Salvation by grace through faith; not through works / law-keeping.

[Hopeful 2]

Well, I didn't expect you to acknowledge the 'ever increasing' part of my post, lol. 2 Peter 1:8 NIV

Lack of growth is tantamount to death.

 

[Hopeful 2]

That's what I said.

Meanwhile, born again, saved believers are changed, converted, and increasing in the fruits and traits of the Spirit.

Amen !
Thought the "saved" portion has to await the return of Christ.

 

[Hopeful 2]

And this death that you think Paul is talking about is why the old man still speaks, right?

The old man doesn't speak, or do anything else.
He is dead.

 

[Hopeful 2]

No, the Bible says it's the flesh.

Where?

If it's not that then it has to be the seed of God doing that in a person.

Temptations don't come from the seed of God.

Your theology just doesn't add up. You have to keep inventing illogical answers to get around the obvious fact that in no way does being born again mean you never ever sin, not even once in the slightest of ways, not even in regard to committing sins of omission. You have the testimony, now and of centuries past, of countless born again people that know being a child of God means growing up into sinning less and less vs. the testimony of, what, 300 people I think you said it was in your sinless perfection church.

Sorry you can't believe what the faithful have believed for centuries.
I am equally saddened that you believe conversion can't happen in a second.
Your gradual conversion theory is not of God.

 

[Hopeful 2]

You obviously don't know what Paul means to reckon yourself dead to sin. It doesn't mean you can't sin. It means you are to, by faith, believe that you do not have to give into the corrupt desires of the flesh when they speak to you.

I see "reckon yourself" as "consider yourself"
In this case "dead".

That would not be necessary if it was true that born again people can't ever sin. If that were true, Paul, nor anyone in all of church history would have to write anything about the necessity for born again people to resist sin and count themselves dead to it if it were true that they can't sin.

We need reminders to keep us on out toes against a wily devil.
New things arise every day to redirect our efforts.
Christians can become ex-Christians in a heart beat.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Surely, the voice of demons is a source from which the flesh is aroused to sin. But why do we have to be told to resist the devil when he tempts us to commit sin that we are as born again people are utterly incapable of committing?

If we are not told, will will grow lazy.
Besides, not all the readers of the epistles are believers yet.
Some, like me, only came to the realization I could be 100% free after I met others who had been free for years.
God knew what I wanted and supplied the ways and means.
Thanks be to God !

 

[Hopeful 2]

Even as a Christian with the Holy Spirit inside of you, you will NEVER be righteous enough in thought and deed to enter into the kingdom of God. No one becomes righteous enough to enter the kingdom by being righteous. That is the works justification gospel condemned in scripture.

Then Jesus suffered and died in vain.
He left us to wollow in that which He destroyed.

The only righteousness that will qualify you to enter the kingdom of God is the righteousness of God given to you as a free gift of his grace when you believe in the gospel message, apart from and without your works of righteousness.

Agreed, but you don't see that righteousness as righteousness.
You see it an an installment plan.
Slowly growing cleaner by the day/week/year until...what?
You will be like me?
Or is the whole trip a waste of time and you will never be fully sanctified?

The ever-increasing traits of the Spirit will be used as the evidence that you have received this righteousness that is not of yourself and which comes from outside of yourself. But those traits are not the righteousness by which you become righteous. That is the theology of the son born according to the flesh, the son of Hagar. That son has no inheritance with the son born as the result of a promise. Galatians 4:23-30.

Why did God only make you 39% or 45% righteous?

 

[RBDERRICK]

Is the apostle John considered to be one of the "sinless men" brothers of Jesus?

At the time of his writing the first epistle, he said he was, and I believe him.

He was having fellowship with Jesus Christ walking in the light, where there is no darkness at all: no sinning and walking after the flesh.

In the Bible, walking in darkness is while sinning.

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us. 1 John 1:8-10

He also says if we say we have fellowship with Him while walking in darkness, or say we know Him while not keeping His commandments, then we are liars.

John is giving examples of how sinners can lie to themselves about their relationship with God.

He included himself in his own warning. Even as Paul included himself in his own warning against preaching another gospel.

They were showing they were humble, and did not believe they exempted from the judgement of God.

Christians who teach they still have sin, when born again, do not believe the gospel of the Bible, that says when born again, we are as newborn babes with nothing of the past remaining in us nor with us, but all things are now become new and all of God.

How can any new creature in Christ be freshly washed thoroughly clean, and still have sin in the soul? That accuses the blood of Jesus not doing what He says it does.

To say we have sin, when being made freshly new as a babe from the womb, is by unbelief in God's words to the contrary.

To say we have sin, while sinning, is honesty.

To say we have sin by sinning, but not condemned with the world, is the dishonest doctrine of another gospel.

The apostle John didn't claim to be sinless.

Not in those words, but he certainly did claim to be walking in the light, as Jesus is in the light, and not walking in any darkness at all.

He also said anyone claiming to do so while sinning, is a liar.

He also never claimed he was a sinner.

If we sin, means we are not now sinning. And if we sin, and say we still have no sin, we are lying to ourselves.

John says that would include any apostle and Christian.

 

[Hopeful 2]

It is to God.
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
Some teach His law was killed on the cross, ...

(Though it was)

...and even go so far as to say the only sinners are those keeping His law.
Their faith without works doctrine is a misnomer. What they really teach is faith with sinning and transgressing the law of God.

Agreed.

I see the point, but not accurate.

Sounds better than a gospel of lawlessness.

Before the NT is was lawlessness in Israel not to obey the law of Moses.

Yes, but even now, lawlessness is criminal to God

The gospel of lawlessness is faith alone while sinning against God's law.

That I can agree with.

 

[RBDERRICK]

Do you understand what "works" James is referring to?

If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

Good works by faith.

Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

Faithful works of obedience.

Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

Works of faith.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Ok. So, you don't agree with the Bible that faith without works is dead, being alone, nor will you say faith without works is alive.

No, I agree with the Bible that faith without works is dead, being alone. It plainly says that. What I disagree with is the teaching that says faith + doing works is what makes you righteous.

Faith + works shows that you are righteous with the righteousness of God (James 2:18), not makes you righteous with the righteousness of God. You become righteous by faith, all by itself apart from your works (Romans 4:6, Philippians 3:9). But this faith that justifies all by itself apart from your works is the faith that will then be seen in what you do, just as that was true for Abraham, or else it's not really faith, and that's why faith without works can not save you. It's not really faith.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

What shows you are a sheep does not make you a sheep.

Exactly!
You've stated it well (I may use the way you've said it in future posts about this subject).

Works of faith do not make you a sheep. Faith does that all by itself. But the faith that does that all by itself must be seen in what you do, or else your confession of faith is false and you really don't have the faith that justifies all by itself and so you will not be saved when Jesus returns.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

'Apart from works' is your impute. Show one Scripture where the Bible quotes faith 'without works', faith 'apart from works', or faith 'all by itself', as anything but dead and alone.

Until then, all such teaching about faith is not of the Bible, but of another teaching of man.

No, this is not just another teaching of man, but comes right from the scriptures:

1) Righteousness - the righteousness that is from God - comes through faith in Christ:

22 ...righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ... Romans 3:22

2) Apart from works:

6 ...to whom God credits righteousness (through faith in Jesus Christ-see above) apart from works: Romans 4:6

And so that is where faith 'without works/apart from works' comes from in scripture. The righteousness of God comes through faith in Christ, apart from works. We know that we have the righteousness of God that comes through faith in Christ apart from works by our works:

18 Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. James 2:18


If you disagree with this, don't forget that you yourself agreed that which shows you to be a sheep does not make you a sheep.

What shows you are a sheep does not make you a sheep.

And so you agree that there is no such thing as becoming a righteous sheep by having faith, and acting like a sheep. That is the works justification gospel condemned in scripture. As the scriptures above show us, faith 'apart from works' makes us a sheep all by itself. Faith makes you righteous. Works show you to be righteous.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Lack of growth is tantamount to death.

I agree. But the point is growth shows you to be born again by the Spirit, as 2 Peter 1:5-11 shows us. This passage shows us that no one should be condemned by your teaching that you are not born again if you are not perfectly sinless. Growth in the traits of God shows that you are born again and that you can expect a rich welcome into the kingdom of God at the end of the age.

 

[JLB]

He was having fellowship with Jesus Christ walking in the light, where there is no darkness at all: no sinning and walking after the flesh.

Walking in the light does not mean "sinless perfection" as the scripture I gave so plainly indicates.

But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us. 1 John 1:7-10

• the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

The blood of Jesus cleanses those who walk in the light.

• If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves

If we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves.

• If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins.

The way we are forgiven our sins is by confessing our sins.

• If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

John plainly repeats again saying... if we say we have no sin, we make Him a liar.


Sorry but your "claim" that you are have no sin is false.


Walking in darkness means walking in hate, not "sinless perfection".

He who says he is in the light, and hates his brother, is in darkness until now. He who loves his brother abides in the light, and there is no cause for stumbling in him. But he who hates his brother is in darkness and walks in darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes. 1 John 2:9-11





JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Amen !
Thought the "saved" portion has to await the return of Christ.

You've been shown over and over where the Bible says we are saved now. Why are you ignoring scripture?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Where?

Galatians 5:17-18.

"The flesh craves what is contrary to the Spirit..."

See, it stills speaks. It's not dead the way you say it is.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The old man doesn't speak, or do anything else.
He is dead.

"The flesh craves what is contrary to the Spirit..." Galatians 5:17

It still speaks. It isn't dead the way you say it is dead. It's still tempting and provoking us. This clearly says it's the flesh doing that.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Temptations don't come from the seed of God.

That's right. And that was the point. Temptations come from the flesh, perhaps instigated and energized by the devil, but still they come from the flesh. And so the flesh is not dead the way you say it's dead. It's loss of authority over us by force of law is how it is dead to us (Romans 7:1-6, Romans 6:6).

And since this is true, we are to, by faith in that truth, not let sin reign in our bodies so as to obey its desires (Romans 6:12). Obviously, there would be no need for Paul to tell us this if we were incapable of letting sin reign in us as your false sinless perfection theology teaches.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Sorry you can't believe what the faithful have believed for centuries.
I am equally saddened that you believe conversion can't happen in a second.
Your gradual conversion theory is not of God.

Don't misunderstand. Conversion is instant. You become a fruit bearing tree in an instant when you believe. It takes time for the tree to grow and bring forth mature fruit as the husbandman cares for it and nurtures it, just as that is true of any fruit bearing tree.