Grubal Muruch
Member
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Tired of all the political strife and infighting?
Find out how Christians are supposed to act in the following study
https://christianforums.net/threads/charismatic-bible-studies-1-peter-2-11-17.109823/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
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Salvation by faith alone/only?
- Thread starter Frodo
- Start date
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
francisdesales
Member
I agree with what you are saying here.
The post before, however, I disagree with the idea that seems to be common here: God sent His Son to be a perfect Law follower; that way, God could grant mercy and redeem mankind, because God "couldn't" grant mercy until perfection was achieved...
Regards
francisdesales
Member
Yes, I apologize for the generalization. Not all Protestants take to the idea I laid out previously. Many on this forum feel as you do - that God's Love and Mercy is the reason behind man's redemption, not the successful perfect fulfillment of the Law.
Your second paragraph is agreeable to me - that His perfection of the Law testifies to His Person, since Jesus put aside any claim upon diety (Phil 2), thus, there cannot be any "demand" upon God to grant salvation BASED UPON perfect Law following.
And yea, I cited Phil 2, to no avail...
Now, if you could help me explain that to others here, that would be grand!
Regards
S
savedbygrace57
Guest
Believing and Confessing are things men do are they not ? Seems you cannot get away from being saved because of what men do. Thats works salvation, condemned by scripture. Titus 3:5
5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
francisdesales
Member
Of course not. I am not required to, nor is ANYONE before God grants mercy.
That's what you don't get. Mercy is not dependent upon the perfection of ANYONE. Throughout Scriptures, OT and NT, we find people who God calls righteous. In the NT, we aim towards "maturity", "completeness", (KJV interprets "perfect", which I believe is not the Greek sense) not utter perfection, since only God Himself is utterly perfect. God doesn't expect or demand perfection from us.
He desires us to be holy - not "God".
If He did, then salvation WOULD be something earned...
Regards
Grubal Muruch
Member
I see you have a slight "disagreement" with the Scripture presented. Most unfortunate. However, the truth is sometimes so simplistic as to be almost, indiscernible...
Grubal Muruch
Member
Quite to the contrary, my friend and fellow poster, God "does" expect, sinless perfection,and that is precisely why Christ fit the bill so perfectly...He, became sin for us, and paid the price for said, sins. He resurrected and made it possible for ALL to be forgiven of their sins and shown mercy...Eternal life belongs to those, who by faith, receive it...
francisdesales
Member
Yea, I gotta laugh too... :biglol
Well, at least you don't outright deny that you said something... You just try to change what you meant...
However, the context of your statements doesn't allow you to hide behind "you misunderstand me"
You are funny. Let's look more closely at what was happening during this stage of our discussions.
I was asking a very clear question. Even using underlined and bolded words. Very simple: (my words from former posts are in red, they were not originally. glorydaz's response are in blue)
#357 NO ONE CAN justify themselves. That is my point That is Paul's point.
Either God justifies or we (try) justify ourselves...
You then responded, by refering to my post as such:
#363 You did not answer my question. Was Jesus self-justifying Himself because of "perfect Law following"? Re-read Philipians 2:1-10 again...
NO ONE self-justifies themselves... Is this really such a difficult concept???
Yes, Jesus was "self-justifying" Himself because of perfect law keeping. Phil. doesn't say otherwise. Jesus is called the JUST ONE and didn't need to avail Himself of the free gift.
It is clear from this response and your following posts "...because of perfect Law keeping" becomes a key element in your idea of salvation. You are responding to my question of whether someone is "self-justified". You answer YES!!!
You tell us Jesus didn't need a free gift. This again tells us that He earned something. His work is "self justifying". Quotes or not, you meant what you said. The necessity for utter perfection BEFORE God grants salvation.
Your "quotations" do not make your statement less wrong. The intent to describe what you think is true is still there. Especially when we look at the context of your response. It is to my question "does God justify us or do we justify ourselves". In YOUR mind, the answer is "Jesus justifies Himself". In your mind, ANY perfect Law follower justifies THEMSELVES. You state, "they don't need the gift"...
Is it really so difficult to see that you are preaching the 'gospel' of self-justification? The perfect Law follower is justified, not because of God's mercy, but because of the act of the perfect Law follower.
WAGES!!!
The NEED is being expressed.
SOMEONE has to be paid first.
The Law is the center of what gives eternal life. Again, perfect obedience to it grants salvation (rather than God granting it freely).
Indeed. The reader will note the options.
Someone MUST achieve perfection. God will thus be obligated to grant it upon perfect achievement...
There is one choice - GOD saves - there never WAS two choices, as you lay out. Perfect obedience was NEVER even a theoretical possibility!!! THAT MAKES SALVATION POTENTIALLY SOMETHING EARNED!! :eeeekkk
And "three"???
You have YET to prove that "perfect obedience" from Scriptures grants eternal life. God grants mercy - and it doesn't depend upon a perfect Law follower.
You are merely repeating the party line without even realizing it is not backed up by Scriptures... Have you considered that?
Regards
francisdesales
Member
Please provide me a verse from Sacred Scriptures that tells us that God expects sinless perfection from mankind?
We are to aim for it, strive for it, to be holy as God is holy, to become mature, complete.
But do you really think God expects us to be utterly sinless??? Such a one is a "liar", according to 1 John... IF God EXPECTS sinless perfection, why does GOD HIMSELF call such a one who thinks this "a liar"???
Oh boy. You are still hung up on the need for someone to perfectly fulfill the Law. Perhaps you have been so brainwashed with that idea that you are having a hard time realizing it is not supported by Scriptures. It is a man-made doctrine.
Christ did not come here to save us BY perfect Law fulfillment, as if the Father was waiting for ANY human to do this BEFORE He redeemed mankind. God's plan depends upon mercy, not obligation.
Jesus didn't become sin, let's clarify that. He bore the punishment that man faces as a result of sin - death (according to what God told Adam). You are misstating Paul's intent.
Redemption is made possible because of the Father's Love for His Son, not out of obligation to the perfect Law Follower. Jesus PUT ASIDE any such claims, praise be to Him!
Regards
jasoncran
Member
that if thou shalt do these things thou shalt live.
some would interpret that to be as glory says. i was taught that. be ye holy as i am holy is found in the ot.
but looking at the prophets and men of God it was NEVER, THEIR deeds that made them right but their faith.
now moses was meekest on the face of the earth
david a man after gods own heart
noah found GRACE IN THE sight of the lord
abraham believed and rightenous was imputed upon him.
and all these had faults and all are clearly recorded
noah got drunk, abraham doubted at times and also lied about his wife sarah
david murdered and commited adultery, moses smote the rock
some would interpret that to be as glory says. i was taught that. be ye holy as i am holy is found in the ot.
but looking at the prophets and men of God it was NEVER, THEIR deeds that made them right but their faith.
now moses was meekest on the face of the earth
david a man after gods own heart
noah found GRACE IN THE sight of the lord
abraham believed and rightenous was imputed upon him.
and all these had faults and all are clearly recorded
noah got drunk, abraham doubted at times and also lied about his wife sarah
david murdered and commited adultery, moses smote the rock
Grubal Muruch
Member
Fran says-----Please provide me a verse from Sacred Scriptures that tells us that God expects sinless perfection from mankind?
Grubal-----Logic will dictate the answer you require. First of all, no man is capable of "sinless" perfection...There's no such animal...Christ is the "only" man who was sinless (the second Adam) He, was "sinless perfection personified" In order for man to be perfect enough for eternal life and come into the presents of Almighty God, that man would have to be "sinless" (without ANY sin) And the only way a man can become "sinless" before God is through Christ. If Christ be his Savior, that man is considered to be in the, "body of Christ," and therefore, he has been "sanctified, indwelt, and sealed" by the Holy Spirit and therefore, God no longer sees the mans sin, He sees the man (perfect) because the man is in the "body of Christ."
Fran says-----We are to aim for it, strive for it, to be holy as God is holy, to become mature, complete.
Grubal----- Apart from the "indwelling" Holy Spirit, we "cannot" do ANY striving on our own. (None) And in order to be able to strive we need to be, "Born again Spiritually" and that's a work of the Holy Spirit, not through, water baptism, going to church, doing good works, etc...
Fran----- But do you really think God expects us to be utterly sinless??? Such a one is a "liar", according to 1 John... IF God EXPECTS sinless perfection, why does GOD HIMSELF call such a one who thinks this "a liar"???
Grubal----We can only be made perfect by receiving Christ as Savoir and Lord, and being sanctified (cleansed) by the Spirit/indwelt and sealed. After that, e we are made perfect through Christ. However, we still live in our "fleshly" bodies and are capable of sin...But, we are seen by God as "perfect" through His Son...
Fran----Jesus didn't become sin, let's clarify that. He bore the punishment that man faces as a result of sin - death (according to what God told Adam). You are misstating Paul's intent.
Grubal----2 Corinthians 5:21 will explain your question above. 2 Corinthians 5:21---"For he has made him, who knew no sin, to be sin for us; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." Enough is said there to answer you...
Danus
Member
Trying, but I'm a little rusty ;)
S
savedbygrace57
Guest
gm
Not the scripture, the scripture is fine, but your teaching of salvation by works is not scriptural. You teach that man is saved by and because of something he does. Believing, confessing, repenting, are they not things that man does ? Yes or no..the answer should be very simple lol..
Not the scripture, the scripture is fine, but your teaching of salvation by works is not scriptural. You teach that man is saved by and because of something he does. Believing, confessing, repenting, are they not things that man does ? Yes or no..the answer should be very simple lol..
Matthew 5:48 - "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."
Grubal Muruch
Member
Yes, in order for us to receive the benefits of Christs atonement, we must place our faith. The Scripture says this is "mandatory."
S
savedbygrace57
Guest
gm
to my question that believing, repenting, and confessing are things men does
Thank You, you teach a man is saved by what he does, not by with what Christ did .
That is a false gospel, a salvation by the works of man.
to my question that believing, repenting, and confessing are things men does
Thank You, you teach a man is saved by what he does, not by with what Christ did .
That is a false gospel, a salvation by the works of man.
Grubal Muruch
Member
Yes, we must place our faith, this is a necessity in order to be saved. I'm glad you now see this...
S
savedbygrace57
Guest
gm
You are teaching a false gospel . You are teaching that man must perform to get saved. Christ's performance did not do it, that is what is that means.
You are teaching a false gospel . You are teaching that man must perform to get saved. Christ's performance did not do it, that is what is that means.
Grubal Muruch
Member
Yes, we must place our faith. The Scriptures tell us this...It's not a matter for argument it's a fact, and I'd like you to believe it, honestly...
S
savedbygrace57
Guest
Its no argument that you teach salvation by works, opposed to Grace..Thats a fact !