SALVATION IN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH

[GodsGrace]

Salvation by faith for those living before Christ.

"This meaning of dikaiosune, right action, is frequent also in Paul's writings, as in all five of its occurrences in Romans 6; Rom_6:14, etc. But for the most part he uses it of that gracious gift of God to men whereby all who believe on the Lord Jesus Christ are brought into right relationship with God. This righteousness is unattainable by obedience to any law, or by any merit of man's own, or any other condition than that of faith in Christ....The man who trusts in Christ becomes 'the righteousness of God in Him,' 2Co_5:21, i.e., becomes in Christ all that God requires a man to be, all that he could never be in himself Because Abraham accepted the Word of God, making it his own by that act of the mind and spirit which is called faith, and, as the sequel showed, submitting himself to its control, therefore God accepted him as one who fulfilled the whole of His requirements, Rom_4:3.... (Vine)

Useful to know. Abraham and obviously others were made right with God. We read the same in Paul's letter to the Hebrews.

We can say that Jesus died FOR ALL MEN.
Those that came before Him and those that came after.
In some way, Jesus atoned for the sins of every man that wishes to serve God.

 

[GodsGrace]

The first statement is meaningless. The word "venial" is an invented, unScriptural term.

I'm not "playing the victim". It's your interpretation of the rules that's the problem. Any statement I make that challenges your beliefs and you ban me.

Any sin that is not mortal, is venial.
You do not have to agree with this, but actually it's the same in Protestantism.

A sin that could lead to death is not believing in God or Jesus.
It could be an intentional murder. If you died before confessing to God, and being truthful about your sorrowfulness, you would definitely be lost.

 

[GodsGrace]

I wish people would turn their eyes more to Jesus and less to Mary.
.

What tells you this is not so?

I find it interesting, however, that there have been apparitions of Mary that are verified by the CC.
For instance, Lourdes is verified ... but Medjugori (?) is not.

There have been thousands of miracles reported at Lourdes, but only under 1,000 have been verified by the CC.

The church is very careful about verifying anything, so I tend to believe it when it does so declare.

This might be the reason why Mary is so much more venerated in the CC.
I don't see anything wrong with this as long as it stays within bounds.

Jesus is our savior.
Mary birthed our Savior.

 

[GodsGrace]

I agree with Cooper: I wish people would turn their eyes more to Jesus and less to Mary. She is a very minor figure in the Bible and the honor, actually adoration, of her is way out of proportion to her significance.

Jaybo,
how do you think Catholics understand salvation?

 

[GodsGrace]

Jesus is the Saviour and miracle worker not Mary.

This is not denied in the CC.

And how do YOU understand salvation to be in the CC?

 

[GodsGrace]

The world did not receive salvation through Jesus.
This highlights flawed theological understanding that translates in flawed beliefs.
How can Jesus be received through Himself?
Jesus is salvation that the world receives through Mary.

Jaybo, if there is enmity between you and the Virgin, there is enmity between you and her seed.
True? And if you love truth you can acknowledge what is true about His mother. You cannot.

Could you explain this better?

You stated:
Jesus is salvation that the world receives through Mary.

 

[Cooper]

What tells you this is not so?

I find it interesting, however, that there have been apparitions of Mary that are verified by the CC.
For instance, Lourdes is verified ... but Medjugori (?) is not.

There have been thousands of miracles reported at Lourdes, but only under 1,000 have been verified by the CC.

The church is very careful about verifying anything, so I tend to believe it when it does so declare.

This might be the reason why Mary is so much more venerated in the CC.
I don't see anything wrong with this as long as it stays within bounds.

Jesus is our savior.
Mary birthed our Savior.

You see it always comes back to Mary.

 

[Cooper]

This is not denied in the CC.

And how do YOU understand salvation to be in the CC?

Catholics tell me if you live a good life and confess your sins to the priest you will go to heaven.
.

 

[GodsGrace]

I've often been...intrigued...by the RCC.

I kind of...don't see a reason to convert, in the 21st century. and yet...

sola scriptura is so limiting. the trinity is not -in- Scripture; this is a vital truth that God guided church leaders and thinkers towards. in my day to day (imperfect, often fumbling) walk with Jesus...

I look -outwards- , for signs and evidence of the Truth of Scripture. At first, it was deliberate; look at xyz, see abc, connect the dots to Scripture. and now...

thankfully, almost 10 years into Jesus saving me (very, very, very Southern, Protestant moment, with a DIY sinner's prayer, tears, then I turned on Christian radio, lol..), I'm kind of...blessed with enough of a Christian worldview to just see it, even when...honestly, I'd rather not. truth...not always the most comforting thing, ever.

As I dig deeper, I sometimes think...dedicated Protestants are often reinventing the wheel, for each and every generation...

and a good bit of it seems to overlap with the RCC, not so much at the denominational level, but more at the individual and group level. as in...dedicated Protestants seem to -somehow- come to similar conclusions as catholics, on issues such as poverty, the economy, war, the death penalty, marriage and family, and....other, hot button issues.

and I do want (need?) some Catholic..insight? input?..on my own salvation, as it (I) progresses. "work out your salvation with fear and trembling..."

stands to reason that a mix of Scripture and tradition and reason could be helpful, more helpful than "you're saved! put off the old, put on the new!" and..get a job. lol.

not that -all- Protestants are..that ridiculous. but it happens too frequently. that and "not them, come over here, with our flavor of Protestantism.."

blah.

Just as I often see fundamental Scriptural truths playing out around me -- in my own (thankfully, quiet and uneventful) life, and also when I check out the news and such to see what's happening outside of my bubble -- so, too, do I often see...

some Catholic concepts (which are themselves based largely on Scripture) seem to...make sense, "where the rubber hits the road," etc.

sorry to ramble.

Hey CE,
It's nice to see you here.
I know you've always spoken about the CC.

Want to read something really nice?
Get the CCC
Catechism of the Catholic Church

Get the COMPLETE version...not the edited version.
Mine is pocket size and is about 889 pages or so.
Doubleday, NY

Read about the first 200 paragraphs,,,it's a real blessing.
You probably won't agree with every little doctrine,
but I'm sure you'll find most of the doctrine is biblically based.
Some of it is based on Tradition, writings from the Early Church Fathers,
those that kept our faith together, as you mentioned above.

 

[GodsGrace]

You see it always comes back to Mary.

I believe that both Catholics and Protestants understand that it is Jesus that died as an atonement for sin.
It is Jesus that saves those that wish to be saved.

The role Mary has is that she birthed our Savior.
I think she should hold a very important position even in Protestantism - which I do not see.

Even the Orthodox hold her on a high pedastal.
I mean, she's the Mother of Jesus. We should all adore her and venerate her
BUT NOT WORSHIP HER.

Now, I must say that personally, I don't mind if one of my threads go off topic...this happens when speaking about any topic.

However, we're going a little bit too far off now.

Do you have any idea as to what Catholics believe saves a person?

 

[GodsGrace]

Catholics tell me if you live a good life and confess your sins to the priest you will go to heaven.
.

Do you think this would save a person?

1. Living a good life.
2. Confessing your sins.

Why would these two ingredients cause one to be saved?


Keep in mind that Catholicism teaches that GOD forgives sins, not the priest.
The priest just states it as fact so that the person could be reassured.

 

[Cooper]

I believe that both Catholics and Protestants understand that it is Jesus that died as an atonement for sin.
It is Jesus that saves those that wish to be saved.

The role Mary has is that she birthed our Savior.
I think she should hold a very important position even in Protestantism - which I do not see.

Even the Orthodox hold her on a high pedastal.
I mean, she's the Mother of Jesus. We should all adore her and venerate her
BUT NOT WORSHIP HER.

Now, I must say that personally, I don't mind if one of my threads go off topic...this happens when speaking about any topic.

However, we're going a little bit too far off now.

Do you have any idea as to what Catholics believe saves a person?

I do not wish to say any more. Thank you.

 

[GodsGrace]

I do not wish to say any more. Thank you.

Thank YOU Cooper.
You're very reasonable.
I am Protestant, BTW.

 

[jaybo]

Do you think this would save a person?

1. Living a good life.
2. Confessing your sins.

Why would these two ingredients cause one to be saved?


Keep in mind that Catholicism teaches that GOD forgives sins, not the priest.
The priest just states it as fact so that the person could be reassured.

It's my understanding that the priest gives a recipe for forgiveness, e.g. say three Hail Mary prayers. The understanding is that one isn't forgiven if they don't do this. Am I wrong?

 

[jaybo]

Jaybo,
how do you think Catholics understand salvation?

I really have no idea. It seems to me that they don't really understand salvation, as it is part of Catholicism to perform all sorts of rituals for the forgiveness of sins, over and over and over. Our sins -- all of them -- have already been forgiven by Christ's sacrifice. All believers should be living a life of joy in the Holy Spirit, walking in the light of salvation and having the peace of God in our souls.

 

[jaybo]

I believe that both Catholics and Protestants understand that it is Jesus that died as an atonement for sin.
It is Jesus that saves those that wish to be saved.

The role Mary has is that she birthed our Savior.
I think she should hold a very important position even in Protestantism - which I do not see.

Even the Orthodox hold her on a high pedastal.
I mean, she's the Mother of Jesus. We should all adore her and venerate her
BUT NOT WORSHIP HER.

Now, I must say that personally, I don't mind if one of my threads go off topic...this happens when speaking about any topic.

However, we're going a little bit too far off now.

Do you have any idea as to what Catholics believe saves a person?

God is the father of Jesus Christ. Mary was the person whom He chose to give birth to His son. She is a minor figure in the New Testament. The attention (adoration) of her is way out of proportion to her importance in the Bible.

 

[GodsGrace]

It's my understanding that the priest gives a recipe for forgiveness, e.g. say three Hail Mary prayers. The understanding is that one isn't forgiven if they don't do this. Am I wrong?

Yes. This is wrong.
The priest gives some kind of penance if he feels it's necessary to make the person THINK about their sins and to pray to God for forgiveness and reconciliation in a way that may seem more "solid" to them.
If a priest knows a person and their habits, he acts accordingly.

I don't know any priest that gives the three Hail Marys you're talking about except maybe to children.
To adults they many times will go over some verses in scripture that may pertain to the sin and help the person in some way or other that is personal.

There are some times that a priest will NOT state the forgiveness of a sin.
1. The person is not repentant.
2. The person believes they will commit the same sin again.

Just like a Protestant asks for forgiveness:
He must be sorry for his sin.
He must, at least, believe he will not do it again.
(although, we many times fall into the same sin).

 

[GodsGrace]

I really have no idea. It seems to me that they don't really understand salvation, as it is part of Catholicism to perform all sorts of rituals for the forgiveness of sins, over and over and over. Our sins -- all of them -- have already been forgiven by Christ's sacrifice. All believers should be living a life of joy in the Holy Spirit, walking in the light of salvation and having the peace of God in our souls.

Well, here is something I heard a priest say that seemed very important to me.

Catholics believe that the Holy Spirit is received at baptism.
But they get baptized as infants.
So how does this work?

The priest said, and this is correct teaching, that at some point in the person's life, he must ACKNOWLEDGE the Holy Spirit in his life and ACTIVATE the Holy Spirit.

IOW, the person must take advantage of the grace given to him from God...
Exactly the same way WE (protestants) must use the grace God gives to us.

 

[GodsGrace]

God is the father of Jesus Christ. Mary was the person whom He chose to give birth to His son. She is a minor figure in the New Testament. The attention (adoration) of her is way out of proportion to her importance in the Bible.

I think God chose an important person to be the mother of His Son.
I think Gods picking her is what makes her important.

I hear about Jesus when I go to a Mass.
When the bible is studied it's about Jesus.

 

[Christ_empowered]

-shrug-

I grew up liberal Presbyterian (dying denomination, btw). Infant baptism, then another baptism at confirmation...

because 13 year olds in (post)modern times are ready to live right, right? yeah...

I find it interesting that I'm oddly fascinated by the RCC, but the RCC regards -all- Reformed doctrine as anathema. In fact, I think their exact word is...anathema. So much for "separate brethren," etc. :-(

Fun fact: I was (online) church hunting, and...the RCC seems to somehow (barely) contain a lot of opposing elements within the overall organization. 1 semi-local church was/is...upper crust, and those aspiring to the upper crust. Next up...

a parish founded for the african american Catholics of the area in the 40s. Demographic and social shifts...now, its all about the (mostly poor, sometimes terribly so) immigrant/non-english speaking population -and- general misfits, too (I'm thinking that "the gays" and women have a more prominent role in this church). And...

yeah. I was on their list do to RCIA, but nobody got in touch with me till -the day of- , so I just forgot about it. They kept me on their email list, which was -super- helpful, because I got these notes on RCC doctrine 101, including the explanation of purgatory (1 Corinthians 3:15 , apparently....I still think its a stretch...), and...

yeah. I respect the RCC, I'm fascinated sometimes by the RCC...

I don't think I can sign up. For one thing, in modern culture, various churches are less big on doctrine, anyway...and conversion is...well, I don't want to say -pointless- , but I don't accept all things RCC, so it'd be kind of dishonest on my end. Plus, I'm kind of coming to see...

-shrug- I think a big part of the reason I wasn't contacted for RCIA is because of my local semi-notoriety/infamy. blah. My parents are well known enough for this area that I'm -known of- and my past was shady, now I have the "Schizophrenia" label, but I'm out and about, doing my thing, and...

yeah. Jesus saves. churches do their best when they facilitate His work in peoples' lives. "High functioning mental patients" (like...me, apparently...) occupy a difficult gray space, socially, and churches...all churches...exist in the social framework, and difficulties arise. -ugh-