Salvation is by FAITH

[Bubba]

This article may help those who do not understand the differemce in writng styles of James and Paul in regards to James 2:24.

http://www.opc.org/new_horizons/NH05/02a.html

Bubba

 

[Vic C.]

Good one Bubba!

from the link...

The Westminster Confession of Faith says it well in chapter 11 ("Of Justification"), section 2:

Faith, thus receiving and resting on Christ and his righteousness, is the alone instrument of justification: yet is it not alone in the person justified, but is ever accompanied with all other saving graces, and is no dead faith, but worketh by love.

 

[Drew]

The Westminster Confession of Faith says it well in chapter 11 ("Of Justification"), section 2:

Faith, thus receiving and resting on Christ and his righteousness, is the alone instrument of justification: yet is it not alone in the person justified, but is ever accompanied with all other saving graces, and is no dead faith, but worketh by love.

Is the Westminster Confession of Faith inspired scripture?

No it is not. Scripture is inspired scripture.

And I will take Paul over the Westminster Confession any day of the week.

And that is not to say that I disagree with what was specifically posted. But Paul is clear faith and faith alone marks out the people of God in the present. At the coming judgement though, the content of our lives will be the basis of our justification:

To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life

And even though people try to collapse justification into a choice - either faith or good works - Paul does not see thing this way at all. He presents justification in multiple tenses.

In the present, the true people of God are demarcated by one thing only - faith.

In the future, the true people of God will be identified (that is to say, justified) by the good works that have been done through them by the Spirit.

Another reason for all the confusion is that people misunderstand justification - seeing it primarily as a forensic term. Paul sees justification as being primarily a covenantal term. As such, justification is really about the issue of who is in God's covenant family. In the present, they are identified by the common faith they share. At the coming judgement, they will be identified by the works that are made manifest in their lives. Paul repeats himself no less than three times in a row in Romans 2 to underscore this point.

And yet it has been apparently missed by many in the reformed tradition (or so I will claim).

 

[Bubba]

Drew,
Would you agree that even our best deed or work is tainted with sin? If so, how can any of us stand in judgment with our own merits?
Bubba

 

[francisdesales]

Drew,
Would you agree that even our best deed or work is tainted with sin? If so, how can any of us stand in judgment with our own merits?
Bubba

Bubba,

Are we not "new creations in Christ"? Are all of our deeds tainted with sin while in Christ? We are not sinners and saints simultaneously.

Regards

 

[Bubba]

Drew,
Would you agree that even our best deed or work is tainted with sin? If so, how can any of us stand in judgment with our own merits?
Bubba

Bubba,

Are we not "new creations in Christ"? Are all of our deeds tainted with sin while in Christ? We are not sinners and saints simultaneously.

Regards

Struggling With Sin Romans 7:FF
"7What shall we say, then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, "Do not covet." 8But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of covetous desire. For apart from law, sin is dead. 9Once I was alive apart from law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. 10I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death.
11For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. 12So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good. 13Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! But in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it produced death in me through what was good, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful. 14We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[c] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to doâ€â€this I keep on doing. 20Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it. 21So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22For in my inner being I delight in God's law; 23but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25Thanks be to Godâ€â€through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin."

Francisdesales,
Now I would interpret this passage, as Paul after conversion and if so, then though we are new creatures (God spirit dwells in us and we have the ability to triumph over individual sins), we nonetheless struggle with the flesh. This we will do until glory. So, I have no problem with the understanding that Iam both a saint and a sinner saved by grace. In the Fathers eyes, He sees Jesus in my stead, thus that "covering" we discussed at a different time.
Grace, Bubba

 

[Alabaster]

James 2:24 - "You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone."

That is why Catholicism is labelled as a works based religion. You misinterpret this passage. A man's deeds do not justify him before holy God. The passage teaches that a born again spirit in man is re-oriented toward pleasing God and good works are a natural outflow of the indwelling Holy Spirit in a life. Regeneration first.

James 2:18-26
18Suppose someone disagrees and says, "It is possible to have faith without doing kind deeds."

I would answer, "Prove that you have faith without doing kind deeds, and I will prove that I have faith by doing them." 19You surely believe there is only one God. That's fine. Even demons believe this, and it makes them shake with fear.

20Does some stupid person want proof that faith without deeds is useless? 21Well, our ancestor Abraham pleased God by putting his son Isaac on the altar to sacrifice him. 22Now you see how Abraham's faith and deeds worked together. He proved that his faith was real by what he did. 23This is what the Scriptures mean by saying, "Abraham had faith in God, and God was pleased with him." That's how Abraham became God's friend.

24You can now see that we please God by what we do and not only by what we believe. 25For example, Rahab had been a prostitute. But she pleased God when she welcomed the spies and sent them home by another way.

26Anyone who doesn't breathe is dead, and faith that doesn't do anything is just as dead!

 

[Vic C.]

That is why Catholicism is labelled as a works based religion.

Trust me; there are many denominations who will quote this verse in defense of a faith/works salvation. Lets not make this a Catholic issue please.

 

[Alabaster]

That is why Catholicism is labelled as a works based religion.

Trust me; there are many denominations who will quote this verse in defense of a faith/works salvation. Lets not make this a Catholic issue please.

Of course you are right.

 

[francisdesales]

Francisdesales,
Now I would interpret this passage, as Paul after conversion and if so, then though we are new creatures (God spirit dwells in us and we have the ability to triumph over individual sins), we nonetheless struggle with the flesh. This we will do until glory. So, I have no problem with the understanding that Iam both a saint and a sinner saved by grace. In the Fathers eyes, He sees Jesus in my stead, thus that "covering" we discussed at a different time.
Grace, Bubba

Oh, I agree that we continue to struggle with sin, but that doesn't make us "sinners", as per the Bible's definition. A sinner, generally, is one whose general direction in life is geared towards sin, towards themselves rather than God. We see this again and again and again in the Old Testament, my brother. This idea that one must be absolutely perfect to NOT be considered a sinner is unfounded from Judaism.

I believe that a few verses in the NT are taken out of context that have led much later Christians (the reformers of the 16th century) to postulate that man is a filthy rag and is nothing in God's eyes. Such anthropology naturally leads to the false impression that we are sinners EVEN AFTER we have been supposedly transformed by God Himself!

Yes, we struggle, but does that mean we are no longer just in God's eyes? Don't we continue to work out our salvation in fear and trembling - with God moving our will? Is not the seeking of God in faith pleasing to God? What is your take on the father in the prodigal son parable? Did the father cut off his love for his son? Despite his failings, was not the son still offered forgiveness?

Yes, my brother, we sin, but God ALWAYS offers forgiveness to those who return to Him. "Sinners" do not repent. Just because we falter does not make us "sinners", just as when our children fail, we do not cast them out of the family.

Regards

 

[Bubba]

Francisdesales wrote:

Oh, I agree that we continue to struggle with sin, but that doesn't make us "sinners", as per the Bible's definition. A sinner, generally, is one whose general direction in life is geared towards sin, towards themselves rather than God. We see this again and again and again in the Old Testament, my brother. This idea that one must be absolutely perfect to NOT be considered a sinner is unfounded from Judaism.

I think we are probably in more agreement then not. The definition or meaning that you are placing on “sinner†may be the reason of our different perspective. I do not see a sinner as reprobate but as the flesh that we all continue to struggle with after conversion. I think you equate the word “sinner†as something other then a new creation or saint, in that “sinner†is by nature gravitating to sin, where a saint does not normally, because their nature is different. Would you agree if I said that we simultaneously struggle with the “flesh†and are simultaneously “saints�

Francisdesales wrote:

I believe that a few verses in the NT are taken out of context that have led much later Christians (the reformers of the 16th century) to postulate that man is a filthy rag and is nothing in God's eyes. Such anthropology naturally leads to the false impression that we are sinners EVEN AFTER we have been supposedly transformed by God Himself!

Again, our definition of “sinners†may be different. Yet, I know that I need to work through much Reform rhetoric that I have been indoctrinated with for the last 18 years. I started out in the RCC, and left when I was about 12, due to my divorce mother leaving the church. The Lord reconnected with me at 21 and at that time was involved in Arminian base theology until 1990. I personally believe, that all creation is more then “filthy†rags, because though we are fallen, God nonetheless has a general grace (not saving grace) that can be seen in even the unbeliever, in the form of love, laughter, joy, beauty and etc..

Francisdesales wrote:

Yes, we struggle, but does that mean we are no longer just in God's eyes? Don't we continue to work out our salvation in fear and trembling - with God moving our will? Is not the seeking of God in faith pleasing to God? What is your take on the father in the prodigal son parable? Did the father cut off his love for his son? Despite his failings, was not the son still offered forgiveness?

I believe that anything we are able to do that is pure, worthy or good comes from God (for the unbeliever also). For the elect (you and I), we struggle with sin and it bothers us because we are a new creation and it is no longer the consequence of sin that is our chief reason to behave, but our love for the Father. Philippians 2:12 is an interesting verseâ€Â…work out your salvation with fear and tremblingâ€Â. I may be incorrect, but I associate verse 13 with the “fear and tremblingâ€Â, that God is sovereign over our lives; “for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasureâ€Â. Coupled this verse with Eph. 2:10, we get the sense that God is working His deeds through us, which would give James 2:24 a completely new understanding in this context. That is, true faith, will demonstrate God sovereignly working in our lives.The Prodigal son is a great example that God the Father is always waiting for His sons and daughters to come to their senses (through revelation), turn, and come home. The prodigal did not seek the Father’s refuge until his life ran the course of circumstance and finally hitting bottom. Only then did he realize what he had left and what he had become.I believe God orchestrates our lives and even uses our sinful behaviors to bring us to in end of ourselves, if not in this life the next. Such is His great love that He would pick up His skirt and run to the prodigal, which is all of us.

Francisdesales wrote:

Yes, my brother, we sin, but God ALWAYS offers forgiveness to those who return to Him. "Sinners" do not repent. Just because we falter does not make us "sinners", just as when our children fail, we do not cast them out of the family.

Those who sin and know the Lord repent often, I know in my life that is the case. The Father does not cast off His children from the rest of the family forever, only for a season. My thought is, much of the confusion amongst the brothers and sisters of God, is this paradoxical truth of Gods sovereignty and mans responsibility. Yes man must seek, believe, persevere etc, in our realm, but in another realm as we cross the threshold of physica death, God says, “welcome My children, chosen from the foundation of the earthâ€Â.

Blessings, Bubba

 

[francisdesales]

Would you agree if I said that we simultaneously struggle with the “flesh†and are simultaneously “saints�

Certainly.

I personally believe, that all creation is more then “filthy†rags, because though we are fallen, God nonetheless has a general grace (not saving grace) that can be seen in even the unbeliever, in the form of love, laughter, joy, beauty and etc..

That's good to hear. Christians often lose the balance required to understand the totality of revelation. Creation is good - but without God is worthless. Fortunately, our God is ever-close to us. Thus, there is no need to look upon mankind as filthy rags.

I believe that anything we are able to do that is pure, worthy or good comes from God (for the unbeliever also). For the elect (you and I), we struggle with sin and it bothers us because we are a new creation and it is no longer the consequence of sin that is our chief reason to behave, but our love for the Father.

Sure, Jesus said as much in John's Gospel. We can do no good without Him. Now, if WE cannot do good without Him, certainly, neither can the pagan. In some manner, the Spirit of God is even active, to a lesser degree, in the pagan. Love is of God, so WHEN the pagan loves, it must be a desire instilled and moved by God. Otherwise, there would be the possibility that man could save himself.

Philippians 2:12 is an interesting verseâ€Â…work out your salvation with fear and tremblingâ€Â. I may be incorrect, but I associate verse 13 with the “fear and tremblingâ€Â, that God is sovereign over our lives; “for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasureâ€Â. Coupled this verse with Eph. 2:10, we get the sense that God is working His deeds through us, which would give James 2:24 a completely new understanding in this context. That is, true faith, will demonstrate God sovereignly working in our lives.

Yes, I agree with this line of thought.

The Prodigal son is a great example that God the Father is always waiting for His sons and daughters to come to their senses (through revelation), turn, and come home. The prodigal did not seek the Father’s refuge until his life ran the course of circumstance and finally hitting bottom. Only then did he realize what he had left and what he had become.I believe God orchestrates our lives and even uses our sinful behaviors to bring us to in end of ourselves, if not in this life the next. Such is His great love that He would pick up His skirt and run to the prodigal, which is all of us.

Yes, that explains why evil sometimes happens in our lives - so that we turn (return) to God, crying out to Him with child-like faith.

Those who sin and know the Lord repent often, I know in my life that is the case. The Father does not cast off His children from the rest of the family forever, only for a season. My thought is, much of the confusion amongst the brothers and sisters of God, is this paradoxical truth of Gods sovereignty and mans responsibility. Yes man must seek, believe, persevere etc, in our realm, but in another realm as we cross the threshold of physical death, God says, “welcome My children, chosen from the foundation of the earthâ€Â.

Very good. Christianity is full of such paradoxes. Rather than trying to understand one at the expense of the other side of the coin, we are to accept both - for example, God's sovereignty and man's free will, without overly worrying too much about reconciling the two. When one tries too hard to do that, it leads to one side being lessened or eliminated, and leads one astray from the tenets of Christianity. Thus, Calvinism is often seen as a return to the pagan concept of fate at the expense of man's free will.

Regards

 

[Catholic Crusader]

James 2:24 - "You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone."

That is why Catholicism is labelled as a works based religion.....

Yes, labelled by people who don't know what they are talking about. I know that some people do not like to be bothered with actual "facts", but here is what the church teaches regarding grace, justification, and works:

CCC 1996: "Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us..."

CCC 2010: "Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification..."

CCC 1992: "Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ who offered himself on the cross as a living victim, holy and pleasing to God, and whose blood has become the instrument of atonement for the sins of all men."

Catholics do NOT believe in justification by works apart from Christ. As usual, the Catechism (CCC) is out there for all to see, but people would rather parrot anti-Catholic rhetoric then bother to actually read what the Church teaches - and I don't mean read what the Church teaches according to Jimmy Swaggart or Jack Chick, I mean read what the Church teaches according to the Church.

I hope this clears things up a little for others reading this. You guys might want to read this link too: http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/1999/9911fea1.asp

 

[Alabaster]

How about what the Word of God teaches the Church? That is what it's about.

 

[Drew]

Drew,
Would you agree that even our best deed or work is tainted with sin? If so, how can any of us stand in judgment with our own merits?
Bubba

The answer lies in the distinction between "works" that are the product of moral self-effort and performed without the driving impetus of the Holy Spirit. Those works are indeed tainted and unacceptable.

But when the Spirit is given, the situation is different. In Romans 10, Paul alludes to the following "covenant renewal" text from Deuteronomy, a text that says that when the covenant is renewed, the Spirit will write the law on our hearts, so that we can do it:

Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. 12 It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, "Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?" 13 Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, "Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?" 14 No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it.

The death and resurrection of Jesus is the renewal of the covenant. And the giving of the Spirit is the means by which the "law" is written on our hearts so that we can obey it. People argue this way and that to the effect that Romans 3 proves that Paul was apparently having an "off day" when he wrote that stuff in Romans 2 about being justified by "doing good".

Not at all. Paul is entirely consistent. In Romans 3 he denies justification by the ethnic specificity of Torah (he does not deny justification by "good works"). And the state of man as described in Romans 3:1-20 is pre-covenant renewal. People do not see the history timeline in Romans 1 to 4 and mistakenly think everything in there is true for all time.

But the bottom line is that the works that justify as per Romans 2 are the works of the Holy Spirit in the believer, not works that spring from our sin-tainted self-effort.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

How about what the Word of God teaches the Church? That is what it's about.

Yes it is. And what is the Word of God? The Word of God is not pages bound in a book. The Word is a person: JESUS. Jesus taught the Apostles and the apostles & their successors teach us. The Word LIVES - it is not a dead letter on a page.

Jesus established a Church in the 1st century. The Church canonized the New Testament in the 4th century. The Bible is Church based - the Church is not Bible-based. I'm afraid you have it backwards

 

[Bubba]

But the bottom line is that the works that justify as per Romans 2 are the works of the Holy Spirit in the believer, not works that spring from our sin-tainted self-effort

I agree that it is the Holy Spirit working in us, but if the instrument is not completely pure, is the work accomplished without the taint of sin?

Bubba

 

[Alabaster]

But the bottom line is that the works that justify as per Romans 2 are the works of the Holy Spirit in the believer, not works that spring from our sin-tainted self-effort

I agree that it is the Holy Spirit working in us, but if the instrument is not completely pure, is the work accomplished without the taint of sin?

Bubba

Yes.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

But the bottom line is that the works that justify as per Romans 2 are the works of the Holy Spirit in the believer, not works that spring from our sin-tainted self-effort.

So tell me, do you have free will, or are you a puppet? I agree, we are moved by grace to do good works, but it is still our own effort to respond to that grace and actually get our butts off the couch and do them. The Holy Spirit does not move us like a puppet on a string. It is an act of the will to actually do those works. This is where you err.

 

[Bubba]

But the bottom line is that the works that justify as per Romans 2 are the works of the Holy Spirit in the believer, not works that spring from our sin-tainted self-effort

I agree that it is the Holy Spirit working in us, but if the instrument is not completely pure, is the work accomplished without the taint of sin?

Bubba

Yes.

On Christ part yes, but until we are in glory, the flesh still remains. Hopefully less (struggles with the flesh) then when we first believed. When was the last time you did a good deed when without any doubt that your motivation was completely pure?
Grace, Bubba