Salvation by grace through faith; not through works / law-keeping.

[Jethro Bodine]

Then Jesus suffered and died in vain.

No, there is an eternity of sinless perfection waiting for us after the body is redeemed and we receive our glorified bodies. This brief time we spend waiting for that is but a fart in the wind compared to that.

He left us to wollow in that which He destroyed.

No, only if you allow it.
That's why Paul said to not let sin reign in your mortal body. Because that's what will happen if you let it, contrary to your sinless perfection theology.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Agreed, but you don't see that righteousness as righteousness.
You see it an an installment plan.

No, the declaration of righteousness the believer receives from God is a declaration of 100% righteousness.
We get a full cleansing bath the moment we believe and receive the gospel.
From then on it's a matter of washing the feet when they get dirty, not taking a bath all over again (John 13:10). (See, Jesus acknowledging the cleansing of one's feet after being completely cleansed).
And just like in your natural life, you probably don't get your feet as dirty as often as you did when you were a child on summer vacation. That is what it means to progress in sanctification.

Slowly growing cleaner by the day/week/year until...what?

Only in the sense that you're going to soil your feet less and less often as you grow up in your faith. For it is by faith that we believe the truth that sin and the flesh is not master over us anymore, and so through that faith in the truth we can resist it's lying voice, demanding that we submit to it's desires and bear its fruit, like we had to when we were locked into a 'marital' relationship with the flesh and had to submit to it by force of law (Romans 7:1-6). As our faith grows, we are able to do that more often, more easily (Hebrews 5:13-14).

You will be like me?
Or is the whole trip a waste of time and you will never be fully sanctified?

I don't know.
I don't dismiss the possibility that a believer can come to the point where they do not sin anymore.

I know that I have gone great lengths of time without committing sin. Years ago, not today. I'm battling new demons at this stage in my life, lol. New enemies to confront and do battle with on my journey in this desert place to the Promises of God. But I reject the condemnation of the sinless perfection doctrine that says this journey means I'm not born again.

What I categorically dismiss is the claim that a believer can be perfectly sinless right out of the gate when they first believe. That's a joke.

 

[Hopeful 2]

No, I agree with the Bible that faith without works is dead, being alone. It plainly says that. What I disagree with is the teaching that says faith + doing works is what makes you righteous.

What works would you consider as being done "to be saved"?
Telling the truth instead of lying?
Remaining monogamous?
Repentance from sin?

Faith + works shows that you are righteous with the righteousness of God (James 2:18), not makes you righteous with the righteousness of God. You become righteous by faith, all by itself apart from your works (Romans 4:6, Philippians 3:9). But this faith that justifies all by itself apart from your works is the faith that will then be seen in what you do, just as that was true for Abraham, or else it's not really faith, and that's why faith without works can not save you. It's not really faith.

Agreed.
The sinful are not righteous, so, have no faith.

 

[Hopeful 2]

I agree. But the point is growth shows you to be born again by the Spirit, as 2 Peter 1:5-11 shows us. This passage shows us that no one should be condemned by your teaching that you are not born again if you are not perfectly sinless. Growth in the traits of God shows that you are born again and that you can expect a rich welcome into the kingdom of God at the end of the age.

I disagree, as rebirth has only occurred to those whose old fleshly oriented self was killed.
If they are still committing sin, they have not killed the old man and are still living the old life.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Walking in the light does not mean "sinless perfection" as the scripture I gave so plainly indicates.

But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us. 1 John 1:7-10

• the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

The blood of Jesus cleanses those who walk in the light.

• If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves

If we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves.

• If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins.

The way we are forgiven our sins is by confessing our sins.

• If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

John plainly repeats again saying... if we say we have no sin, we make Him a liar.


Sorry but your "claim" that you are have no sin is false.


Walking in darkness means walking in hate, not "sinless perfection".

He who says he is in the light, and hates his brother, is in darkness until now. He who loves his brother abides in the light, and there is no cause for stumbling in him. But he who hates his brother is in darkness and walks in darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes. 1 John 2:9-11





JLB

You are saying there is darkness in the light?

 

[Hopeful 2]

You've been shown over and over where the Bible says we are saved now. Why are you ignoring scripture?

Because there is still a day of judgement coming.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Galatians 5:17-18.

"The flesh craves what is contrary to the Spirit..."

See, it stills speaks. It's not dead the way you say it is.

It is dead if you are walking in the Spirit.
If the flesh is not dead, you are not walking in the Spirit.

Elephants crave what elephants want, and trout crave what trout want.
If an elephant is reborn as a trout, it no longer craves elephant things.
Why would you think those who have crucified the flesh, and been reborn of God's seed, would still crave the dead mans things?

 

[Hopeful 2]

"The flesh craves what is contrary to the Spirit..." Galatians 5:17

Agreed, and probably why God made it possible to kill the fleshly oriented old man and walk after the Spirit instead.

It still speaks. It isn't dead the way you say it is dead. It's still tempting and provoking us. This clearly says it's the flesh doing that.

If it isn't dead, it wasn't crucified with Christ. (Gal 5:24)

 

[Hopeful 2]

That's right. And that was the point. Temptations come from the flesh, perhaps instigated and energized by the devil, but still they come from the flesh. And so the flesh is not dead the way you say it's dead. It's loss of authority over us by force of law is how it is dead to us (Romans 7:1-6, Romans 6:6).

And since this is true, we are to, by faith in that truth, not let sin reign in our bodies so as to obey its desires (Romans 6:12). Obviously, there would be no need for Paul to tell us this if we were incapable of letting sin reign in us as your false sinless perfection theology teaches.

Temptations come from the devil.
Those in the flesh will succumb to them.
Those in the Spirit will not.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Don't misunderstand. Conversion is instant. You become a fruit bearing tree in an instant when you believe. It takes time for the tree to grow and bring forth mature fruit as the husbandman cares for it and nurtures it, just as that is true of any fruit bearing tree.

That tree will never bring forth the fruit of an alternative seed.

 

[Hopeful 2]

No, there is an eternity of sinless perfection waiting for us after the body is redeemed and we receive our glorified bodies. This brief time we spend waiting for that is but a fart in the wind compared to that.

Why not live sinlessly now, to glorify the Savior that suffered and died for you?

No, only if you allow it.
That's why Paul said to not let sin reign in your mortal body. Because that's what will happen if you let it, contrary to your sinless perfection theology.

...only if you allow it.

 

[Hopeful 2]

No, the declaration of righteousness the believer receives from God is a declaration of 100% righteousness.
We get a full cleansing bath the moment we believe and receive the gospel.
From then on it's a matter of washing the feet when they get dirty, not taking a bath all over again (John 13:10). (See, Jesus acknowledging the cleansing of one's feet after being completely cleansed).
And just like in your natural life, you probably don't get your feet as dirty as often as you did when you were a child on summer vacation. That is what it means to progress in sanctification.

If God says we are righteous, we cannot be unrighteous.
That means we don't do unrighteousness anymore.

Only in the sense that you're going to soil your feet less and less often as you grow up in your faith. For it is by faith that we believe the truth that sin and the flesh is not master over us anymore, and so through that faith in the truth we can resist it's lying voice, demanding that we submit to it's desires and bear its fruit, like we had to when we were locked into a 'marital' relationship with the flesh and had to submit to it by force of law (Romans 7:1-6). As our faith grows, we are able to do that more often, more easily (Hebrews 5:13-14).

You are either clean or you are unclean.

I don't know.
I don't dismiss the possibility that a believer can come to the point where they do not sin anymore.

That point is their repentance from sin.

I know that I have gone great lengths of time without committing sin. Years ago, not today. I'm battling new demons at this stage in my life, lol. New enemies to confront and do battle with on my journey in this desert place to the Promises of God. But I reject the condemnation of the sinless perfection doctrine that says this journey means I'm not born again.
What I categorically dismiss is the claim that a believer can be perfectly sinless right out of the gate when they first believe. That's a joke.

Then the gift of repentance was pointless.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

What works would you consider as being done "to be saved"?
Telling the truth instead of lying?
Remaining monogamous?
Repentance from sin?

To become a saved person, or to be saved from the wrath of God when Jesus returns?

You do not have to do any works to become a saved person. That happens the instant you believe and and are justified, receiving the imputation of God's righteousness.

But to be saved from the wrath of God on the Day of Judgement you must have the works of obedience that will serve as the evidence of having been justified by faith in Jesus apart from works. For the Bible is clear that it is upon the evidence of our works that the sheep go into the kingdom and the goats go into the fire. This is in no way a moment when sheep become sheep and they become saved. They are already saved sheep, for the sheep are already sorted from the goats prior to Jesus passing judgment on them, the sheep on his right, and the goats on his left. Matthew 25:31-46

 

[Hopeful 2]

To become a saved person, or to be saved from the wrath of God when Jesus returns?

They are the same thing.

You do not have to do any works to become a saved person. That happens the instant you believe and and are justified, receiving the imputation of God's righteousness.

I realize that the works you refer to are of the Law, circumcision, dietary rules, etc., but if one doesn't repent of sin and get their past sins washed away by the blood of Christ at water baptism into Christ and into His death and burial, how can they be labeled as "saved"?

But to be saved from the wrath of God on the Day of Judgement you must have the works of obedience that will serve as the evidence of having been justified by faith in Jesus apart from works. For the Bible is clear that it is upon the evidence of our works that the sheep go into the kingdom and the goats go into the fire. This is in no way a moment when sheep become sheep and they become saved. They are already saved sheep, for the sheep are already sorted from the goats prior to Jesus passing judgment on them, the sheep on his right, and the goats on his left. Matthew 25:31-46

God does the sorting, not us.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I realize that the works you refer to are of the Law, circumcision, dietary rules, etc., but if one doesn't repent of sin and get their past sins washed away by the blood of Christ at water baptism into Christ and into His death and burial, how can they be labeled as "saved"?

Because in that instant of justification when a person believes that person is absolved of all sin guilt. So what sin guilt do you think remains that would somehow prevent a person from being saved then? Do you not believe in the forgiveness and cleansing of God? Obviously, you do not. For you are locked in a works salvation where you become saved on the basis of your performance. You are still in the old covenant. You have no inheritance waiting for you at the end of your life. You are a son of Hagar.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

They are the same thing.

Why do you ignore the fact that Paul says the Corinthians are presently saved if they are presently holding fast the word of the gospel on which they stand? 1 Corinthians 15:1-2

 

[Jethro Bodine]

God does the sorting, not us.

Why are you ignoring the fact that everybody is first sorted sheep from goat before they are judged by Jesus? Matthew 25:32-33.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

If God says we are righteous, we cannot be unrighteous.

How can a person who's sins are instantly forgiven and continue to be forgiven somehow not be righteous, being completely absolved of sin guilt by the blood they believe and trust in?

That means we don't do unrighteousness anymore.

From time to time we will behave un-righteously after being declared righteous. That does not take away our sinless 100% righteous status before God because we continue to be absolved of sin guilt through our continuing faith in the blood of Christ. A person has to go back to unbelief to no longer be sustained as 100% righteous before God through faith in Jesus' blood. All people who continue to believe in Jesus continue to be 100% righteous before God because of the continuing forgiveness of God they believe and trust in.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You are either clean or you are unclean.

Through our continuing faith in the blood of Christ we remain clean. You would have to reject Christ and go back to unbelief to remain in the uncleanness of your sin.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

That point is their repentance from sin.

You do not know what repentance means. It does not mean sinlessness.