Salvation by faith alone/only?

[jasoncran]

Are you saying, as Joe is, that Jesus didn't have to come and shed His blood in order to save us, that God didn't require a spotless lamb?

Are you telling me that Jesus didn't have to die?

That He could have just Shed forth His Love and not His Blood?

I sure wish someone would have told God that.

no, never said that in fact i even said why he had to come

i made that clear when i said in hebrews what the death was about(new covenant) and also why he came to die in malachi. so that man could be saved when the day of the lord comes.

now then why did god forgive the nivenehites when they didnt do any of the things of law? they did this

Jonah 3


1And the word of the LORD came unto Jonah the second time, saying,
2Arise, go unto Nineveh, that great city, and preach unto it the preaching that I bid thee.
3So Jonah arose, and went unto Nineveh, according to the word of the LORD. Now Nineveh was an exceeding great city of three days' journey.
4And Jonah began to enter into the city a day's journey, and he cried, and said, Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown.
5So the people of Nineveh believed God, and proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth, from the greatest of them even to the least of them.
6For word came unto the king of Nineveh, and he arose from his throne, and he laid his robe from him, and covered him with sackcloth, and sat in ashes.
7And he caused it to be proclaimed and published through Nineveh by the decree of the king and his nobles, saying, Let neither man nor beast, herd nor flock, taste any thing: let them not feed, nor drink water:
8But let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and cry mightily unto God: yea, let them turn every one from his evil way, and from the violence that is in their hands.
9Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not? 10And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.

no shedding of blood at all , just mere repentance as they knew how

and theres these
ezekiel 22:30

30And I sought for a man among them, that should make up the hedge, and stand in the gap before me for the land, that I should not destroy it: but I found none. 31Therefore have I poured out mine indignation upon them; I have consumed them with the fire of my wrath: their own way have I recompensed upon their heads, saith the Lord GOD

and this in hebrews.
4

14Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.

15For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. 16Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need

and in malachi 4

1For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.

2But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
3And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.
4Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments.
5Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD: 6And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

and finally wrapping it all up.

john one

27He it is, who coming after me is preferred before me, whose shoe's latchet I am not worthy to unloose.

28These things were done in Bethabara beyond Jordan, where John was baptizing. 29The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world

now then the concept of the lamb being the yearly sacrifice is found in leviticus when the high priest(during yom kippur) went into take the blood and sprinkle on the alter.making atonement for the sins of isreal. this is the reason jesus is called the lamb of god. he was and is the atonment for men who sin. he sprinkled his blood on the earth and is in heaven being that high priest,

telling god have mercy i died for that man

you make god sound so quick to jugdge man, when in fact he is slow to anger. his wrath will come that is clear. you make a fals dichtomy when you say what you say and if we dont agree that jesus need to die.

joe never said that. in fact he agree with my statement on jesus making intercession for man. isn that what you say he came to do?

 

[francisdesales]

Oh he most certainly is! It was God who made that "law"...

No.

God made a law for men, because obedience to that Law was best for men. Consider the Decalogue. Imagine the world without stealing, lying, killing. It is best for men to follow the Law. God makes these laws for men. Men need to express worship of God. Rather than sacrificing children, God made a law where animals, a possession, was given to God. Shared with God.

None of this applies to God!!! God doesn't need to offer sacrifice, nor do sacrificial laws apply to God. This is common sense...

I would have to urge you also to study the atonement sacrifices required by God for the remission of their sin. The Old Testament people performed those sacrifices looking in faith towards the cross, the redemption by their Messiah, just as we look back to the cross, in faith.

I would urge you to read the last 20 pages of this thread to catch up where we are at...

God is not bound to sacrifice to Atone to men. Nor is there any law that requires God await a perfect law follower sacrificed to Him before He grants mercy and forgiveness.

When you say "required by God", remember, we are speaking of GOD. He is not bound by the same laws "required of man by God".

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Are you saying, as Joe is, that Jesus didn't have to come and shed His blood in order to save us, that God didn't require a spotless lamb?

Are you telling me that Jesus didn't have to die?

No, Jesus didn't have to die, in the absolute sense as some "requirement" placed upon God by "the law" (cue scary music).

However, being it was God's Will to show the DEPTHS of His Love and that inevitable clash with the power-hungry Pharisees, Jesus was GOING to die, as prophesized in the OT.

Jesus is called the "Lamb of God" and is referred to as a sacrifice in Scriptures. But there is no sense of "requirement" foisted UPON GOD! Can we get that through our collective minds?

WHAT PURPOSE DOES GOD NEED A SPOTLESS LAMB FOR???

Can ANYONE explain that?

That He could have just Shed forth His Love and not His Blood?

Many Church Fathers state that the Incarnation was "enough" for Christ to be the Mediator between God and mankind. That WAS His purpose, to intercede to the Father for our sake. That is the role a High Priest plays, correct? To intercede for the people? The letter to the Hebrews goes into great theological detail on this and the superiority of the priesthood of Jesus Christ.

The shedding of blood is considered "fitting" by such as Aquinas because it shows the EXTENT of God's Love. "Fitting" is not the same as "requirement".

When discussing love, leave "required" at the door... It doesn't belong in such conversations.

I sure wish someone would have told God that.

I'm sure He is well aware of this, He has told us in Scriptures over and over, it is just that you are stuck on your tradition of men:

Jesus eats with sinners and tax collectors, telling His critics at the feast of Levi that Jesus came to call sinners - there was no requirement to pay compensation from anyone (Mat 9:13).

The parable of the lost sheep (Mat 18:12) has the same message. The shepherd (Jesus) sets out in search, without prior conditions.

When Peter asked "How many times must I forgive my brother", Jesus is not about satisfaction or "justice", but to forgive 'seventy seven' (Mat 18:21)

The paralytic lowered through the roof. Not only was he cured, but he was forgiven of sins without any prior conditions. The approach taken by his friends show the seriousness of his desire to be healed (Mark 2:1-12)

The parable of the wicked servant (Mat 18:23-35) is very clear on the attitudes of God the Father. NO prior compensation or satisfaction demanded. He was granted forgivness upon request!

The sinful woman who anointed Jesus' feet. (Luke 7:36) was forgiven simply on the strength of her expressive show of love. No perfect satisfaction required for all the wrong she did in sinning.

The prodigal Son parable is well known. Must I also relate how the Father forgives the son who lives a wasteful life, just by asking forgiveness???

The good thief on the cross. Inevitably brought up on 'faith v works' threads, is another prime example of God's forgiveness. He merely asks for acceptance and is promised Paradise. (Luke 23:39-43)

The woman taken in adultery, (John 8:1-11), another example of unconditional forgiveness.

Peter's three fold profession of love of Jesus after the resurrection is quite enough, in the mind of Jesus, to provide forgiveness and tell Peter to "feed my sheep" (John 21:15-19)

There is ONE case of satisfaction in the Gospel, but it is offered by man to God! It is not demanded! Zacchaeus promises to provide four fold restitution, but there is no requirement from God to do this! It is MAN'S desire to show the sorrow and conversion taking place. (Luke 19:1-10)

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

They repented, Jason. Mercy is not dispensed until repentance is shown. As I said, when you see God granting mercy it's because they have repented.

Is it true? It is beginning to sink in? :p:p:p

Note carefully, no requirements from the Ninevites BUT REPENTANCE. No reparations, satisfaction, no killing 10000 bulls before God granted mercy. The Psalms are full of such words as to the nature of God's mercy upon a repentant heart.

Regards

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Is it true? It is beginning to sink in? :p:p:p

Note carefully, no requirements from the Ninevites BUT REPENTANCE. No reparations, satisfaction, no killing 10000 bulls before God granted mercy. The Psalms are full of such words as to the nature of God's mercy upon a repentant heart.

Regards

The sacrificing of animals (in the O.T.) was a "foreshadowing" of Christ coming to die for the sins of mankind...We know come before God after hearing His word preached and we are convicted by the Holy Spirit using that self same word of God...We must then, place our faith in Christ before we can be saved...

 

[glorydaz]

Is it true? It is beginning to sink in? :p:p:p

Note carefully, no requirements from the Ninevites BUT REPENTANCE. No reparations, satisfaction, no killing 10000 bulls before God granted mercy. The Psalms are full of such words as to the nature of God's mercy upon a repentant heart.

Regards

Had you bothered to read my posts, you'd have seen repentance was a requirement for mercy. I mentioned that numerous times. But mercy is only withheld punishment....it's only withheld until sin is covered by the blood. Neither mercy nor repentance erases sin. Only the blood of the spotless Lamb of God can satisfy the requirements of God's Law.

Judgment will come and faith in Jesus Christ and His shed blood is necessary for salvation. Had Christ not come as the spotless lamb of God, then punishment for sin would have to be made by us in order to satisfy God's Righteous Law. You just can't jump from repentance to salvation. You have to go through the cross.

 

[glorydaz]

Good, so we're not talking about ceremonial law. What are God's commands? Where do you find the "moral law of God which requires holiness and righteousness for life and death for disobedience" in the Bible? Are holiness and righteousness the same as perfection?

Yes, perfection. We see God's moral laws in the Ten Commandments which were further explained by Jesus when He came. Instead of Thou shalt not murder, it became you can't get angry or you've committed murder, and thou shalt not commit adultery became you can't even look at a woman with lust in your eye or you've committed aldultery. God looks into the heart of man, and even finds the sin there. Therefore, man can never meet the righteous requirement of God's Law. Thus, the need for the Spotless Lamb of God.

What "righteous requirements of God's law" did Christ fulfill?
What exactly did His Son do that man could not do?

Christ fulfilled all the requirements...He had no sin.

 

[glorydaz]

exactly and they didnt do by killing a lamb so god did in forgiving them violate his own law as no man could be forgiven(if you say it your way) without the shedding of blood.

its always been about the heart not how you repented(which sacrifice was needed).

Repentance doesn't save us, Jason. It's faith in Jesus Christ and His work on the cross.

We can be sorry til the cows come home, but if not for the shed blood of Christ, we'd all be lost.

Are you saying without the cross, man could simply repent?

 

[glorydaz]

no, never said that in fact i even said why he had to come

i made that clear when i said in hebrews what the death was about(new covenant) and also why he came to die in malachi. so that man could be saved when the day of the lord comes.

now then why did god forgive the nivenehites when they didnt do any of the things of law? they did this

no shedding of blood at all , just mere repentance as they knew how

It isn't that man needs to do anything with the law....it's that Christ is the only way, and He did all that's required.

If Jonah is a picture of Christ and salvation as many believe, then we see grace, faith, repentance, and salvation.

If it's not, then we see a national repentance, and God changing His plans to destroy their city. Then it would not be a question of salvation or the need for a sacrifice of any kind, but a reprieve from having the city destroyed. We see that quite often with Israel, for instance. They'd repent and then go back to their old ways.

At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it; If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.

I don't believe I've made God look mean. Yes, God is long-suffering, but He's also Righteous and sin cannot go unpunished. We pay for it ourselves, or we put our faith in Jesus Christ and His work on the cross.

 

[francisdesales]

Had you bothered to read my posts, you'd have seen repentance was a requirement for mercy. I mentioned that numerous times. But mercy is only withheld punishment....

I read it. And am not convinced that this is your true position based upon the need to kill the perfect law follower... You want it both ways...

You speak of mercy, but you deny that God showed it during the OT - except to serve a "purpose" which will remain unspecified. No doubt, musing on that would overturn your ideas, so you leave it ambiguous. Thus, you are just providing lip service. And you refuse to consider that God's act during the Exodus was an act of mercy that had NOTHING to do with punishment.

Why are you ignoring God's Word to prop up the tradition of men?

it's only withheld until sin is covered by the blood.

I read the pamplet, the handout, the tract.

I also read the Bible and haven't found anything about GOD needing blood to cover sin!!! One can only continue in this ridiculous line of thought of yours by WILLINGLY ignoring the entire concept of WHO the Law is for!!!

Neither mercy nor repentance erases sin.

Show me this in Scriptures. Show me where God cannot forgive men based upon his mercy.

The Mosaic Law's dictates. They have a powerful hold on you, don't they.

Perhaps you can explain the Gospel passages I previously cited. I find kings and fathers forgiving without any blood shed. But for some reason, GOD is bound by a law???

As to the rest, it is more of the same old tired mantra. No Scriptures, yet again.

 

[francisdesales]

Christ fulfilled all the requirements...He had no sin.

Please list those requirements from the Word of God.

 

[savedbygrace57]

Salvation is by Grace through Faith, not by Faith or because one believes. Eph 2:8


8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Most sound like this verse reads 2:


8For by faith are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Salvation is by Grace, Faith reveals it to those who are saved by Grace..

 

[jasoncran]

Repentance doesn't save us, Jason. It's faith in Jesus Christ and His work on the cross.

We can be sorry til the cows come home, but if not for the shed blood of Christ, we'd all be lost.

Are you saying without the cross, man could simply repent?

ok lets take this via solo scriptura.

you say that and i say this

first back to jonah 4

and then matthew 12 so that one cant say that there repentance wasnt enough.

Jonah 4


1But it displeased Jonah exceedingly, and he was very angry.
2And he prayed unto the LORD, and said, I pray thee, O LORD, was not this my saying, when I was yet in my country? Therefore I fled before unto Tarshish: for I knew that thou art a gracious God, and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repentest thee of the evil.
3Therefore now, O LORD, take, I beseech thee, my life from me; for it is better for me to die than to live.
4Then said the LORD, Doest thou well to be angry?
5So Jonah went out of the city, and sat on the east side of the city, and there made him a booth, and sat under it in the shadow, till he might see what would become of the city.
6And the LORD God prepared a gourd, and made it to come up over Jonah, that it might be a shadow over his head, to deliver him from his grief. So Jonah was exceeding glad of the gourd.
7But God prepared a worm when the morning rose the next day, and it smote the gourd that it withered.
8And it came to pass, when the sun did arise, that God prepared a vehement east wind; and the sun beat upon the head of Jonah, that he fainted, and wished in himself to die, and said, It is better for me to die than to live.
9And God said to Jonah, Doest thou well to be angry for the gourd? And he said, I do well to be angry, even unto death.
10Then said the LORD, Thou hast had pity on the gourd, for the which thou hast not laboured, neither madest it grow; which came up in a night, and perished in a night: 11And should not I spare Nineveh, that great city, wherein are more than sixscore thousand persons that cannot discern between their right hand and their left hand; and also much cattle?

and matthew 12

38Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee.

39But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
40For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. 41The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here

and here before david had any chance to give any sin offering .

2 Samuel 12

King James Version (KJV)


2 Samuel 12


1And the LORD sent Nathan unto David. And he came unto him, and said unto him, There were two men in one city; the one rich, and the other poor.
2The rich man had exceeding many flocks and herds:
3But the poor man had nothing, save one little ewe lamb, which he had bought and nourished up: and it grew up together with him, and with his children; it did eat of his own meat, and drank of his own cup, and lay in his bosom, and was unto him as a daughter.
4And there came a traveller unto the rich man, and he spared to take of his own flock and of his own herd, to dress for the wayfaring man that was come unto him; but took the poor man's lamb, and dressed it for the man that was come to him.
5And David's anger was greatly kindled against the man; and he said to Nathan, As the LORD liveth, the man that hath done this thing shall surely die:
6And he shall restore the lamb fourfold, because he did this thing, and because he had no pity.
7And Nathan said to David, Thou art the man. Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, I anointed thee king over Israel, and I delivered thee out of the hand of Saul;
8And I gave thee thy master's house, and thy master's wives into thy bosom, and gave thee the house of Israel and of Judah; and if that had been too little, I would moreover have given unto thee such and such things.
9Wherefore hast thou despised the commandment of the LORD, to do evil in his sight? thou hast killed Uriah the Hittite with the sword, and hast taken his wife to be thy wife, and hast slain him with the sword of the children of Ammon.
10Now therefore the sword shall never depart from thine house; because thou hast despised me, and hast taken the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be thy wife.
11Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house, and I will take thy wives before thine eyes, and give them unto thy neighbour, and he shall lie with thy wives in the sight of this sun.
12For thou didst it secretly: but I will do this thing before all Israel, and before the sun.
13And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the LORD. And Nathan said unto David, The LORD also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die.
14Howbeit, because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die.
15And Nathan departed unto his house. And the LORD struck the child that Uriah's wife bare unto David, and it was very sick.
16David therefore besought God for the child; and David fasted, and went in, and lay all night upon the earth.
17And the elders of his house arose, and went to him, to raise him up from the earth: but he would not, neither did he eat bread with them.
18And it came to pass on the seventh day, that the child died. And the servants of David feared to tell him that the child was dead: for they said, Behold, while the child was yet alive, we spake unto him, and he would not hearken unto our voice: how will he then vex himself, if we tell him that the child is dead?
19But when David saw that his servants whispered, David perceived that the child was dead: therefore David said unto his servants, Is the child dead? And they said, He is dead.
20Then David arose from the earth, and washed, and anointed himself, and changed his apparel, and came into the house of the LORD, and worshipped: then he came to his own house; and when he required, they set bread before him, and he did eat.
21Then said his servants unto him, What thing is this that thou hast done? thou didst fast and weep for the child, while it was alive; but when the child was dead, thou didst rise and eat bread.
22And he said, While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept: for I said, Who can tell whether GOD will be gracious to me, that the child may live?
23But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.
24And David comforted Bathsheba his wife, and went in unto her, and lay with her: and she bare a son, and he called his name Solomon: and the LORD loved him.
25And he sent by the hand of Nathan the prophet; and he called his name Jedidiah, because of the LORD.
26And Joab fought against Rabbah of the children of Ammon, and took the royal city.
27And Joab sent messengers to David, and said, I have fought against Rabbah, and have taken the city of waters.
28Now therefore gather the rest of the people together, and encamp against the city, and take it: lest I take the city, and it be called after my name.
29And David gathered all the people together, and went to Rabbah, and fought against it, and took it.
30And he took their king's crown from off his head, the weight whereof was a talent of gold with the precious stones: and it was set on David's head. And he brought forth the spoil of the city in great abundance. 31And he brought forth the people that were therein, and put them under saws, and under harrows of iron, and under axes of iron, and made them pass through the brick-kiln: and thus did he unto all the cities of the children of Ammon. So David and all the people returned unto Jerusalem.

now then did he offer any blood sacrifice to be forgiven? no and afterwords i bet he went to the priest and offered up the right sacrifice as a sign of petanance . he was clearly forgiven before hand. so that makes it twice god has forgiven men. and surely in your reading of the ot you would see that god doesnt tolerate sin.

so when the high priests phineas and elizer offered up sacrifices they didnt have the full pentanence? they need to hear the gospel.

so when jesus said this ye do err on the ressurection in that it is written.

I AM the God of abraham, isaac and jacob. for all live unto God. so since they didnt know christ how could that be since christ didnt die yet when that was said.

and also try to understand the bible from a jewish perspective instead of wierd gentile way of thinking. its written for the jews first and from the jews. no gentile wrote the bible.

let me ask you this

is God a jew? is that really what you say?jesus was a jew in the flesh but he is way beyond what he created. did it occur to you that he created the very concepts to show us aspects of him and what he was doing arbirtraly?

i mean this part.

God gave his only begotten son. so God had sex with a female god and then had some inheritance that he had on the earth to espouse to jesus when god died.

that is what begat means. the firstborn per jewish thought is the inheritor and chief of the estate when the father dies. one can see this with jacob and esau and also ishameal and isaac.

 

[glorydaz]

and here before david had any chance to give any sin offering .

now then did he offer any blood sacrifice to be forgiven? no and afterwords i bet he went to the priest and offered up the right sacrifice as a sign of petanance . he was clearly forgiven before hand. so that makes it twice god has forgiven men. and surely in your reading of the ot you would see that god doesnt tolerate sin.

so when the high priests phineas and elizer offered up sacrifices they didnt have the full pentanence? they need to hear the gospel.

so when jesus said this ye do err on the ressurection in that it is written.

I AM the God of abraham, isaac and jacob. for all live unto God. so since they didnt know christ how could that be since christ didnt die yet when that was said.

and also try to understand the bible from a jewish perspective instead of wierd gentile way of thinking. its written for the jews first and from the jews. no gentile wrote the bible.

let me ask you this

is God a jew? is that really what you say?jesus was a jew in the flesh but he is way beyond what he created. did it occur to you that he created the very concepts to show us aspects of him and what he was doing arbirtraly?

i mean this part.

God gave his only begotten son. so God had sex with a female god and then had some inheritance that he had on the earth to espouse to jesus when god died.

that is what begat means. the firstborn per jewish thought is the inheritor and chief of the estate when the father dies. one can see this with jacob and esau and also ishameal and isaac.

God had sex with a female god? You've lost me Jason.

I've already talked to you about Jonah. It was a national salvation from physical destruction. Or, it was a picture of salvation by grace through faith. I don't know if it wasn't both, but if it was national, it isn't talking about being saved spiritually. Get what I'm saying here?

As far as David goes, the Lord's actual crucifixion didn't take place in actuality until after David's time, but as you can see here, he foresaw it and his heart rejoiced. It was the Lord's work on the cross that made David's salvation possible...not any sacrifices he may or may not have performed.

For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved: Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:

No, God is not a Jew, but he chose them to be an example for all to see as to how He worked.

Jews didn't write the Bible, either, Jason. It's the inspired Word of God, so I'm not required to read it from a Jewish perspective. Of course Abraham knew God and the gospel was preached to Him. I don't know how God preached the Gospel to David and Abraham (and I'm sure every person of faith in the OT), but He did. They had to wait until the act was done before going to be with the Lord...I think you and I have talked of that already).

And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

 

[glorydaz]

Please list those requirements from the Word of God.

Okay, once again...not that you'll accept it, since you are so close-minded to this issue.

Here's one that speaks of that "cultic mosaic law".

For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me.

He fulfilled the Law.

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

He was without sin.

For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

He's the end of the law for righteousness.

For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

God sent His Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to condemn it.
[quote="Romans 8:3']For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:[/quote]

 

[francisdesales]

Okay, once again...not that you'll accept it, since you are so close-minded to this issue.

Here's one that speaks of that "cultic mosaic law".

OK, once again, not that you'll accept it, since you are so close-minded to this issue.

GOD IS NOT BOUND TO THE MOSAIC LAW. MAN IS...

GOD DOESN'T NEED TO PROCURE BLOOD.

He fulfilled the Law.

He was without sin.

Okay, once again...not that you'll accept it, since you are so close-minded to this issue.

Where does Scriptures state that cultic law is fulfilled when someone without sin offers his blood???

He's the end of the law for righteousness.

Originally Posted by Romans 10:4
For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth

Of course. He is the "end of the law for righteousness", but not because His blood was demanded as a requirement by God. It was because His intercessionary work was accepted for mankind (being that Jesus was man and God). The High Priest is offering HIMSELF - the blood is merely representative, as God does not need the blood of lambs, bulls, or human beings...

Regards

 

[childeye]

=francisdesales;587404]Of course. He is the "end of the law for righteousness", but not because His blood was demanded as a requirement by God. It was because His intercessionary work was accepted for mankind (being that Jesus was man and God). The High Priest is offering HIMSELF - the blood is merely representative, as God does not need the blood of lambs, bulls, or human beings...

This was a very efficacious way of discourse Joe. Sometimes it is hard to get through the semantics on this forum. I feel hopeful and thankful by the thoughts that proceed from considering not only what you say here, but how the events ended up having it said this way. Certainly God will not be patronized and surely there is a point where men are trustworthy without fail. Goodnews. I would venture to say that you are arguing against the same concept of the Old Testament that Satan held as displayed by The High priests that had Jesus crucified.

I hate to say this, but in my limited experience, this does not reflect some circles in the RCC nor orthodox nor protestant churches. Great work, you really made my heart soar and yet sore. Ahhh the bitter sweet of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Sinthesis]

OK, once again, not that you'll accept it, since you are so close-minded to this issue.

GOD IS NOT BOUND TO THE MOSAIC LAW. MAN IS...

GOD DOESN'T NEED TO PROCURE BLOOD.

Okay, once again...not that you'll accept it, since you are so close-minded to this issue.

Where does Scriptures state that cultic law is fulfilled when someone without sin offers his blood???

Of course. He is the "end of the law for righteousness", but not because His blood was demanded as a requirement by God. It was because His intercessionary work was accepted for mankind (being that Jesus was man and God). The High Priest is offering HIMSELF - the blood is merely representative, as God does not need the blood of lambs, bulls, or human beings...

Regards

Yep. The key of course is that Jesus is God.
God's blood was not demanded as a requirement by God. There was never any requirement placed upon God as this would be an affront to God's sovereignty. God did not have to lay down his life for anyone, any thing, or any reason. However, he chose to out of love from the beginning of the world. Jesus gifted us His blood through His sacrifice that we imperfect beings might believe the Gospel, trust in God, and redeem this world through the power of His Spirit. Think communion where the blood is the spirit. Jesus did not have to come incarnate, and Jesus did not have to leave. Yet He did because He loves us.

 

[Destructus86]

If someone claims Christ, but has no works to back it up...are they really saved? Because a new creation would crave to do the works of God.

BY THEIR FRUITS YOU WILL KNOW THEM.

Faith AND works go hand in hand. Works are the RESULT of being of the faith.

 

[childeye]

If someone claims Christ, but has no works to back it up...are they really saved? Because a new creation would crave to do the works of God.

BY THEIR FRUITS YOU WILL KNOW THEM.

Faith AND works go hand in hand. Works are the RESULT of being of the faith.

Indupitably.