SALVATION IN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH

[GodsGrace]

One difference between Catholic and Protestants is that Protestants tend to think in all or nothing terms.
Catholics think in terms of growth (and I suppose decline).
Mortal sin totally breaks our relationship with God and total loss of grace.
But venial sin damages our relationship with God and we lose some grace from our souls.
(We see santifying grace as a quality of the soul).

Another important difference (as I understand it) is that Protestants tend to see this in legal and behavioural terms whilst Catholic thinking is in real terms. So when we are justified we are made righteous. Protestants see this in legal and behaviousral terms but in Catholic thinking righteousness is a real quality of the soul. It can grow and decline. Thus justification can grow and decline.

Regarding Sanctification, think of it as holiness. We can grow in holiness and become less holy.

It's a complicated subject. I think what I have written is correct Catholic thinking but I may not have got it quite right.

I'm not sure what you mean by the above underlined by me.

I'd say that Protestants do see justification in a legal sense, but only in the sense that God DECLARES one to be righteous. I think this is what you call real terms (not sure). When we are justified we are made righteous. This is a real quality of the soul. It can grow and sometimes decline...Protestants call this backsliding...if a person stops backsliding, they are still saved, if they continue to live in sin then it is possible to lose salvation.

Of course there are some Protestants that do not believe one could ever become lost after "accepting Jesus"...I believe the major denominations do not believe in eternal security but in conditional security...security that is conditional on reamining in christ, as Jesus says in John 15:5.

 

[Cooper]

"I am the way, the truth, and the life." That's what Jesus said.
Amen.

 

[Mungo]

You don't have it right! There is nothing in the Bible about mortal sin and venial sin. Those are manufactured, unScriptural terms.

If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not mortal. (1Jn 5:16-17)

 

[Mungo]

I'm not sure what you mean by the above underlined by me.

I'd say that Protestants do see justification in a legal sense, but only in the sense that God DECLARES one to be righteous. I think this is what you call real terms (not sure). When we are justified we are made righteous. This is a real quality of the soul. It can grow and sometimes decline...Protestants call this backsliding...if a person stops backsliding, they are still saved, if they continue to live in sin then it is possible to lose salvation.

Of course there are some Protestants that do not believe one could ever become lost after "accepting Jesus"...I believe the major denominations do not believe in eternal security but in conditional security...security that is conditional on reamining in christ, as Jesus says in John 15:5.

Thre is probably a variety of understanding of righteousness in different Protestant groups. But this is my understanding (mainly from an article by Catholic apologist James Akin)

Legal Righteousness: Protestants equate this to Justification. It is extrinsic to man and is acquired solely by God’s decree. God declares a man to be righteousness, whether he is truly righteous or not. He “imputes” Christ’s Righteousness to man.

Behavioural Righteousness: Protestants call this Sanctification. This is a growing disposition or inclination to do good. It occurs only after justification.

Ontological Righteousness: This is what Catholics normally mean by “righteousness”. This is intrinsic to man. It is a quality of the soul. It is a transformation, and growth, brought about by God.

 

[Cooper]

Salvation by faith for those living before Christ.

"This meaning of dikaiosune, right action, is frequent also in Paul's writings, as in all five of its occurrences in Romans 6; Rom_6:14, etc. But for the most part he uses it of that gracious gift of God to men whereby all who believe on the Lord Jesus Christ are brought into right relationship with God. This righteousness is unattainable by obedience to any law, or by any merit of man's own, or any other condition than that of faith in Christ....The man who trusts in Christ becomes 'the righteousness of God in Him,' 2Co_5:21, i.e., becomes in Christ all that God requires a man to be, all that he could never be in himself Because Abraham accepted the Word of God, making it his own by that act of the mind and spirit which is called faith, and, as the sequel showed, submitting himself to its control, therefore God accepted him as one who fulfilled the whole of His requirements, Rom_4:3.... (Vine)

Useful to know. Abraham and obviously others were made right with God. We read the same in Paul's letter to the Hebrews.

 

[jaybo]

If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not mortal. (1Jn 5:16-17)

The word "venial" is not in my Bible. (Am I allowed to say that or will you ban me here also???)(

 

[Mungo]

The word "venial" is not in my Bible.

The Bible wasn't written in English

(Am I allowed to say that or will you ban me here also???)(

No need to play the victim. Just keep to the rules.

 

[jaybo]

The Bible wasn't written in English

No need to play the victim. Just keep to the rules.

The first statement is meaningless. The word "venial" is an invented, unScriptural term.

I'm not "playing the victim". It's your interpretation of the rules that's the problem. Any statement I make that challenges your beliefs and you ban me.

 

[Cooper]

Salvation by faith for those living before Christ.

"This meaning of dikaiosune, right action, is frequent also in Paul's writings, as in all five of its occurrences in Romans 6; Rom_6:14, etc. But for the most part he uses it of that gracious gift of God to men whereby all who believe on the Lord Jesus Christ are brought into right relationship with God. This righteousness is unattainable by obedience to any law, or by any merit of man's own, or any other condition than that of faith in Christ....The man who trusts in Christ becomes 'the righteousness of God in Him,' 2Co_5:21, i.e., becomes in Christ all that God requires a man to be, all that he could never be in himself Because Abraham accepted the Word of God, making it his own by that act of the mind and spirit which is called faith, and, as the sequel showed, submitting himself to its control, therefore God accepted him as one who fulfilled the whole of His requirements, Rom_4:3.... (Vine)

Useful to know. Abraham and obviously others were made right with God. We read the same in Paul's letter to the Hebrews.

What I thought was interesting about the salvation of the Old Testament saints is that it was all due to their faith in God. We all know Jesus is the Saviour of the world, and wonderful and marvellous as it is, it was the pre-incarnate Jesus, the Saviour of the world who was the God of Abraham, Moses, and everyone else in the Old Testament. The one who is the same yesterday, today and forever. Thank you, Lord.
.

 

[Benadam]

Christ redeemed us by suffering on the cross. Catholics witness to a participation in Christ's redemption when we Sacrifice our members and offer them to the Father with His Son's as members of His Body.
This happens when Christians are persecuted. As an example of what happens in it's most visible way. Daily smaller sacrifices apply Persecution is a gift because it's an opportunity to ask the Father to forgive our persecutors.
This manner of suffering conforms in a radical way our suffering to Christ's. He unites our suffering to His. Then we have extended Christ's redemptive power into our time and circumstance . This is what Paul meant when he said



Colossians 1:24
Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:
Good thread @wonderingMungo. You two do well.

 

[Cooper]

Christ redeemed us by suffering on the cross. Catholics witness to a participation in Christ's redemption when we Sacrifice our members and offer them to the Father with His Son's as members of His Body.
This happens when Christians are persecuted. As an example of what happens in it's most visible way. Daily smaller sacrifices apply Persecution is a gift because it's an opportunity to ask the Father to forgive our persecutors.
This manner of suffering conforms in a radical way our suffering to Christ's. He unites our suffering to His. Then we have extended Christ's redemptive power into our time and circumstance . This is what Paul meant when he said



Colossians 1:24
Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:
Good thread @wonderingMungo. You two do well.

I wish people would turn their eyes more to Jesus and less to Mary.
.

 

[Mungo]

The first statement is meaningless. The word "venial" is an invented, unScriptural term.

It's not meaningless. It a word for a biblical concept that has no simple equivalent to the Greek; just as do the terms incarnation and trinity and begotten and many others. It's the name for those sins that at not mortal.

 

[Benadam]

I wish people would turn their eyes more to Jesus and less to Mary.
.

No one knows the mysteries of Jesus as deeply and thoroughly.
The Holy Spirit reveals a tradition of honoring Mary until Jesus returns is expected of Christians.
Does your Church have a tradition of honoring Mary?

If not, I wish all people honored Mary as God expects.

 

[jaybo]

No one knows the mysteries of Jesus as deeply and thoroughly.
The Holy Spirit reveals a tradition of honoring Mary until Jesus returns is expected of Christians.
Does your Church have a tradition of honoring Mary?

If not, I wish all people honored Mary as God expects.

I agree with Cooper: I wish people would turn their eyes more to Jesus and less to Mary. She is a very minor figure in the Bible and the honor, actually adoration, of her is way out of proportion to her significance.

 

[Benadam]

She is a very minor figure in the Bible and the honor, actually adoration, of her is way out of proportion to her significance.

The Virgin waited for since the fall? Minor character?...so blinded. Enmity. Amazing!

You know why so many pagan gods want virgins rounded up and sacrificed? They hate to see her elevated too.The enmity between the woman's seed and Satan's

She is first of many many things.
Faith is through hearing and hearing the Word of God. One of your favs. You think Jesus initiated that miracle on earth I'll bet. Nope
Jesus honored His mother by letting the sound of God's Word come from her first.
When the sound reached Elizabeth's ear Faith! She is filled with the Holy Spirit and her baby is baptized in the womb. Elizabeth recognizes her role and honors her for believing what was said to her. That's a reference to John the Baptist fathers response to Gabriel's announcement. He didn't have the supernatural faith required to respond like Mary. Let it be as you say.

Jesus elevated His mother above all of us. You hate to see it. Jesus isn't going to treat His mother like a nobody as you would want.

The world received salvation through Mary. True then True now.

 

[jaybo]

The Virgin waited for since the fall? Minor...so blinded. Enmity. Amazing!
You know why so many pagan gods want virgins rounded up and sacrificed? They hate to see her elevated too.The enmity between the woman's seed and Satan's

She is first of many many things.
Faith is through hearing and hearing the Word of God. One of your favs. You think Jesus initiated that miracle on earth I'll bet. Nope
Jesus honored His mother by letting the sound of God's Word come from her first.
When the sound reached Elizabeth's ear Faith! She is filled with the Holy Spirit and her baby is baptized in the womb. Elizabeth recognizes her role and honors her for believing what was said to her. That's a reference to John the Baptist fathers response to Gabriel's announcement. He didn't have the supernatural faith required to respond like Mary. Let it be as you say.
Jesus elevated His mother above all of us. You hate to see it. Jesus isn't going to treat His mother as a nobody as you would want.

The world received salvation through Mary. True then True now.

This was never true, then or now. Here is what the Bible says about Jesus' attitude toward His mother Mary and His brothers...

Matthew 12:46-50, "While Jesus was still speaking to the crowds, his mother and brothers came and stood outside, asking to speak to him. Someone told him, “Look, your mother and your brothers are standing outside wanting to speak to you.” To the one who had said this, Jesus replied, “Who is my mother and who are my brothers?” And pointing toward his disciples he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers! For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”

The world received salvation through Jesus Christ, not His mother!

So blinded! Enmity. Amazing!

 

[Walpole]

This was never true, then or now. Here is what the Bible says about Jesus' attitude toward His mother Mary and His brothers...

Matthew 12:46-50, "While Jesus was still speaking to the crowds, his mother and brothers came and stood outside, asking to speak to him. Someone told him, “Look, your mother and your brothers are standing outside wanting to speak to you.” To the one who had said this, Jesus replied, “Who is my mother and who are my brothers?” And pointing toward his disciples he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers! For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”

The world received salvation through Jesus Christ, not His mother!

So blinded! Enmity. Amazing!

His attitude toward his Mother? What attitude might that be?

Apparently you completely missed the lesson our Blessed Lord gave in the passage YOU quoted. It was not a knock against His own mother...

---> "For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother."


Jesus teaches that spiritual kinship to Him according to obedience is even more important than physical kinship (according to the flesh). Mary had BOTH of these, and is therefore uniquely blessed and thus deserving of the special honor given to her by Elizabeth and others.

"Blessed are you among women..."

 

[Cooper]

The Virgin waited for since the fall? Minor character?...so blinded. Enmity. Amazing!

You know why so many pagan gods want virgins rounded up and sacrificed? They hate to see her elevated too.The enmity between the woman's seed and Satan's

She is first of many many things.
Faith is through hearing and hearing the Word of God. One of your favs. You think Jesus initiated that miracle on earth I'll bet. Nope
Jesus honored His mother by letting the sound of God's Word come from her first.
When the sound reached Elizabeth's ear Faith! She is filled with the Holy Spirit and her baby is baptized in the womb. Elizabeth recognizes her role and honors her for believing what was said to her. That's a reference to John the Baptist fathers response to Gabriel's announcement. He didn't have the supernatural faith required to respond like Mary. Let it be as you say.

Jesus elevated His mother above all of us. You hate to see it. Jesus isn't going to treat His mother like a nobody as you would want.

The world received salvation through Mary. True then True now.

Jesus is the Saviour and miracle worker not Mary.

 

[Cooper]

His attitude toward his Mother? What attitude might that be?

Apparently you completely missed the lesson our Blessed Lord gave in the passage YOU quoted. It was not a knock against His own mother...

---> "For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother."


Jesus teaches that spiritual kinship to Him according to obedience is even more important than physical kinship (according to the flesh). Mary had BOTH of these, and is therefore uniquely blessed and thus deserving of the special honor given to her by Elizabeth and others.

"Blessed are you among women..."

Mary told the people to go to Jesus and do whatever HE said. She just stood by and watched him turn water into wine.

 

[Cooper]

The Virgin waited for since the fall? Minor character?...so blinded. Enmity. Amazing!

You know why so many pagan gods want virgins rounded up and sacrificed? They hate to see her elevated too.The enmity between the woman's seed and Satan's

She is first of many many things.
Faith is through hearing and hearing the Word of God. One of your favs. You think Jesus initiated that miracle on earth I'll bet. Nope
Jesus honored His mother by letting the sound of God's Word come from her first.
When the sound reached Elizabeth's ear Faith! She is filled with the Holy Spirit and her baby is baptized in the womb. Elizabeth recognizes her role and honors her for believing what was said to her. That's a reference to John the Baptist fathers response to Gabriel's announcement. He didn't have the supernatural faith required to respond like Mary. Let it be as you say.

Jesus elevated His mother above all of us. You hate to see it. Jesus isn't going to treat His mother like a nobody as you would want.

The world received salvation through Mary. True then True now.

Reflected honour.