Salvation by Faith Alone?

[awaken]

Again, the problem is you and the sola fide believers do not understand the definition of salvation as MM correctly points out. You apply your convuluted defintion broad-stroked across the variety of meanings that Scriptures use for the term, thus, the confusion.

The definition of salvation above - that I receive salvation - is = to the forgiveness of sin. It does NOT follow that this same salvation ALWAYS leads to salvation to eternal heaven... One must CONTINUE, CONTINUE in faith, belief, obedience to gain this access. Scriptures give ample examples of those who ONCE received such "salvation" (forgiveness of sins) who DO NOT receive the OTHER salvation - entrance into eternal life in heaven...

By telescoping "forgiveness of sins" to ALL times Scriptures speaks of salvation, you lose sight of the fallacy of OSAS - and that we CAN lose "salvation", our inheritance to eternal life given.

To be "saved" is to be rescued from the punishment which we deserve for our sins, and to inherit eternal life. Those who are saved will go to heaven, and those who are not saved will go to hell. See for example Matthew 1:21, Luke 7:48-50, Acts 4:12, 5:31, 16:30-31, Romans 1:16, Ephesians 2:8-9.

Jesus defined eternal life as being a relationship with God, which will never end (John 17:3). "Eternal life" does not simply mean "existing eternally," because even the unsaved people throughout history will exist eternally. All humans will exist eternally because our spirits can never die or be snuffed out of existence. However, only those who are saved will have "life" eternally, because they will be in an eternal relationship with God. See for example John 3:15-16, 36, 5:24, 6:47, 11:25-26, 20:30-31.

 

[awaken]

And if that faith becomes dead faith, faith without love, it is worthless, according to Paul and Jesus, as I have already pointed out, and you have promptly and continuously ignored...

I have not ignored it..to a point I do agree with you. The point I agree is that anything done without love profits nothing. If you are saved the love of God will be in you..But do we always walk by the Spirit? It does not mean the Spirit left..we are just quenching it!

 

[awaken]

Yes, and if there is no good works, there is no saving faith, and thus, faith alone does not save. Christ clearly tells us that good works are indicative of that saving faith. Without them, there is no salvation to eternal life. Note again Matthew 25. None of the "goats" committed major sins. The foolish virgins, what sin did they commit? The issue is that without works of love, you cannot enter the Kingdom.

Again..here goes the circle...
If there is not good works...then the savation was never there! I obey God because I am saved! I do not obey to obtain salvation.

The "sheep" had received salvation and had been doing works of faith and obedience, just as Jesus described in some of the other parables. However, the "goats" did not do any works of faith and obedience (they were not "watching and ready" because they did not receive salvation), and they will be "taken" in judgment by being killed (Matthew 25:41-46).

Again..the goats did not have salvation..they did not have faith..therefore they did not have good works! We do good works because of our faith..not to obtain salvation!

 

[awaken]

Didn't God seal me with His Holy Spirit?

The seal marks as you as a child of God, not as an unconditionally saved to heaven person... One becomes an heir ONLY upon fulfilling an obligation - it is not unconditionally given to everyone.

Saul was also sealed with the Spirit, and the Spirit promptly abandoned Saul when he chose not to follow the ways of God.

Did Saul have the indwelling Holy Spirit? In the Old Testament..the Spirit came upon them not in them. Were they sealed with the Holy Spirit in the OT?

 

[glorydaz]

You most certainly have, and all these "round and round" arguments are nothing but an attempt to pull us away from the promises of God and instill doubt in the believer. Stick to the simple Gospel message...you've got it down.

Wrong, sir.

Paul is quite clear to make exhortions about NOT being overconfident and remaining awake.

Perhaps you should consider meditating on WHY the 'saved for heaven" man must worry about NOT being overconfident and falling "asleep" about working out his salvation in fear and trembling, and being told that faith alone is worthless, as nothing???

The simple Gospel message is to remain in Christ. False hope based upon something you did 20 years ago guarantees absolutely nothing -

Except, that if you fall away, your status NOW will be WORSE than before being saved, as we have discussed already.

How is that possible in your paradigm????

No, no one is "taking away" the confidence of salvation - we are affirming that one must HOLD ONTO it!

CONTINUE in Christ, that is the "simple Gospel". Not rest on your laurels.

Regards

On the contrary, we're to be confident in the Lord's work on the cross and His ability to "keep" those the Father has given Him. It isn't about what "I" did years ago, it's what He did in me, years ago. He made me a new creature, there is no resting on my "laurels", but resting in Him. "Working out our salvation with fear and trembling" does not mean we can lose our salvation, for we have already entered into eternal life when we're born of the Spirit.

So let's look at this verse....since it is God which works in us both to will and do His good pleasure, what have we to fear? This is actually speaking of the awe and respect we have for the Mighty God who dwells in us as we live out our daily lives. Not that our eternal salvation is in doubt.

And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

The Greek word translated 'fear' can equally well mean 'reverence' or 'awe' or even 'respect,' ... Surely the same Spirit who inspired Paul to write to Timothy that 'God has not given us the spirit of fear; but of power and of love and of a sound mind' could not also have meant us to live our entire lives in a state of nervous terror. When Paul wrote to the Corinthians and reported that Titus had been encouraged and refreshed by their reception of him, he then went on to say that the Corinthian Christians received him with 'fear and trembling'.

And his inward affection is more abundant toward you, whilst he remembereth the obedience of you all, how with fear and trembling ye received
him.

It makes no sense for any real Christian minister being encouraged and refreshed by a display of nervous anxiety." ;)

 

[glorydaz]

Faith alone does save...

Where is the Scriptures that say this?

Never does anyone even imply that faith "alone" saves for eternal life. Merely stating it means nothing.

dead faith is not true faith.

"Dead" faith is faith, nevertheless, according to James. You ARE familiar with the English language, aren't you? The word "dead" is an adjective that describes the noun, faith. It tells us that it IS faith, but non-salvific, dead. The thinking person would then ask "what is needed to make faith SAVING, ALIVE"?

the answer, Paul and Jesus and James and John would say, Is LOVE!

You must ignore all of these men to claim "sola fide".

Without this love, you are nothing. How many times must I repeat this before it sinks in? Faith WITHOUT SOMETHING ELSE is NOTHING. Another author says "DEAD".

HOW CAN FAITH WITHOUT SOMETHING (LOVE) SAVE???? Faith that is dead is still called "faith". Look at the last line of James 2. He calls this faith without love, faith, just the same. But it doesn't save.

Thus, logic dictates that there is faith that saves and faith that does not save. In other words, a qualifier is needed. LOVE. Is love present? Something Absolutely necessary to qualify "faith" means that faith alone is false. faith without the qualifier is DEAD.

Dead faith is a faith that has never partaken of life to begin with.

Wrong. It is a description of one's love. James makes that clear, addressing "saved" Christians who choose NOT to love their poorer neighbors. Now, flash back to Jesus and Matthew 25. What is needed to enter eternal life and what is needed to be condemend? Acts of Love. That is James faith working in love.

When faith is not working in love, it is nothing.

Thus, faith alone is nothing.

In other words, people may say they believe, but Jesus says your belief is not sufficient unless it involves a new birth (life), a transformation which then leads to a life of obedience.

Yes, so without love, your admissions of faith are pointless. Now, contineu with this line of thought, and you'll see that faith alone is nothing...

Valid saving faith has always been verified by fruit.

And without the fruit, love, faith does not save.

FAITH WITHOUT LOVE DOES NOT SAVE.

Thanks for making this clear, you are buring the fallacy known as sola fide...

Regards

Actually you can repeat and repeat your doctrine until the cows come home, but that does not make you correct. How many times must you say it? What? As if your saying something makes it a fact? Sorry, but I don't follow the doctrines of men, but what is given quite clearly in the Word of God. Dead faith is faith without life. What is imparted to man at his new birth? Life. The fruit of the Spirit comes AFTER we are saved...with the fruit comes love. Now you can go on and on about our showing forth love, but the fact remains...we are justified by faith. The fruit follows that. Dead faith doesn't save because it has no life. No life was ever imparted. Life comes from our new birth. You seem intent on ignoring the actual point of salvation...which is birth. With birth comes LIFE. Then love can be manifest in our lives. Elementary, my dear friend....elementary. ;)

 

[chestertonrules]

[quote="glorydaz] Actually you can repeat and repeat your doctrine until the cows come home, but that does not make you correct. How many times must you say it? What? As if your saying something makes it a fact? Sorry, but I don't follow the doctrines of men, but what is given quite clearly in the Word of God. Dead faith is faith without life. What is imparted to man at his new birth? Life. The fruit of the Spirit comes AFTER we are saved...with the fruit comes love. Now you can go on and on about our showing forth love, but the fact remains...we are justified by faith. The fruit follows that. Dead faith doesn't save because it has no life. No life was ever imparted. Life comes from our new birth. You seem intent on ignoring the actual point of salvation...which is birth. With birth comes LIFE. Then love can be manifest in our lives. Elementary, my dear friend....elementary. ;)[/quote]

Calvin is a man.

The bible is quite clear that we will be judged for our actions as well as our beliefs.

God's grace has appeared to all men. What will you do with this free gift? Will you mock God, or will you sow to please the Spirit?

Don't be the one saying, "but Lord, when did I see you hungry?"

Strive to be the one who hears, "Well DONE, my good and faithful servant."

 

[Aaron the Tall]

The bible is quite clear that we will be judged for our actions as well as our beliefs.

God's children may be judged for their actions - but with a view toward reward, not toward punishment.

Those who have received God's forgiveness through Jesus have escaped God's wrath.

If works are an essential part of obtaining eternal life, what of the person who dies just moments after he believes in Christ for salvation? He didn't have time to exercise his faith in love through works. If he goes to heaven, then you have an example where works were not required.

 

[Nick]

The possibility of obeying God is a gift from God Himself. Thus, no one can boast, since a positive judgment of a man DEPENDS upon that gift being efficacious in that man.

Ok. It seems we agree Francis.

 

[Mysteryman]

Quote francis: "Without this love, you are nothing. How many times must I repeat this before it sinks in? Faith WITHOUT SOMETHING ELSE is NOTHING. Another author says "DEAD".

HOW CAN FAITH WITHOUT SOMETHING (LOVE) SAVE???? Faith that is dead is still called "faith". Look at the last line of James 2. He calls this faith without love, faith, just the same. But it doesn't save.

Thus, logic dictates that there is faith that saves and faith that does not save. In other words, a qualifier is needed. LOVE. Is love present? Something Absolutely necessary to qualify "faith" means that faith alone is false. faith without the qualifier is DEAD."


Hi francis

Okay, now you have gone from being saved by your good works, to being saved by faith, and love becomes the factor of one being or not being saved. I actually don't think that you can make up your mind which theory saves you. Good works, or faith by love. Which btw, neither saves you ! Both are a manifestation of already being saved by God, through his grace.

Francis, you just seem to be rambling on and on and on, without any correct sense of direction.

The Word states clearly, that faith without works is dead (meaning empty).

Actually , James 5:20 does not talk about love at all. It talks about converting a sinner, and saving a soul from being empty ( the word "dead" here is used as an adjective), and hiding a multitude of sins.

 

[Nick]

Actually , James 5:20 does not talk about love at all. It talks about converting a sinner, and saving a soul from being empty ( the word "dead" here is used as an adjective), and hiding a multitude of sins.

I don't think Francis said that James 5:20 was talking about love. He did mention 1 Corinthians 13 talking about love though.

 

[Mysteryman]

Actually , James 5:20 does not talk about love at all. It talks about converting a sinner, and saving a soul from being empty ( the word "dead" here is used as an adjective), and hiding a multitude of sins.

I don't think Francis said that James 5:20 was talking about love. He did mention 1 Corinthians 13 talking about love though.

Hi Nick

Yes, he did mention I Corinth. 13. But that is not the point. No one should mix and match scripture, just to attain a certain result. Francis was talking about being saved, and he did indeed make a reference towards James 5:20. Read it once again, as I copy and pasted it in my previous post. Never over look what someone tries to say in reference to a certain point. And then uses other scripture to try and make that point. And the last I knew, we are all speaking the same language (English).

 

[Nick]

Actually , James 5:20 does not talk about love at all. It talks about converting a sinner, and saving a soul from being empty ( the word "dead" here is used as an adjective), and hiding a multitude of sins.

I don't think Francis said that James 5:20 was talking about love. He did mention 1 Corinthians 13 talking about love though.

Hi Nick

Yes, he did mention I Corinth. 13. But that is not the point. No one should mix and match scripture, just to attain a certain result. Francis was talking about be saved, and he did indeed make a reference towards James 5:20. Read it once again, as I copy and pasted it in my previous post. Never over look what some tries to say in reference to a certain point. And then uses other scripture to try and make that point. And the last I knew, we are all speaking the same language (English).

Ahh yes I see he did 'mix and match' scriptures. My mistake.

ANd there seems to be a LOT of taliking English here, I've noticed.

 

[francisdesales]

Did Saul have the indwelling Holy Spirit? In the Old Testament..the Spirit came upon them not in them. Were they sealed with the Holy Spirit in the OT?

Please explain in real world words what exactly is the difference??? How would I act differently if the Spirit came upon me, rather than in me. Note, the Spirit came UPON Christ...

The Holy Spirit was given to select few people in the OT, and now, in the NT, it is given much more freely to anyone who asks for it. I would suggest this was the difference, as God acted even during OT times to bring about righteous people who lived from faith to faith. The Spirit's work was the same - to draw out faith working in love.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Faith is a gift, but it can be destroyed by unrepentant sin.

Just wondering where this idea is found in the Bible?

Paul writes to Timothy that one can make a shipwreck of their faith, for example. Peter says we become worse than before we were saved when we return to a life of sin. Paul writes that the blood of Christ no longer applies to those who willfully sin. Jesus says we must obey God, not merely SAY "Lord, Lord".

The possibility of obeying God is a gift from God Himself. Thus, no one can boast, since a positive judgment of a man DEPENDS upon that gift being efficacious in that man.

How is that gift worked through us? Can we do good works because we are a new creation (as 2 Cor 5:17 indicates) or because we are a "better" person?

Because we are a new creation. And those works, (good deeds, a better idea to avoid confusion with Romans 4:4) are indeed salvific, since nothing else matters but faith WORKING in love.

I ask because I'm not sure what you think happens when someone has initial faith in Christ? Protestants see salvation as an "event." Catholics see salvation as a "process." What would you say happens when someone has faith in Christ? How are they different? Are they transferred from the kingdom of darkness to the Kingdom of God (Colossians 1:13)? Is there a change in the spiritual nature of the individual? Would you say that this change is not a guarantee of heaven?

Catholics generally understand salvation as "heaven". However, when we are being more theologically precise, we note that salvation has multiple meanings (which explains why there is some confusion when discussing this issue). It can refer to heaven, or it can refer to our initial justification, where sins are forgiven and we are born from above as children of God. THIS justification does not guarantee the salvation to heaven, which is more dependent upon that initial justification taking "ROOT" and "GROWING". The seed is not salvific (since it can be taken away or die) but the fruit produced. THAT is what Christ points to as the desired result - the 50, 100 fold increase.

Finally, it seems to me that a Catholic doesn't know for sure if he is "saved" until he dies? How do you respond to this? What sort of a new creation are you if you are not born again, or "saved" the moment you believe?

Jesus Christ saves us, but it is not a one-time event (again, heaven is the mindset, not forgiveness of sins). I am a new creation - but that means I have a new principle within me, the Spirit of God. Being a new creation does not mean, however, that I cannot sin or that I can later choose to return to my former status. Yes, we are saved (forgiven of sins) the moment we are baptized - but we are not saved for heaven by that one act. Jesus clearly says that our faith must continue, we must continue to produce fruit, our faith must have roots to produce, even in difficult times.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Again..here goes the circle...
If there is not good works...then the savation was never there! I obey God because I am saved! I do not obey to obtain salvation.

No. We don't judge our salvation (forgiveness of sins) based upon our good works. Our salvation was given, definitively, upon our baptism. We were given a definitive visible sign that, by faith, tells us that God's Spirit HAS come down upon us. Baptism. We don't have to constantly prove that Christ forgave us of sins. It HAPPENED. WITHOUT DOUBT. "Your" way calls into doubt whether Christ EVER came to you!!! All those good works of the past were moved by whom, then???

We don't constantly have to be "good" to prove that Christ came to us in the past to forgive us of sins. That is a re-establishment of the concept that one must be perfect to constantly prove that God CAME to us once a upon a time...

Again..the goats did not have salvation..they did not have faith..therefore they did not have good works! We do good works because of our faith..not to obtain salvation!

Salvation, here, is not refering to the forgiveness of sins, but to eternal life. No, of course, they didn't receive eternal life, salvation - because they had no inner intent of love, shown by their external deeds.

"your" idea is one where faith is an automatic conveyor belt. Once I have faith, the good works roll on automatically. This is not supported by Sacred Scriptures, it is even denied, in 1 Cor 13:2 and James 2, esp, but 1 John throughout also has this idea, as does 2 Peter 2. Paul speaks about it in Hebrews, and counsels the Corinthians not to grieve the Spirit who abides in them by doing acts that will keep them from eternal life.

The simplest one, to me, is 1 Cor 13:2. IF faith was an automatic conveyor belt that automatically did good deeds, we would NOT see "faith to move mountains" as NOTHING without love!

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

To be "saved" is to be rescued from the punishment which we deserve for our sins,

Which is what I said, in the negative sense. I state the positive, the forgiveness of sins.

and to inherit eternal life.

We are HEIRS to eternal life. The inheritance is not ours until death. Our hope is that we continue to be heirs of Christ, IF we SUFFER with Christ (Romans 8). An inheritance can be revoked, if we do not obey the conditions to receive the inheritance.

Those who are saved will go to heaven, and those who are not saved will go to hell. See for example Matthew 1:21, Luke 7:48-50, Acts 4:12, 5:31, 16:30-31, Romans 1:16, Ephesians 2:8-9.

Again, you are doing just what I said, intertwining and telescoping the multiple meanings of salvation into one definition. Those who NEVER receive the forgiveness of sins will not be saved. Those who receive the forgiveness of sins (salvation) must remain in that status, free of willful sins to enter heaven (the other meaning of salvation). Otherwise, the blood of Christ has NO EFFECT for such a one (Heb 10:27-28).

Jesus defined eternal life as being a relationship with God, which will never end (John 17:3).

Eternal life is Jesus Himself. WHEN we abide in Him, we have life. When He doesn't abide in us, we do not have life. What is eternal refers to Jesus Himself. That relationship lasts AS we remain in Christ.

"Eternal life" does not simply mean "existing eternally," because even the unsaved people throughout history will exist eternally. All humans will exist eternally because our spirits can never die or be snuffed out of existence. However, only those who are saved will have "life" eternally, because they will be in an eternal relationship with God. See for example John 3:15-16, 36, 5:24, 6:47, 11:25-26, 20:30-31.

Saved here = heaven.

It is quite clear that we can separate our relationship with God by grievous sins. Paul tells Christians in Galatians and 1 Corinthians that particular acts done by Christians, saved by the forgiveness of sins, that they can LOSE their inheritance to heaven IF they perform particular acts, such as theft and adultery. So does Peter. So does John. Really, there is no need to play the game of guessing whether God's Spirit came to you. The issue is whether He LEFT you because you kicked Him out by an act of willful sin AFTER being saved by the forgiveness of sins.

Just as the Spirit left Saul in the OT, and appears to have left Simon the Magician in the NT.

Regards

 

[Drew]

If by faith I accept Jesus work on the cross to save me, then I recieve salvation..

It is actually not that simple. Please note: Paul repeatedly uses both present / past tense language - "you have been saved" - and future tense language - "you will be saved" or "you are in the process of being saved".

Many in the reformed tradition simply flatten out and ignore these distinctions and presume that "when you accept Jesus, you are saved. Period". Well, that is not true to the subtletly of Paul's argument.

Yes, when you accept Jesus, you are saved in the sense that your future "works-based" salvation judgement will be favourable.

"And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace." (Romans 11:6) Grace is the undeserved favor and love of God toward mankind.

You are misreading "works" here. Paul is talking about the works of the Law of Moses here, not good works. He is saying "salvation is not for Jews only". Please check the context. If you do not see how context shows this in argument about the works of the Law of Moses, I will give further explanation.

Readings "works" as always referring to "good works" has tripped up many a well-intentioned person. Often, Paul uses the term "works" to denote the works of the Law of Moses. And that is the case in Romans 11:6.

 

[Drew]

God's children may be judged for their actions - but with a view toward reward, not toward punishment.

Hello, Aaron the Tall, Drew the Neither Tall nor Short here.....

If what you assert is true, how do you explain this statement from Paul:

6God "will give to each person according to what he has done." 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

Are you saying the church will not be at the Romans 2 judgement? If so, what would your argument be? If the church is not at the Romans 2 judgement, then we have the decidedly odd scenario where Paul talks about eternal life being awarded according to deeds when he, in fact, believes that there will be zero such persons.

Does that not strike you as odd? Do you make declarations about what will happen to people while believing that there are zero such persons?

 

[awaken]

If by faith I accept Jesus work on the cross to save me, then I recieve salvation..

It is actually not that simple. Please note: Paul repeatedly uses both present / past tense language - "you have been saved" - and future tense language - "you will be saved" or "you are in the process of being saved".

Many in the reformed tradition simply flatten out and ignore these distinctions and presume that "when you accept Jesus, you are saved. Period". Well, that is not true to the subtletly of Paul's argument.

Yes, when you accept Jesus, you are saved in the sense that your future "works-based" salvation judgement will be favourable.

"And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace." (Romans 11:6) Grace is the undeserved favor and love of God toward mankind.

You are misreading "works" here. Paul is talking about the works of the Law of Moses here, not good works. He is saying "salvation is not for Jews only". Please check the context. If you do not see how context shows this in argument about the works of the Law of Moses, I will give further explanation.

Readings "works" as always referring to "good works" has tripped up many a well-intentioned person. Often, Paul uses the term "works" to denote the works of the Law of Moses. And that is the case in Romans 11:6.

Drew, What was the Law of Moses? The Old Testament saints had faith in Jesus coming to reconcile them to the Father. Because of that faith...they obeyed the law (that is works). The same thing we are saying..we are saved through faith on what Jesus did on the Cross..therefore we obey!