Salvation by Faith Alone?

[Drew]

Again...Salvation does not come through any good works or good deeds or good intentions or volunteering at church or any kind of penance.

Do you believe in the inspored authority of the Old and New Testaments? It appears that you do not, since you do not agree with Paul at this point:

6God "will give to each person according to what he has done." 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

Can you explain to us why you reject the truthfulness of this statement?

 

[Drew]

After receiving salvation,....

After salvation.....? Let's see:

each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work. 14If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. 15If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

Let's be true to the text - if, as you say, you have already been saved, then this day when each man's work will be tested by fire has already come and gone.

Do you still want to claim that there is no sense in which there is a future dimension to salvation?

 

[awaken]

After receiving salvation,....

After salvation.....? Let's see:

each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work. 14If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. 15If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

Let's be true to the text - if, as you say, you have already been saved, then this day when each man's work will be tested by fire has already come and gone.

Do you still want to claim that there is no sense in which there is a future dimension to salvation?

This will happen at the judgment seat of Christ. Fire will burn off all of the wood, hay, or straw (meaning all of our self-centered and unrighteous acts on earth), but the gold, silver, and costly stones (our righteous acts for the Kingdom of God) will be refined and purified. Therefore, only our righteous acts will remain after the fire tests our earthly actions, deeds, and motives, and we will receive our rewards based solely on our works of faith and obedience. Everything that we do according to our own plans and ambitions and desires is ultimately useless and valueless. We should focus on being obedient to Jesus so that we lay up treasures in heaven for ourselves while we still can:

"For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames." (1 Corinthians 3:11-15)
Therefore, after our earthly works are tested in the fire then we will receive rewards or suffer loss based on the quality of our works. But this has nothing to do with salvation We will be saved even if our works are burnt up!

 

[Drew]

But this has nothing to do with salvation We will be saved even if our works are burnt up!

You are making my case for me. You yourself say "we will be saved". How then, do you hold to the view that your salvation is entirely already accomplished?

 

[glorydaz]

This will happen at the judgment seat of Christ. Fire will burn off all of the wood, hay, or straw (meaning all of our self-centered and unrighteous acts on earth), but the gold, silver, and costly stones (our righteous acts for the Kingdom of God) will be refined and purified. Therefore, only our righteous acts will remain after the fire tests our earthly actions, deeds, and motives, and we will receive our rewards based solely on our works of faith and obedience. Everything that we do according to our own plans and ambitions and desires is ultimately useless and valueless. We should focus on being obedient to Jesus so that we lay up treasures in heaven for ourselves while we still can:

"For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames." (1 Corinthians 3:11-15)
Therefore, after our earthly works are tested in the fire then we will receive rewards or suffer loss based on the quality of our works. But this has nothing to do with salvation We will be saved even if our works are burnt up!

Awaken, I would like to commend you for standing firm on the promises of God. Why so many try so hard to inject outright error into the Truth of the Gospel message is more than I can fathom. This spreading of doubt and fear does not come from the Spirit of God. I'm wondering if perhaps some don't know about the Bema Seat of Christ. The obvious verses concerning grace, justification, and eternal life are ignored and every verse that might possibly mean salvation can be lost are pushed to the fore. It's as if Christ's gift to us is being spat upon, and professed to be insufficient to save us without the help of man. Woe to the man who claims he is righteous. Christ in us is the righteous one, yet I still see some claiming the Word couldn't possibly be speaking of them when It says there are none righteous. Being called righteous and being righteous are two different things. Abraham was called righteous, and yet he went on to doubt God would give him a son, committed adultery with his servant, and lied about Sara being his wife. Even Lot was "called righteous". You've stated quite clearly that the believer does not come under condemnation, but has entered into eternal life. We need only await our rewards. Keep up the good work...you're earning rewards with every word you speak.

Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

 

[glorydaz]

But this has nothing to do with salvation We will be saved even if our works are burnt up!

You are making my case for me. You yourself say "we will be saved". How then, do you hold to the view that your salvation is entirely already accomplished?

Present perfect.....I love how Drew ignores all the verses that state quite clearly we are saved, and we were saved, and we are sealed unto the day of redemption. You'll never hear any of the promises from Drew...only spreading of fear and doubt. It does make one think. :yes

 

[awaken]

But this has nothing to do with salvation We will be saved even if our works are burnt up!

You are making my case for me. You yourself say "we will be saved". How then, do you hold to the view that your salvation is entirely already accomplished?

It is accomplished in Christ..He has paid the price!

 

[chestertonrules]

[

Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

You presume to count yourself among God's elect prematurely.

1 Cor 10:12
Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.



What point was Paul making when he wrote this?

 

[glorydaz]

[

Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

You presume to count yourself among God's elect prematurely.

1 Cor 10:12
Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.



What point was Paul making when he wrote this?

Not the point you're think, obviously. :biglaugh

I know I'm saved...the Spirit within bears witness. Paul is talking about those who think they're saved but are not changed. I'm sure you've met many in your travels. I have full assurance of my salvation, as all true believers do. If you're not sure...you're not.

edited to add....every time you read fall in the Bible, it is not talking about losing salvation. It is most generally talking about falling out of fellowship with the Lord.

 

[francisdesales]

edited to add....every time you read fall in the Bible, it is not talking about losing salvation. It is most generally talking about falling out of fellowship with the Lord.

This is not exactly a "rule of thumb" that we should take into consideration...

He that hath the Son hath life; [and] he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. 1 John 5:12

If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast [them] into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

If falling means falling out of fellowship, you are not abiding in Him, you have not the Son. There is no eternal rewards for those who have willingly fallen out of fellowship with the Lord.

Regards

 

[chestertonrules]

You presume to count yourself among God's elect prematurely.

1 Cor 10:12
Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.



What point was Paul making when he wrote this?

Not the point you're think, obviously. :biglaugh

I

[/quote]


You seem to be consistent about ignoring all scripture that contradicts your doctrine.

The high number of passages that conflict with your dogma should be a warning sign to you.

 

[chestertonrules]

But this has nothing to do with salvation We will be saved even if our works are burnt up!

You are making my case for me. You yourself say "we will be saved". How then, do you hold to the view that your salvation is entirely already accomplished?

It is accomplished in Christ..He has paid the price!

Paid the price for whom? The World? Does this mean that you believe in universal salvation?

 

[awaken]

Paid the price for whom? The World? Does this mean that you believe in universal salvation?

No, I do not believe in universal salvation. He paid the price on the cross, yes..for the whole world..but the whole world will not recieve that, they want to add to it! I do believe it was Gods plan before the foundation of the earth that we were all to be saved..but when we reject His son..we are taken out of the book!


I believe where we disagree is that I believe that Christ accomplished/paid the price for us on the cross. We have faith in that work to save us. I have accepted this gift.. therefore I am saved (rescued from the punishment for our sins (separation from God and torment in hell) and to inherit eternal life. By trusting in Christ for our salvation we instantly pass from spiritual death to spiritual life and are freed from the power of sin.)..Yes, I am still growing ....I understand there is a maturing process as a christian..we are growing in faith and from glory to glory...You seem to believe without growth we are not saved. What if I died as a child in Christ? without growth? without works? am I saved? Was my faith as a child (spiritually) enough?

We are to work out our own salvation...but before we work it out, don't we first have to have it? How do we work out something we do not already have?

 

[francisdesales]

I believe where we disagree is that I believe that Christ accomplished/paid the price for us on the cross.

So do we, awaken... We believe this work is available to every and any man - but every and any man chooses not to ACCEPT the work of Christ. It is conditional upon our acceptance, what we would call an active response in faith in God.

Without this acceptance of grace, God does not save us and Christ's work is not applied, although Jesus did die for every man.

We have faith in that work to save us. I have accepted this gift.. therefore I am saved (rescued from the punishment for our sins (separation from God and torment in hell) and to inherit eternal life. By trusting in Christ for our salvation we instantly pass from spiritual death to spiritual life and are freed from the power of sin.)..Yes, I am still growing ....I understand there is a maturing process as a christian..we are growing in faith and from glory to glory...You seem to believe without growth we are not saved. What if I died as a child in Christ? without growth? without works? am I saved? Was my faith as a child (spiritually) enough?

The growth required to be saved to heaven depends upon what God judges as sufficient. The person who dies falling out of the baptismal font is not EXPECTED to grow. However, just the fact that we ARE supposed to become sanctified tells us that the journey IS important, the resultant obedience and love that issues from us will determine whether we indeed WILL be saved. Each case is different, so there is no "minimum amount" of faith required to enter the Kingdom, achieved upon first walking out of the font (since if you died there, you'd be saved...) It doesn't work that way.

We are in a relationship with God, not on an accounting system where we need "x" faith to be saved, achieved upon our initial baptism. If our faith does not grow, given the gifts we have been given, we are doomed. Consider the parable of the talents. Men are given different talents, and God judges whether the talents were properly utilized. The time is not a consideration, but the "return on investment" - "given back" to God. Do we Love? Is it noticeable, God's gifts? Thus, we don't look back at the minimum amount of faith to save, but whether we are in a good relationship with God.

We are to work out our own salvation...but before we work it out, don't we first have to have it? How do we work out something we do not already have?

here, what we first must have is salvation = forgiveness of sins.
To attain salvation = heaven, that takes something more. Yes, we must have the first salvation BEFORE we attain the second. But the first does not always lead to the second salvation.

Here is the source of much confusion - salvation's various definitions.

Regards

 

[Drew]

But this has nothing to do with salvation We will be saved even if our works are burnt up!

You are making my case for me. You yourself say "we will be saved". How then, do you hold to the view that your salvation is entirely already accomplished?

It is accomplished in Christ..He has paid the price!

You are evading again.

You claim that salvation is entirely achieved at the point of belief. Paul clearly speaks of salvation as having a future aspect to it.

Please stop avoiding my question: Do you stand by your claim that salvation is entirely accomplished at the point of belief, that there is no sense in which salvation is also a future event.

Remember - Paul is saying "he himself will be saved,"

Please try to understand this: It is entirely coherent to claim that our salvation is assured at the point of belief (barring a total walking away from God) in virtue of our faith, and yet that God "looks at our works" at the end to award salvation. This is rather clearly Paul's argument.

I frankly tire of the shameless evasion we see in this and other threads. I have asked you some questions that you have simply ignored. Here is one - please answer it, and do not continue to run away from the difficult questions:

Do you believe in the inspored authority of the Old and New Testaments? It appears that you do not, since you do not agree with Paul at this point:

6God "will give to each person according to what he has done." 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

Can you explain to us why you reject the truthfulness of this statement?

 

[Mysteryman]

Paid the price for whom? The World? Does this mean that you believe in universal salvation?

No, I do not believe in universal salvation. He paid the price on the cross, yes..for the whole world..but the whole world will not recieve that, they want to add to it! I do believe it was Gods plan before the foundation of the earth that we were all to be saved..but when we reject His son..we are taken out of the book!


I believe where we disagree is that I believe that Christ accomplished/paid the price for us on the cross. We have faith in that work to save us. I have accepted this gift.. therefore I am saved (rescued from the punishment for our sins (separation from God and torment in hell) and to inherit eternal life. By trusting in Christ for our salvation we instantly pass from spiritual death to spiritual life and are freed from the power of sin.)..Yes, I am still growing ....I understand there is a maturing process as a christian..we are growing in faith and from glory to glory...You seem to believe without growth we are not saved. What if I died as a child in Christ? without growth? without works? am I saved? Was my faith as a child (spiritually) enough?

We are to work out our own salvation...but before we work it out, don't we first have to have it? How do we work out something we do not already have?

Hi

Lets try and seperate salvation from eternal life shall we ?

Eternal life is a free gift. You didn't earn it, and you didn't accept it, nor did you deny it. God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son. From that point on, those who believe will not perish, but have life everlasting. But those of the OT who knew not the promises of God also have eternal life, because of the love of God. And because he is no respector of persons. A free gift is a free gift ! Don't add to this free gift any conditions other than a sin unto death, from which God takes one's name out of the book of life.

Salvation is for a purpose. To be saved from or to be saved for a certain purpose. All those of the OT who knew not the promises of God were not saved as we are today. Because the promise of salvation was not unto them. Nor was the promise of the promised seed unto them either ! God is a righteous Judge, and because of this he will judge righteously . Moses knew of the book of life. And he also knew of those names which were taken out of the book of life. The two books of life pertain to eternal life ! The only way in which one will not have eternal life is if God takes their name and blots it out of the book of life.

King David received a revelation, and he said - "The Lord said unto my Lord , sit thou on my right hand" - Acts 2:34 and verse 35 - "Until I make thy foes they footstool". And David spake of this resurrection - verses 30 - 32. So David had a vision of a resurrection. And if you read the Psalms, you will notice the insight of David pertaining to one's soul. But only the prophets and what the prophets spoke were made known to those of the OT, and especially Israel. They are all dead, so none of them can go through the tribulation of God. Anyone that is dead can not go through the tribulation of God ! Only people who are alive can ! And God saved the church from his wrath. And our salvation is also to come back with Christ , when he comes back to this earth.

So God is going to gather up the church before the tribulation of God (wrath of God).

We work out our salvation with trembling and fear, because the promise of God is that we can loose some of our inheritance. We can never loose eternal life ! Jesus Christ didn't come to save those whom were already taken out of the book of life.

Eternal life is not an inheritance. We inherit in eternal life. Christians are join heirs with Christ. Everyone in the OT were not christians. Just like the Levites, God said that they would own nothing. Yet, they were given an inheritance. That inheritance was a tenth of the tenth given by Israel. You do not earn an inheritance ! Yet , you can loose your inheritance , as did Esau. God even required the Levite Priests to give a tenth of the tithe received. If you read the book of Malachi, which was written unto the Levite Priest. You will notice the condition of this inheritance.

 

[awaken]

I frankly tire of the shameless evasion we see in this and other threads. I have asked you some questions that you have simply ignored. Here is one - please answer it, and do not continue to run away from the difficult questions:

Do you believe in the inspored authority of the Old and New Testaments? It appears that you do not, since you do not agree with Paul at this point:

6God "will give to each person according to what he has done." 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

Can you explain to us why you reject the truthfulness of this statement?

It is not Paul that I do not agree with..it is your interpretation of Pauls writings that I do not agree with.
Drew, I have answered this..IT is talking about rewards. Just because I do not interpret the way you do does not mean I am avoiding you.

To believe this scripture the way you explain it contradicts other scriptures. I will study it out futher...

 

[Drew]

Drew, I have answered this..IT is talking about rewards. Just because I do not interpret the way you do does not mean I am avoiding you.

To believe this scripture the way you explain it contradicts other scriptures. I will study it out futher...

6God "will give to each person according to what he has done." 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

I really do not know how to deal with this - when you read the letters "e-t-e-r-n-a-l l-i-f-e", does your brain not tell you "this is a reference to, yes, eternal life"? How do you justify taking out "eternal life" and subsituting "rewards". If Paul had meant what you think he is saying, would he not have written this?:

6God "will give to each person according to what he has done." 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give rewards.

You need to face facts - the text is an assertion about the awarding of eternal life, not rewards to those who otherwise get eternal life.

And, no, my interpretation does not contradict other scriptures. Tell me one such scripture.

And I apologize for the overly condesecending and insulting tone of my previous post. I believe that you honestly believe that this is a text about rewards, even though I cannot understand how you get there.

 

[glorydaz]

edited to add....every time you read fall in the Bible, it is not talking about losing salvation. It is most generally talking about falling out of fellowship with the Lord.

This is not exactly a "rule of thumb" that we should take into consideration...

He that hath the Son hath life; [and] he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. 1 John 5:12

If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast [them] into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

If falling means falling out of fellowship, you are not abiding in Him, you have not the Son. There is no eternal rewards for those who have willingly fallen out of fellowship with the Lord.

Regards

I don't think I said it was a "rule of thumb". However in the verse you quote, not "abiding" is not talking about falling. It's about never having life to begin with.

Being out of fellowship is not the same as not abiding. We live in Christ and He in us....being out of fellowship just means we aren't talking. I'm sure most people understand the concept of living in the same house but not communicating. :yes Christ doesn't depart from us when we aren't communicating with Him...He promised never to leave nor forsake us.

Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

He that has the Son has life....effective communcation with our Lord does not affect our being alive in Christ, it affects our walk and peace, but not our salvation.

He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

 

[chestertonrules]

Paid the price for whom? The World? Does this mean that you believe in universal salvation?

No, I do not believe in universal salvation. He paid the price on the cross, yes..for the whole world..but the whole world will not recieve that, they want to add to it! I do believe it was Gods plan before the foundation of the earth that we were all to be saved..but when we reject His son..we are taken out of the book!

Luke 10
16"He who listens to you listens to me; he who rejects you rejects me; but he who rejects me rejects him who sent me."

Matthew 18
17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.


John 20
21Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." 22And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."

1 Timothy 3
15if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.

2 Thes 2
15So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.

Matthew 16

17Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. 18And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. 19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."