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SALVATION IN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH

Benadam said:
No one knows the mysteries of Jesus as deeply and thoroughly.
The Holy Spirit reveals a tradition of honoring Mary until Jesus returns is expected of Christians.
Does your Church have a tradition of honoring Mary?

If not, I wish all people honored Mary as God expects.
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That would be like honouring the mother of someone like Einstein.
 
jaybo said:
The world received salvation through Jesus Christ, not His mother!
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The world did not receive salvation through Jesus.
This highlights flawed theological understanding that translates in flawed beliefs.
How can Jesus be received through Himself?
Jesus is salvation that the world receives through Mary.

Jaybo, if there is enmity between you and the Virgin, there is enmity between you and her seed.
True? And if you love truth you can acknowledge what is true about His mother. You cannot.
 
Cooper said:
That would be like honouring the mother of someone like Einstein.
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You don't understand how you mock God saying Jesus is equal to Einstein.
The mother of Einstein didn't give up her only Son for the salvation of the world.
I pray you overcome this bias because one day it may test your love for truth.
 
Benadam said:
I'm afraid to ask. Miracles belong to God. God worked miracles through His Son, and His Prophets and Saints., According to you God worked no miracle through the Blessed Virgin Mary?
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This is who I worship and the wonderful woman that she was, I fix my eyes firmly on Jesus. I am tired of arguments and so of necessity, I need to take advantage of the ignore feature. Bye.

For unto us a child is born, unto us a son, is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Isa 9:6 KJV

Jesus is the Eternal Mighty God, come down from heavens glory.
 
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Cooper , Benadam , jaybo
Please stop discussing Mary in this thread. There is are several threads on Mary in the Mary and the Saints section.
If none of them suits you then start another one there.
The topic here is Salvation In The Catholic Church
Thanks
 
Benadam said:
The world did not receive salvation through Jesus.
This highlights flawed theological understanding that translates in flawed beliefs.
How can Jesus be received through Himself?
Jesus is salvation that the world receives through Mary.

Jaybo, if there is enmity between you and the Virgin, there is enmity between you and her seed.
True? And if you love truth you can acknowledge what is true about His mother. You cannot.
Click to expand...

The world did receive salvation through Jesus. Read your Bible!

Acts 4:11-12, " This Jesus is the stone that was rejected by you the builders, that has become the cornerstone. And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among people by which we must be saved.”
 
Benadam said:
The world did not receive salvation through Jesus.
This highlights flawed theological understanding that translates in flawed beliefs.
How can Jesus be received through Himself?
Jesus is salvation that the world receives through Mary.

Jaybo, if there is enmity between you and the Virgin, there is enmity between you and her seed.
True? The world did not receive salvation through Jesus.
Click to expand...

If you think that the world did not receive salvation through Jesus, then there is no point in continuing this discussion. Read you Bible and pray for understanding of what it says!
 
I've often been...intrigued...by the RCC.

I kind of...don't see a reason to convert, in the 21st century. and yet...

sola scriptura is so limiting. the trinity is not -in- Scripture; this is a vital truth that God guided church leaders and thinkers towards. in my day to day (imperfect, often fumbling) walk with Jesus...

I look -outwards- , for signs and evidence of the Truth of Scripture. At first, it was deliberate; look at xyz, see abc, connect the dots to Scripture. and now...

thankfully, almost 10 years into Jesus saving me (very, very, very Southern, Protestant moment, with a DIY sinner's prayer, tears, then I turned on Christian radio, lol..), I'm kind of...blessed with enough of a Christian worldview to just see it, even when...honestly, I'd rather not. truth...not always the most comforting thing, ever.

As I dig deeper, I sometimes think...dedicated Protestants are often reinventing the wheel, for each and every generation...

and a good bit of it seems to overlap with the RCC, not so much at the denominational level, but more at the individual and group level. as in...dedicated Protestants seem to -somehow- come to similar conclusions as catholics, on issues such as poverty, the economy, war, the death penalty, marriage and family, and....other, hot button issues.

and I do want (need?) some Catholic..insight? input?..on my own salvation, as it (I) progresses. "work out your salvation with fear and trembling..."

stands to reason that a mix of Scripture and tradition and reason could be helpful, more helpful than "you're saved! put off the old, put on the new!" and..get a job. lol. :)

not that -all- Protestants are..that ridiculous. but it happens too frequently. that and "not them, come over here, with our flavor of Protestantism.."

blah.

Just as I often see fundamental Scriptural truths playing out around me -- in my own (thankfully, quiet and uneventful) life, and also when I check out the news and such to see what's happening outside of my bubble -- so, too, do I often see...

some Catholic concepts (which are themselves based largely on Scripture) seem to...make sense, "where the rubber hits the road," etc.

sorry to ramble. :)
 
Christ_empowered said:
I've often been...intrigued...by the RCC.

I kind of...don't see a reason to convert, in the 21st century. and yet...

sola scriptura is so limiting. the trinity is not -in- Scripture; this is a vital truth that God guided church leaders and thinkers towards. in my day to day (imperfect, often fumbling) walk with Jesus...

I look -outwards- , for signs and evidence of the Truth of Scripture. At first, it was deliberate; look at xyz, see abc, connect the dots to Scripture. and now...

thankfully, almost 10 years into Jesus saving me (very, very, very Southern, Protestant moment, with a DIY sinner's prayer, tears, then I turned on Christian radio, lol..), I'm kind of...blessed with enough of a Christian worldview to just see it, even when...honestly, I'd rather not. truth...not always the most comforting thing, ever.

As I dig deeper, I sometimes think...dedicated Protestants are often reinventing the wheel, for each and every generation...

and a good bit of it seems to overlap with the RCC, not so much at the denominational level, but more at the individual and group level. as in...dedicated Protestants seem to -somehow- come to similar conclusions as catholics, on issues such as poverty, the economy, war, the death penalty, marriage and family, and....other, hot button issues.

and I do want (need?) some Catholic..insight? input?..on my own salvation, as it (I) progresses. "work out your salvation with fear and trembling..."

stands to reason that a mix of Scripture and tradition and reason could be helpful, more helpful than "you're saved! put off the old, put on the new!" and..get a job. lol. :)

not that -all- Protestants are..that ridiculous. but it happens too frequently. that and "not them, come over here, with our flavor of Protestantism.."

blah.

Just as I often see fundamental Scriptural truths playing out around me -- in my own (thankfully, quiet and uneventful) life, and also when I check out the news and such to see what's happening outside of my bubble -- so, too, do I often see...

some Catholic concepts (which are themselves based largely on Scripture) seem to...make sense, "where the rubber hits the road," etc.

sorry to ramble. :)
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Thank you.
Please feel free to startdiscissions on anything related to Catholicism.

BTW do have a read of this thread -

Catholic Church vs Roman Catholic Church​

 
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JLB said:
There is no such thing as a Catholic or Protestant in the kingdom of God. Those are just man made labels that are designed to divide the Church.


The is only one way to receive eternal salvation.

One.

It's by obeying Jesus Christ.

And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,
Hebrews 5:9

There's not a Catholic way or a Protestant way.

There is only Jesus' way.

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. John 14:6




JLB
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Amen! also,

Galatians 3:23-29


​

23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Love, Walter and Debbie
 
not a Scriptural reference, but...

David Wilkerson -- the big time Pentecostal, gimme that old time religion, etc. David Wilkerson -- actually wrote a number of remarkably helpful essays for new(ish) believers. I was (and am) struck by how compassionate, well-written (not that I thought he was stupid, just...he had a good writing style...), thoroughly Biblical, and...humane his essays seemed to be me over 10 years ago, and...

now, too. again. :)

anyway, one of his essays was on following Christ...wherever you happen to be when you (generalized "you..." I get tired of writing "one...") gets truly saved. OK. So, he mentions (keep in mind; this is 60s/70s essay) a homosexual hair dresser who had come to Christ. He was still doing hair, still not into the ladies...

but pursuing celibacy and other, fundamental aspects of a genuinely Christian walk. I was once a flamer. Somehow, God has made me...foppish. and mellow. and not flaming (LOL), but I still...deeply appreciate that essay. moving on...

so, later on in that essay or another one, Wilkerson brings up the RCC "issue." Thing about it is...salvation is -not- found in the RCC because salvation is -not found- in any church. Jesus saves individuals, and He is no respecter of persons. and...

if I recall correctly, Wilkerson -- again, old time Pentecostal -- sees Jesus saving practicing Catholics...and they remain in the RCC. Sacraments, often there's a long family history, social connections are traditionally more important in the RCC (fun fact: sociologists noticed a lower suicide rate amongst Catholics in the 19th century...the theory was/is that it was more to social integration than to anti-suicide dogma...), and Jesus can move thru a faith that is dedicated to Him Its not as if they're locked in the basement of a Scientology center or involved in some polygamous cult junk. Its the RCC, lol. :)

Another point Wilkerson makes: persecution can and will occur -within- all established churches, and it will intensify as the end draws nigh. Borderline socialists like me tend to really, truly like Pope Francis. And yet...

the shifts, the rifts in the RCC...the politicization of the Gospel in the RCC...

concern me, in part because of that Wilkerson essay.
 
Christ_empowered said:
not a Scriptural reference, but...

David Wilkerson -- the big time Pentecostal, gimme that old time religion, etc. David Wilkerson -- actually wrote a number of remarkably helpful essays for new(ish) believers. I was (and am) struck by how compassionate, well-written (not that I thought he was stupid, just...he had a good writing style...), thoroughly Biblical, and...humane his essays seemed to be me over 10 years ago, and...

now, too. again. :)

anyway, one of his essays was on following Christ...wherever you happen to be when you (generalized "you..." I get tired of writing "one...") gets truly saved. OK. So, he mentions (keep in mind; this is 60s/70s essay) a homosexual hair dresser who had come to Christ. He was still doing hair, still not into the ladies...

but pursuing celibacy and other, fundamental aspects of a genuinely Christian walk. I was once a flamer. Somehow, God has made me...foppish. and mellow. and not flaming (LOL), but I still...deeply appreciate that essay. moving on...

so, later on in that essay or another one, Wilkerson brings up the RCC "issue." Thing about it is...salvation is -not- found in the RCC because salvation is -not found- in any church. Jesus saves individuals, and He is no respecter of persons. and...

if I recall correctly, Wilkerson -- again, old time Pentecostal -- sees Jesus saving practicing Catholics...and they remain in the RCC. Sacraments, often there's a long family history, social connections are traditionally more important in the RCC (fun fact: sociologists noticed a lower suicide rate amongst Catholics in the 19th century...the theory was/is that it was more to social integration than to anti-suicide dogma...), and Jesus can move thru a faith that is dedicated to Him Its not as if they're locked in the basement of a Scientology center or involved in some polygamous cult junk. Its the RCC, lol. :)

Another point Wilkerson makes: persecution can and will occur -within- all established churches, and it will intensify as the end draws nigh. Borderline socialists like me tend to really, truly like Pope Francis. And yet...

the shifts, the rifts in the RCC...the politicization of the Gospel in the RCC...

concern me, in part because of that Wilkerson essay.
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I like David Wilkerson. I have his book the Cross and the Switchblade, and we used to sing his songs. An excellent man.
 
Mungo said:
There is probably a variety of understanding of righteousness in different Protestant groups. But this is my understanding (mainly from an article by Catholic apologist James Akin)

Legal Righteousness: Protestants equate this to Justification. It is extrinsic to man and is acquired solely by God’s decree. God declares a man to be righteousness, whether he is truly righteous or not. He “imputes” Christ’s Righteousness to man.

Behavioural Righteousness: Protestants call this Sanctification. This is a growing disposition or inclination to do good. It occurs only after justification.

Ontological Righteousness: This is what Catholics normally mean by “righteousness”. This is intrinsic to man. It is a quality of the soul. It is a transformation, and growth, brought about by God.
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What you are calling legal righteousness, Protestants call Justification.
A person is declared justified when he turns to God because he recognizes his sinful life and wishes to turn to God.

Behavioral righteousness, yes, this is called sanctification.
Sanctification is life-long and is a process, as you've described.

I've never heard of ontological righteousness. In the Catholic understanding, I know that what Catholics call on-going justification is what Protestants call Sanctification.

And what does sanctification mean?
To be set aside to do God's work.


I've never really understood why these terms are so important.
Maybe it's because in Catholicism if a person commits a mortal sin, this stops the sanctification process.

In Protestantism, the process would not be stopped.
A person would just confess to God and continue on.

I must say, at this point, that the NT tells us there are some sins that lead to death = mortal sins.
I really have a difficult time believing that if I miss Mass, I'm going straight to hell.
The CC might be making some changes in this respect.
 
Mungo said:
One difference between Catholic and Protestants is that Protestants tend to think in all or nothing terms.
Catholics think in terms of growth (and I suppose decline).
Mortal sin totally breaks our relationship with God and total loss of grace.
But venial sin damages our relationship with God and we lose some grace from our souls.
(We see santifying grace as a quality of the soul).

Another important difference (as I understand it) is that Protestants tend to see this in legal and behavioural terms whilst Catholic thinking is in real terms. So when we are justified we are made righteous. Protestants see this in legal and behaviousral terms but in Catholic thinking righteousness is a real quality of the soul. It can grow and decline. Thus justification can grow and decline.

Regarding Sanctification, think of it as holiness. We can grow in holiness and become less holy.

It's a complicated subject. I think what I have written is correct Catholic thinking but I may not have got it quite right.
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Protestants also think in terms of growth. Also decline, at times. From which one should recover.

Protestantism does not believe any sin will totally break our relationship with God, but it will damage it, and we must confess to God and continue on.
I feel that Catholicism is an all or nothing term, not Protestantism.

The CC recognizes different types of grace.
I don't see this in Protestantism, and I fail to see this in the NT, this does not mean it's not mentioned, just that I haven't seen it.

Sanctifying Grace:
This is a habitual gift (CCC no. 2000) that perfects the soul to enable it to live with God.

Actual Grace:
An intervention of God, whether at the beginning of salvation or during its course.

We can know if we are in God's grace by our fruits.
(CCC no. 2005)
 
jaybo said:
You don't have it right! There is nothing in the Bible about mortal sin and venial sin. Those are manufactured, unScriptural terms.
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The problem here Jaybo, might be in the translation.
In Latin mortal means of death, or to die.
In Greek, thnitos also means mortal, which is to die, or of death, having to do with death.

1 John 5:16 states that if one sees a brother committing a sin that LEADS TO DEATH.
Death is Mortale...
Mortale is Mortal.

A mortal sin is a sin that leads to death.
 
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