!

By citing John 3, you must consider that Jesus is not making a mutually exclusive statement, since He says that one who is born of water and the Spirit - NOT faith - will enter the Kingdom. It is only later that Jesus speaks of faith (and good deeds!) in regards to eternal life. Note carefully that Jesus is not just speaking of "faith in me", but also points out that works are also required(v 20-21).

Clearly, no one is excluding faith. In addition, love is not being excluded, since Jesus in many other passages speaks of love and obedience to God as the requirement for entering the Kingdom (such as the rich young man). In THOSE passages, we do not exclude faith, either. Thus, we must take what Jesus says altogether and note that we are not saved by faith or works alone, but by God's grace that brings forth BOTH faith and works.

Regards

 

[glorydaz]

Understood, sir.

And those people subsequently died before reaching the Promised Land, which is ALSO symbolic of "OSAS" not being true. "Looking on the Lord Jesus" does not automatically bring one into the Promised Land - heaven.

It appears that we agree on something - that forgiveness and mercy depends upon belief. However, as i stated to Glorydaz, I believe we are speaking about two different "salvations". I am speaking of being saved onto eternal life. One cannot be saved for heaven unless their faith is working in love.

Do you disagree with Paul? That faith, even a LOT of faith, is nothing without love?

Regards

It's a picture of salvation. In the case of the children in the wilderness it was salvation from the poison. Just as manna was a picture of the bread of life, and water from the rock was to depict the living water, and the sacrifices that represented Christ.

These were an example and shadow of heavenly things. Not to be dismissed as a different salvation, but that we could clearly see and understand.

Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.

There's no disagreement with Paul. With Christ in us, we have love. With the Spirit in us, we have fruit. There is no such thing as faith without love if it's the faith of Christ Jesus in us. I'm sure you'd agree with me on that, Joe.

 

[glorydaz]

Jesus in this very passage continues that one must believe - in the present tense - not believe "a long time ago". In addition, Jesus is not denying here that faith and works are separate. One must be careful in presuming that if only faith is mentioned, that works are necessarily ignored or not included. The same works in reverse... When the Scriptures note that one is saved by works (such as James or Timothy), that it does not reject faith!

By citing John 3, you must consider that Jesus is not making a mutually exclusive statement, since He says that one who is born of water and the Spirit - NOT faith - will enter the Kingdom. It is only later that Jesus speaks of faith (and good deeds!) in regards to eternal life. Note carefully that Jesus is not just speaking of "faith in me", but also points out that works are also required(v 20-21).

Clearly, no one is excluding faith. In addition, love is not being excluded, since Jesus in many other passages speaks of love and obedience to God as the requirement for entering the Kingdom (such as the rich young man). In THOSE passages, we do not exclude faith, either. Thus, we must take what Jesus says altogether and note that we are not saved by faith or works alone, but by God's grace that brings forth BOTH faith and works.

Regards

You said, "One must be careful in presuming that if only faith is mentioned, that works are necessarily ignored or not included."

I agree, we must be careful that one doesn't ignore works. But then, how can they be ignored when God has ordained that those who have been given a new heart will manifest good deeds? Good deeds are a natural result of being filled with the Spirit. It's actually the fruit of the Spirit that one sees. If there is no fruit, then the faith man claims is not really faith at all as we use the word. Fruit is the thing men can look at to know we are saved.

God, of course, can see into our heart. He knows if we truly believe, truly repent, and have had our heart of stone circumcised.

And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Drew says-----
Do you believe this statement:

God “will repay each person according to what they have done To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life

If you do believe this statement, you are agreeing that "thing God looks at" in awarding eternal life is "good works", even if we otherwise agree on the things above.

If you do not believe this statement, how are you trusting the inerrancy of scripture?


Drew says-----God “will repay each person according to what they have done To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life

Grubal-----Yes, these folks are those who have received Christ as Lord and Savior through faith. And as someone else here said, "have received the "righteousness" of Christ...Therefore are able to persist in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, He will give eternal life (to these believers)

Drew said-----If you do believe this statement, you are agreeing that "thing God looks at" in awarding eternal life is "good works", even if we otherwise agree on the things above.

Grubal----I have to "disagree" with your premise, due to the fact that, God gives eternal life based upon the sacrifice of His Son for the sins of the world. Based on John 3:16,"For God so loved the world that He gave His only Son that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life." Therefore, eternal life is based first on Christ, second, on the work of the Holy Spirit...third on our faith...The "only" thing God rewards us for, is those things we did (through the Holy Spirit within) For those things we get rewards (at His discretion) It's not eternal life we get, it's works done after Salvation. Eternal life we are given when we receive Christ...

Drew said-----If you do not believe this statement, how are you trusting the inerrancy of scripture?

Grubal-----There's no discrepancy or contradiction in those Scriptures, only human error in interpretation and context...

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Understood, sir.

And those people subsequently died before reaching the Promised Land, which is ALSO symbolic of "OSAS" not being true. "Looking on the Lord Jesus" does not automatically bring one into the Promised Land - heaven.

It appears that we agree on something - that forgiveness and mercy depends upon belief. However, as i stated to Glorydaz, I believe we are speaking about two different "salvations". I am speaking of being saved onto eternal life. One cannot be saved for heaven unless their faith is working in love.

Do you disagree with Paul? That faith, even a LOT of faith, is nothing without love?

Regards

Fran says-----And those people subsequently died before reaching the Promised Land, which is ALSO symbolic of "OSAS" not being true. "Looking on the Lord Jesus" does not automatically bring one into the Promised Land - heaven.

Grubal-----It's true that, "intellectual acknowledgement" (the devils believe and tremble) is not the same as placing one's total faith in the shed blood and resurrection of the perfect sacrifice, that being, Jesus Christ the Son of God. But also, there's no rule that states that, symbolic reference has to include any and all "particulars" in any given usage, to stress a point...Therefore, the "two" parts of significant's are related to, "the bronze serpent,"(representing Christ on the cross) and the need for the Jews to do something, in order to get healed from the bite of the serpents(representing mans faith...)

Fran says-----It appears that we agree on something - that forgiveness and mercy depends upon belief. However, as i stated to Glorydaz, I believe we are speaking about two different "salvations". I am speaking of being saved onto eternal life. One cannot be saved for heaven unless their faith is working in love.

Grubal-----Allow me to restate your assumption. "One cannot receive eternal life unless their faith is placed in "His" Love." Therein, lies the difference...

Fran says-----Do you disagree with Paul? That faith, even a LOT of faith, is nothing without love?

Grubal----We must first place our faith, then love, long suffering, kindness, gentleness, etc. follow. Due to the indwelling Spirit who resides within the believer...

 

[francisdesales]

There's no disagreement with Paul. With Christ in us, we have love. With the Spirit in us, we have fruit. There is no such thing as faith without love if it's the faith of Christ Jesus in us. I'm sure you'd agree with me on that, Joe.

I wish it was that simple. However, there are other forces at work in me besides the love of Christ. I would direct you, for example, to the variety of discussions from Paul or James that reminds Christians that they need to persevere. Can you think of a reason that Paul would be so concerned that Christians would not back-slide or chase after works of the flesh IF the regenerated man was incapable of doing anything BUT love?

Even the regenerated can return to the vomit of their former life. Even after knowing what God has in store for us and witnessing the Love of God through Christ - men can and DO have the freedom to reject God. We PRESUME that someone would not turn away, but even Jesus Himself stated that some with faith fall away later. Some make shipwrecks of their faith.

And frankly, if faith and love were inseparable, what would be the NEED for Paul to tell us that even faith to move MOUNTAINS is "nothing" without love?

No, my friend. Faith does not necessarily lead to works of love when we are tempted, in difficult straights or when we are confronted with residual "works of the flesh", vices that seem to stick to us even after we were "saved".

This is why Jesus says we must faithfully follow Him - as an ongoing WALK.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

You said, "One must be careful in presuming that if only faith is mentioned, that works are necessarily ignored or not included."

I agree, we must be careful that one doesn't ignore works. But then, how can they be ignored when God has ordained that those who have been given a new heart will manifest good deeds?

It doesn't follow that one will continue in good deeds for their entire life. God will turn away from the once-righteous if they turn to wicked deeds. Thus, the call to be on alert, to continue to carry our cross, to REMAIN in faithful trusting in God and following His Way.

Good deeds are a natural result of being filled with the Spirit.

So is faith... What's the difference between faith and works if BOTH come from God? Why narrow things down to "faith alone", when a momumental amount of faith is nothing without love?

It's actually the fruit of the Spirit that one sees. If there is no fruit, then the faith man claims is not really faith at all as we use the word.

The Bible has a number of definitions of faith. Thus, "faith alone" is meaningless, since it is not really alone, when the definition is broadened to include the entire Christian life of faith, hope, love, honor of neighbor, etc....

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Fran says-----And those people subsequently died before reaching the Promised Land, which is ALSO symbolic of "OSAS" not being true. "Looking on the Lord Jesus" does not automatically bring one into the Promised Land - heaven.

Grubal-----It's true that, "intellectual acknowledgement" (the devils believe and tremble) is not the same as placing one's total faith in the shed blood and resurrection of the perfect sacrifice, that being, Jesus Christ the Son of God. But also, there's no rule that states that, symbolic reference has to include any and all "particulars" in any given usage, to stress a point...Therefore, the "two" parts of significant's are related to, "the bronze serpent,"(representing Christ on the cross) and the need for the Jews to do something, in order to get healed from the bite of the serpents(representing mans faith...)

And so, simply put, faith alone does not save. Faith of a certain degree does not save. Only a particular degree of faith, one that shows forth works, is salvific. ALL sorts of faith do not save, thus, faith 'alone' cannot be salvific.

Fran says-----It appears that we agree on something - that forgiveness and mercy depends upon belief. However, as i stated to Glorydaz, I believe we are speaking about two different "salvations". I am speaking of being saved onto eternal life. One cannot be saved for heaven unless their faith is working in love.

Grubal-----Allow me to restate your assumption. "One cannot receive eternal life unless their faith is placed in "His" Love." Therein, lies the difference...

And let's continue - and that love of God leads to love of neighbor...

Fran says-----Do you disagree with Paul? That faith, even a LOT of faith, is nothing without love?

Grubal----We must first place our faith, then love, long suffering, kindness, gentleness, etc. follow. Due to the indwelling Spirit who resides within the believer...

It follows SOMETIMES. The indwelling Spirit does not override our free will. The Spirit gives us a new POTENTIAL, a new principle that we now have the ABILITY to follow. We can share in the divine nature by forgiving and loving our enemies. But this does NOT come "automatically", let me assure you...

Regards

 

[Drew]

ISo how can we obey the law, for if we fail in one point, we fail in all?

Why ask me this?

Who penned the following words anyway, Drew or Paul?:

13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.

You are arguing with Paul, not me. So if you are right - how do you explain this statement from Paul?

 

[Grubal Muruch]

And so, simply put, faith alone does not save. Faith of a certain degree does not save. Only a particular degree of faith, one that shows forth works, is salvific. ALL sorts of faith do not save, thus, faith 'alone' cannot be salvific.



And let's continue - and that love of God leads to love of neighbor...



It follows SOMETIMES. The indwelling Spirit does not override our free will. The Spirit gives us a new POTENTIAL, a new principle that we now have the ABILITY to follow. We can share in the divine nature by forgiving and loving our enemies. But this does NOT come "automatically", let me assure you...

Regards

Fran says-----And so, simply put, faith alone does not save. Faith of a certain degree does not save. Only a particular degree of faith, one that shows forth works, is salvific. ALL sorts of faith do not save, thus, faith 'alone' cannot be salvific.

Grubal-----The kind of faith that begins the process of our salvation, does not, "show forth works" as you say. That particular kind (of which you speak) only comes after one is "born-again Spiritually" due to the presence of the Holy Spirit within...The faith we come to God with is "simple human faith."

Fran says-----It follows SOMETIMES. The indwelling Spirit does not override our free will. The Spirit gives us a new POTENTIAL, a new principle that we now have the ABILITY to follow. We can share in the divine nature by forgiving and loving our enemies. But this does NOT come "automatically", let me assure you...

Grubal----I concur with what you say here. It's logical and honest. We still have our physical body and we are still susceptible to sin. It's not an easy task to fight the world, the flesh, and the devil...There's constant warfare going on. I go along with you on this...Well said...

 

[glorydaz]

I wish it was that simple. However, there are other forces at work in me besides the love of Christ. I would direct you, for example, to the variety of discussions from Paul or James that reminds Christians that they need to persevere. Can you think of a reason that Paul would be so concerned that Christians would not back-slide or chase after works of the flesh IF the regenerated man was incapable of doing anything BUT love?

Even the regenerated can return to the vomit of their former life. Even after knowing what God has in store for us and witnessing the Love of God through Christ - men can and DO have the freedom to reject God. We PRESUME that someone would not turn away, but even Jesus Himself stated that some with faith fall away later. Some make shipwrecks of their faith.

And frankly, if faith and love were inseparable, what would be the NEED for Paul to tell us that even faith to move MOUNTAINS is "nothing" without love?

No, my friend. Faith does not necessarily lead to works of love when we are tempted, in difficult straights or when we are confronted with residual "works of the flesh", vices that seem to stick to us even after we were "saved".

This is why Jesus says we must faithfully follow Him - as an ongoing WALK.

Regards

It really is that simple, Joe, as Jesus makes clear when He says this...

And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

I don't believe that Jesus said some "with faith" will fall away, rather He refers to some that follow after for a short time and then turn back. If they turn back, they were never with us. We're exhorted to keep up the fight because our walk will be hindered not that our salvation will be lost.....his works will be "burned up, but he, himself will be saved." I realize this is something you will continue to deny, but I won't be persuaded by anything but what I see from the Word. Not that we can't still discuss it, but I see the Word as being very clear on this matter.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

It really is that simple, Joe, as Jesus makes clear when He says this...


I don't believe that Jesus said some "with faith" will fall away, rather He refers to some that follow after for a short time and then turn back. If they turn back, they were never with us. We're exhorted to keep up the fight because our walk will be hindered not that our salvation will be lost.....his works will be "burned up, but he, himself will be saved." I realize this is something you will continue to deny, but I won't be persuaded by anything but what I see from the Word. Not that we can't still discuss it, but I see the Word as being very clear on this matter.

Very Good!!!

 

[glorydaz]

Why ask me this?

Who penned the following words anyway, Drew or Paul?:

13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.

You are arguing with Paul, not me. So if you are right - how do you explain this statement from Paul?

What you've construed from Paul's words is incorrect, as you would know if you'd bother reading what else Paul says on the subject. There is only One who has obeyed the law...only One who is righteous. Therefore His righteousness is imputed to us when we BELIEVE.

Move on from chapter two and, if you wouldn't consider it a metaphor, you'd understand exactly what Paul is saying.

To him that believeth.....his FAITH is counted for righteousness (not his works).

Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

"8Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin."

16Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.

23Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;

24But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

25Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

I suggest you need some spiritual understanding on this matter. The Lord is the only one who can make you see, because obviously no man will be able to do it.

 

[Drew]

What you've construed from Paul's words is incorrect, as you would know if you'd bother reading what else Paul says on the subject.

The question is not "what else did Paul say"?

The question is what is Paul trying to tell us when he penned these particular words:

13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.

You are evading a challenge which I suggest you cannot take on, and maintain your position.

Its true that Paul wrote lots of other things. But he wrote this statement as well!!!

So what does he mean by it glorydaz?

Its a simple, clear question. So please answer it. I am not asking you what else he wrote, I am asking you what this particular statement means.

 

[Free]

Is this even about the law? I thought it was about good works...

 

[Grubal Muruch]

The question is not "what else did Paul say"?

The question is what is Paul trying to tell us when he penned these particular words:

13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.

You are evading a challenge which I suggest you cannot take on, and maintain your position.

Its true that Paul wrote lots of other things. But he wrote this statement as well!!!

So what does he mean by it glorydaz?

Its a simple, clear question. So please answer it. I am not asking you what else he wrote, I am asking you what this particular statement means.

I would add that Paul was saying that, to those who "could" obey the law 100% they, then would be considered righteous. However, no man "can" 100% obey the law except if Christ's righteousness is placed on this same man. Which is what happens after salvation has occurred...