Salvation is by FAITH

[Alabaster]

On Christ part yes, but until we are in glory, the flesh still remains. Hopefully less (struggles with the flesh) then when we first believed. When was the last time you did a good deed when without any doubt that your motivation was completely pure?
Grace, Bubba

When the Holy Spirit prompts me to act on His behalf, it is my pleasure to respond without doubt as to whether it serves my flesh or not. I know I serve Him.

 

[Drew]

That is why Catholicism is labelled as a works based religion.

Trust me; there are many denominations who will quote this verse in defense of a faith/works salvation. Lets not make this a Catholic issue please.

Agree, it is certainly not a "Catholic" issue. I think the scriptures teach that ultimate justification is based on the works that we exhibit in our lives. And I am not Catholic.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Ah ha!! And is that response an act of your will?

 

[Drew]

On Romans 7:

I think that this text does not describe the post-conversion experiences or state of the Christian at all. Instead, I believe it is Paul's account of the plight of the Jew under Torah, analysed specifically from a Christian perspective. This interpretation differs significantly from the view that Bubba has presented. I can defend my take on this if time permits. Clearly, getting the correct interpretation for this text is key in respect to the issue on the table.

 

[Drew]

But the bottom line is that the works that justify as per Romans 2 are the works of the Holy Spirit in the believer, not works that spring from our sin-tainted self-effort

I agree that it is the Holy Spirit working in us, but if the instrument is not completely pure, is the work accomplished without the taint of sin?

This is a very good question for which I do not have an immediate answer. However, Ithink that whatever answer one might come up with, one still needs to deal with Romans 2 and Paul's clear statements that eternal life at the coming judgement is, in fact, granted on the basis of the quality of the entire life led by the believer. And many Christians, including many on this board simply refuse to answer questions about Romans 2. And that is very telling.

So, to be fair, I will post what I consider to be clear and valid questions about Romans 2. Many simply refuse to answer these questions. I present them for your consideration and for the consideration of any others:

1. In Romans 2, Paul writes this:

But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. 6God "will give to each person according to what he has done." 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

Do you agree that this requires you (who deny that good works justify) to believe that Paul intends us to understand that precisely zero persons will be given eternal life as a result of their persistence in doing good? Please answer "yes" or "no", but of course add any explanatory material that you wish. If you answer "yes", what do you think Paul intended us to understand when he wrote "7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life", if he, in fact believes that zero persons will receive eternal life in this way?

2. In Romans 2, Paul writes:

There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile

Do you agree that this requires you (who deny that good works justify) to believe that Paul intends us to understand that precisely zero persons will receive glory and honour and peace at the Romans 2 judgement? Please answer "yes" or "no", but of course add any explanatory material that you wish. If you answer "yes", what do you think Paul intended us to understand when he wrote about "glory, honour, and peace" for people who do good, if he, in fact believes that zero persons will receive eternal life in this way?

3. In Romans 2,Paul writes:

For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.

Do you agree that this requires you (who deny that good works justify) to believe that Paul intends us to understand that, at the Romans 2 judgement, precisely zero persons will be declared righteous in virtue of their obeying the "law" ? Please answer "yes" or "no", but of course add any explanatory material that you wish. If you answer "yes", what do you think Paul intended us to understand when he wrote about people who obey the law being declared righteous, if he, in fact believes that zero persons will be declared righteous in this way?

 

[Drew]

Ah ha!! And is that response an act of your will?

Even though this may not have been directed at me, I will answer "yes, the response is an act of my will" and see where this takes us.

And I am interested in your take on the Romans 2 questions......

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Ah ha!! And is that response an act of your will?

Even though this may not have been directed at me, I will answer "yes, the response is an act of my will" and see where this takes us....

My point is that even though we are moved by grace to do works pleasing to God, it is an act of our will, and therefore a "work."

You see, when Paul says we are not saved by works of the Law, he means woorks of the Torah, such as circumcision. And we agree. (After all, Paul had been a Pharisee, and for him "Law" and "Torah" are synonymous.)

BUT: Christ ushered in a new law, and the works he commands us to do are charitable, works of love, moved by grace, BUT WORKS NONE THE LESS. That is why in Matt 25: 31-46, it is those who do good works that go to heaven, and the ones that don't are damned. Look at the works carefully: They are not the dead works of the Torah, but works of charity which Christ commands us to do: Works of love. That is why this passage is the key:

Galatians 5:6: For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love

So we are saved by Grace alone, and and a working faith - a faith working through love (i.e. charity). But faith alone? Nope.

 

[Drew]

You see, when Paul says we are not saved by works of the Law, he means woorks of the Torah, such as circumcision. And we agree. (After all, Paul had been a Pharisee, and for him "Law" and "Torah" are synonymous.)

Wow, I thought I was alone in this. So we are on the same page so far.

BUT: Christ ushered in a new law, and the works he commands us to do are charitable, works of love, moved by grace, BUT WORKS NONE THE LESS. That is why in Matt 25: 31-46, it is those who do good works that go to heaven, and the ones that don't are damned. Look at the works carefully: They are not the dead works of the Torah, but works of charity which Christ commands us to do: Works of love. That is why this passage is the key:

Galatians 5:6: For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love

So we are saved by Grace alone, and and a working faith - a faith working through love (i.e. charity). But faith alone? Nope.

Given what you write here, I see you and I as being roughly on the same side of this issue. I kind of thought you were denying that good works played any role in the justification of the believer. My mistake....

 

[Bubba]

But the bottom line is that the works that justify as per Romans 2 are the works of the Holy Spirit in the believer, not works that spring from our sin-tainted self-effort

I agree that it is the Holy Spirit working in us, but if the instrument is not completely pure, is the work accomplished without the taint of sin?

This is a very good question for which I do not have an immediate answer. However, Ithink that whatever answer one might come up with, one still needs to deal with Romans 2 and Paul's clear statements that eternal life at the coming judgement is, in fact, granted on the basis of the quality of the entire life led by the believer. And many Christians, including many on this board simply refuse to answer questions about Romans 2. And that is very telling.

So, to be fair, I will post what I consider to be clear and valid questions about Romans 2. Many simply refuse to answer these questions. I present them for your consideration and for the consideration of any others:

1. In Romans 2, Paul writes this:

But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. 6God "will give to each person according to what he has done." 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

Do you agree that this requires you (who deny that good works justify) to believe that Paul intends us to understand that precisely zero persons will be given eternal life as a result of their persistence in doing good? Please answer "yes" or "no", but of course add any explanatory material that you wish. If you answer "yes", what do you think Paul intended us to understand when he wrote "7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life", if he, in fact believes that zero persons will receive eternal life in this way?

2. In Romans 2, Paul writes:

There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile

Do you agree that this requires you (who deny that good works justify) to believe that Paul intends us to understand that precisely zero persons will receive glory and honour and peace at the Romans 2 judgement? Please answer "yes" or "no", but of course add any explanatory material that you wish. If you answer "yes", what do you think Paul intended us to understand when he wrote about "glory, honour, and peace" for people who do good, if he, in fact believes that zero persons will receive eternal life in this way?

3. In Romans 2,Paul writes:

For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.

Do you agree that this requires you (who deny that good works justify) to believe that Paul intends us to understand that, at the Romans 2 judgement, precisely zero persons will be declared righteous in virtue of their obeying the "law" ? Please answer "yes" or "no", but of course add any explanatory material that you wish. If you answer "yes", what do you think Paul intended us to understand when he wrote about people who obey the law being declared righteous, if he, in fact believes that zero persons will be declared righteous in this way?

I found this article, but Ido not have the author who put it together. If you read it through, I think it will answer your points. Bubba
Theological Problem
It might seem that Paul is saying that A PERSON EARNS eternal life BY DOING GOOD. "What must I do to inherit eternal life?" At first glance Paul’s answer seems to be, "to earn eternal life you must patiently continue in well doing" (v.7) or "to earn eternal life you must do good" (v.10). In order to solve this theological problem, consider the following points:


According to the Scripture, what must a person do to have eternal life (John 3:16; 3:36; 6:47; 5:24; 11:25-26; Acts 16:30-31, etc.)?



According to the Scriptures, is eternal life something that a person must earn by doing good works and good deeds or is eternal life a FREE GIFT that even a sinner can receive by faith (Romans 6:23; 5:16-18; Ephesians 2:8-9)?



Paul’s teaching elsewhere in the book of Romans is that a person cannot get to heaven by his own good works (Romans 3:28) but only by putting his faith in Jesus Christ (Romans 4:5).



A very common misconception that people have is that GOOD PEOPLE GO TO HEAVEN BUT BAD PEOPLE GO TO HELL. But consider the following:
a) How many good people are there (Romans 3:10,12)?
b) How many bad people are there (Romans 3:19,23; 5:12)?
c) The Pharisee described in Luke 18:9-13 was religious, morally upright and one who practiced many good deeds. According to verse 14, will this "good" man be in heaven?
d) The penitent criminal who died next to Christ was certainly a "bad man", and yet, would he go to heaven (Luke 23:42-43)?
e) Will ungodly people be justified and saved (Romans 4:5; 5:6)? Will any sinners be saved and go to heaven (1 Tim. 1:15)? YES, HEAVEN WILL BE POPULATED WITH "SINNERS SAVED BY GRACE." If our hopes of heaven depended on how good we have been, NONE OF US WOULD MAKE IT!



We must keep in mind what Paul’s purpose is in Romans 2:7-10. This section does not deal with SALVATION, it deals with JUDGMENT. In this section Paul is not showing men how to be saved; he is showing men that they are lost and condemned before a righteous Judge. Paul is simply pointing out a fundamental principle of judgment: THAT GOD PUNISHES EVIL MEN AND REWARDS RIGHTEOUS MEN. In this section Paul does not discuss HOW MEN CAN BECOME RIGHTEOUS. He will do this later in Romans when he discusses the wonderful doctrine of justification (see Romans 3:24; 3:28; 4:5; 5:1 etc).



In Romans 2:7-10 Paul discusses and describes two groups of people:

CLASS #1 "Those who patiently continue in well doing" (v.7)
CLASS #2 Those who do not patiently continue in well doing (by implication.)

CLASS #1 Those who are not selfish (by implication)
CLASS #2 Those who are "contentious" (selfish) (v.8)

CLASS #1 Those who do not obey unrighteousness (by implication)
CLASS #2 Those who "do not obey the truth" (v.8)

CLASS #1 those who do not obey unrighteousness (by implication)
CLASS#2 Those who "obey unrighteousness"

CLASS #1 Those who do not do evil (by implication)
CLASS#2 Those who "do evil" (v.9)

CLASS #1 Those who do good works(v.10)
CLASS #2 Those who do not do good works (by implication)


Compare John 5:29 which also sets forth two classes: 1) those that have done good (LIFE); 2) those that have done evil (DAMNATION).


JOHN 3:19-21 sheds much light on our problem. Here we are told that those who do evil are those who hate the light (Jesus Christ) and who refuse to come to the light (Jesus Christ). In other words, those who do evil are unbelievers. IN GOD’S SIGHT, the person who does good or "does truth" is the person who COMES TO THE LIGHT (Jesus Christ).



3 JOHN 11 is also very important. "He that doeth good is of God (he belongs to God, he has been born of God, he is a believer in Christ) but he that doeth evil hath not seen God (compare 1 John 3:6: the person who does evil is an unsaved person who has never been born again).

Therefore we must conclude from these passages that CLASS 1 (see above) is made up of born again believers and CLASS 2 (see above) is made up of those who are unbelievers and who have refused to come to Christ.



No person in and of himself can do good (Romans 3:12). All of our righteousnesses are as filthy rags (Isaiah 64:6). Apart from faith and without faith we cannot please God (Hebrews 11:6 and Romans 8:8). In other words, apart from saving grace, every single person would be in CLASS 2 (see above)!



When a person is saved and born again, a wonderful thing happens! God makes it possible for the saved sinner to DO GOOD! This is because God now lives in this person and works through this person to accomplish His good pleasure. (Philippians 2:13). The saved person is able to perform good works (Ephesians 2:10). The believer performs good works not in order to be saved but BECAUSE HE IS SAVED. Good works are the result of salvation not the cause of salvation. As Matthew 7:17-19 clearly teaches, every saved person WILL DO GOOD and every unsaved person CANNOT DO GOOD.

CONCLUSION: Paul is setting forth the simple principle of judgment that God rewards the good and punishes the evil. Paul is dealing here with how people are judged, not how people are saved. In Romans chapters 3 and 4 Paul will proclaim the good news that God is able to save wicked people by His grace. We will then learn how men are saved.

 

[Vic C.]

Ha, speaking of Romans 2... I just want to make an observation and a brief comment.

Bubba wrote:
I personally believe, that all creation is more then “filthy†rags, because though we are fallen, God nonetheless has a general grace (not saving grace) that can be seen in even the unbeliever, in the form of love, laughter, joy, beauty and etc...

Joe wrote:
That's good to hear. Christians often lose the balance required to understand the totality of revelation. Creation is good - but without God is worthless. Fortunately, our God is ever-close to us. Thus, there is no need to look upon mankind as filthy rags.

Bubba wrote:
I believe that anything we are able to do that is pure, worthy or good comes from God (for the unbeliever also). For the elect (you and I), we struggle with sin and it bothers us because we are a new creation and it is no longer the consequence of sin that is our chief reason to behave, but our love for the Father.

Joe wrote:
Sure, Jesus said as much in John's Gospel. We can do no good without Him. Now, if WE cannot do good without Him, certainly, neither can the pagan. In some manner, the Spirit of God is even active, to a lesser degree, in the pagan. Love is of God, so WHEN the pagan loves, it must be a desire instilled and moved by God. Otherwise, there would be the possibility that man could save himself.

This general Grace that Bubba mentioned, I think it's tied into Romans 2:12-15. It ALL comes from God. Those who hear the Gospel can either accept it or reject it. Bubba and I have completely different points on what happens to the ones who reject.

Those who never hear the Gospel have that general Grace, that "the work of the law written in their hearts,". Bubba, in another thread, you posted this:

Francisdesales,
I have never considered the RCC response in regards to the lost not having a chance to say yes to Jesus. It begs the question though; are those in Burma and China better off then those countries where the Gospel is prevalent? My Christian knowledge base until late has been Reform theology (still is in regards to the sovereignty of God). I know that within Reform circles, the idea is that all people deserve eternal punishment, because of the doctrine of Total Depravity and “Original Sinâ€Â. This has been the way to rationalize the belief in eternal punishment, when compared to the complete holiness of God.
Bubba

Joe replied with this:

Is Jesus ONLY available to Christians? Not necessarily...

And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him 1 John 4:16

For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Romans 2:12-14

At least this isn't limited atonement, but it's not universal either.

I hopes this make some sense... to someone. 8-)

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Given what you write here, I see you and I as being roughly on the same side of this issue. I kind of thought you were denying that good works played any role in the justification of the believer. My mistake....

Well, thats great! In that case you may enjoy this tract:
http://www.catholic.com/library/Reward_and_Merit.asp

 

[Drew]

I found this article, but Ido not have the author who put it together. If you read it through, I think it will answer your points. Bubba

The article has what I believe are errors and it otherwise does not do justice to the Romans 2 text.

The material correctly points out the challenge:

It might seem that Paul is saying that A PERSON EARNS eternal life BY DOING GOOD. "What must I do to inherit eternal life?" At first glance Paul’s answer seems to be, "to earn eternal life you must patiently continue in well doing" (v.7) or "to earn eternal life you must do good" (v.10).

But the proposed answer is not workable and contains what I think are demonstrable errors.

In order to solve this theological problem, consider the following points:

According to the Scripture, what must a person do to have eternal life (John 3:16; 3:36; 6:47; 5:24; 11:25-26; Acts 16:30-31, etc.)?

These texts are speak truth - believe and you will get eternal life. But, and we need to be careful in our logic here, this simply does not rule out the possiblity that, at the end of life, we will be justified by the good works we exhibit, as Paul clearly teaches in Romans 2. How can I say this? If belief in the present brings the Spirit, and the Spirit then does works through us, then it is indeed true that faith ensure justification at the end, while not being the grounds of that justification. Faith results in the giving of the Spirit, and the Spirit brings the works that Pauls says will justify us at the end in Romans 2.

The problem with the position that I see you as defending is that it avoids answering the very specific questions I posed in respect to Romans 2. To be fair, those questions must be faced and dealt with.

IAccording to the Scriptures, is eternal life something that a person must earn by doing good works and good deeds or is eternal life a FREE GIFT that even a sinner can receive by faith (Romans 6:23; 5:16-18; Ephesians 2:8-9)?

Ephesians 2 has, I assert, been almost universally misunderstood. I suggest that it is easy to make the case that what Paul denies in Ephesians 2 is justification by the works of Torah. This is not the same as denying justification by "good works". And that's fortunate, since Romans 2 clearly states that, strangely enough, we are indeed justified by good works at the end.

Paul’s teaching elsewhere in the book of Romans is that a person cannot get to heaven by his own good works (Romans 3:28) but only by putting his faith in Jesus Christ (Romans 4:5).

Romans 3:28 is about doing Torah, not good works. And I believe there is another error here. Although the Romans 4:5 text is almost universally deployed to support the position you are defending, the worker getting his wages by effort really is a secondary level metaphor - Paul is using the illustration of a worker earning wages in service to his argument but he is not denying justification by good works. Romans 4:2, where reference is made to "works" is, again, a reference to the Torah in particular, and not to good works in general. I can make the associated arguments but will not do so right now.

And there are, I believe other errors in the material posted. One of these is the failure to see the first 20 verses of Romans 3 as describing the situation before the covenant has been renewed. Romans 1-4 is a timeline of the covenant. And at 3:21, we have "but now......" The material in the first half of the chapter describes the state of affairs before God has intervened through Christ and "has written the law on our hearts" - so that we may indeed do it (reference Deuteronomy 30 that Paul alludes to in Romans 10).

I believe that there are similar errors in the second half of the argument.

It is all well and good to talk about other passages and how they might relate to Romans 2. But we still have to remember that Paul meant something when he wrote Romans 2:6-13. I politely suggest that the material you posted really amounts to a convoluted way of saying that Paul did not mean what he says in Romans 2:6-13. It would be one thing if the Romans 2 text were "open-ended" and begging for disambiguation.

But it is not. Paul (no less than 3 times mind you) makes clear statements that eternal life is granted based on good works. This is not really open-ended. The argument in the article effectively, if not explicitly, makes Paul out to be a very misleading and / or confused writer.

 

[Drew]

JOHN 3:19-21 sheds much light on our problem. Here we are told that those who do evil are those who hate the light (Jesus Christ) and who refuse to come to the light (Jesus Christ). In other words, those who do evil are unbelievers. IN GOD’S SIGHT, the person who does good or "does truth" is the person who COMES TO THE LIGHT (Jesus Christ).

But it is clear from Romans 2 that Paul is not equating "doing good" with belief and "doing evil" with disbelief.

Besides, this again paints Paul as an incompetent writer, since it has him choosing the very worst possible words (in Romans 2) that he could if he really wants to make it clear that faith and not "doing good works" is the path to justification. He couldn't possibly have been more ambiguous if your position is correct about his intended meaning in Romans 2.

People need to realize that it is a real mangling of meaning to slip this "doing good" = "believing" in here. Taking these kinds of liberties opens the door to anything.

Besides, context show us that Paul really means "good works" and "evil works". The following is material from Romans leading up to the 2:6-13 block:

Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.
You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. 2Now we know that God's judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. 3So when you, a mere man, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God's judgment?

How much more clear can Paul possibly be? He is not talking faith vs no faith but rather behaviours - what people do.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

JOHN 3:19-21 sheds much light on our problem. Here we are told that those who do evil are those who hate the light (Jesus Christ) and who refuse to come to the light (Jesus Christ). In other words, those who do evil are unbelievers. IN GOD’S SIGHT, the person who does good or "does truth" is the person who COMES TO THE LIGHT (Jesus Christ).

Thats a heck of a leap. There is a BIG difference between those who "refuse" Christ and plain old unbelievers. To use my favorite scenario: iI a little 5-year-old Muslim boy dies in a village AND NEVER GOT TO HEAR ABOUT JESUS, this being no fault of his own, he too can be saved if he lived according to whatever light God showed him. Now, he may be an unbeliever due to his circumstances, but he did not "refuse" Christ, because he never "heard" of Christ. So he would be an unbeliever, but the poor boy is NOT an evil doer

 

[Bubba]

I found this article, but Ido not have the author who put it together. If you read it through, I think it will answer your points. Bubba

The article has what I believe are errors and it otherwise does not do justice to the Romans 2 text.

The material correctly points out the challenge:

It might seem that Paul is saying that A PERSON EARNS eternal life BY DOING GOOD. "What must I do to inherit eternal life?" At first glance Paul’s answer seems to be, "to earn eternal life you must patiently continue in well doing" (v.7) or "to earn eternal life you must do good" (v.10).

But the proposed answer is not workable and contains what I think are demonstrable errors.

[quote:c8ef6]In order to solve this theological problem, consider the following points:

According to the Scripture, what must a person do to have eternal life (John 3:16; 3:36; 6:47; 5:24; 11:25-26; Acts 16:30-31, etc.)?

These texts are speak truth - believe and you will get eternal life. But, and we need to be careful in our logic here, this simply does not rule out the possiblity that, at the end of life, we will be justified by the good works we exhibit, as Paul clearly teaches in Romans 2. How can I say this? If belief in the present brings the Spirit, and the Spirit then does works through us, then it is indeed true that faith ensure justification at the end, while not being the grounds of that justification. Faith results in the giving of the Spirit, and the Spirit brings the works that Pauls says will justify us at the end in Romans 2.

The problem with the position that I see you as defending is that it avoids answering the very specific questions I posed in respect to Romans 2. To be fair, those questions must be faced and dealt with.

IAccording to the Scriptures, is eternal life something that a person must earn by doing good works and good deeds or is eternal life a FREE GIFT that even a sinner can receive by faith (Romans 6:23; 5:16-18; Ephesians 2:8-9)?

Ephesians 2 has, I assert, been almost universally misunderstood. I suggest that it is easy to make the case that what Paul denies in Ephesians 2 is justification by the works of Torah. This is not the same as denying justification by "good works". And that's fortunate, since Romans 2 clearly states that, strangely enough, we are indeed justified by good works at the end.

Paul’s teaching elsewhere in the book of Romans is that a person cannot get to heaven by his own good works (Romans 3:28) but only by putting his faith in Jesus Christ (Romans 4:5).

Romans 3:28 is about doing Torah, not good works. And I believe there is another error here. Although the Romans 4:5 text is almost universally deployed to support the position you are defending, the worker getting his wages by effort really is a secondary level metaphor - Paul is using the illustration of a worker earning wages in service to his argument but he is not denying justification by good works. Romans 4:2, where reference is made to "works" is, again, a reference to the Torah in particular, and not to good works in general. I can make the associated arguments but will not do so right now.

And there are, I believe other errors in the material posted. One of these is the failure to see the first 20 verses of Romans 3 as describing the situation before the covenant has been renewed. Romans 1-4 is a timeline of the covenant. And at 3:21, we have "but now......" The material in the first half of the chapter describes the state of affairs before God has intervened through Christ and "has written the law on our hearts" - so that we may indeed do it (reference Deuteronomy 30 that Paul alludes to in Romans 10).

I believe that there are similar errors in the second half of the argument.

It is all well and good to talk about other passages and how they might relate to Romans 2. But we still have to remember that Paul meant something when he wrote Romans 2:6-13. I politely suggest that the material you posted really amounts to a convoluted way of saying that Paul did not mean what he says in Romans 2:6-13. It would be one thing if the Romans 2 text were "open-ended" and begging for disambiguation.

But it is not. Paul (no less than 3 times mind you) makes clear statements that eternal life is granted based on good works. This is not really open-ended. The argument in the article effectively, if not explicitly, makes Paul out to be a very misleading and / or confused writer.[/quote:c8ef6]
Drew,
I am a fairly simplistic individual, so I see the Bible in two main categories; the “law†and “graceâ€Â. For the believer the “law†is what brings us to the point (after regeneration) where we realize that we need a Savior. Then the “law†can actually be accomplished by God working through us by the Holy Spirit, when see passages like Romans 2. This is why I responded to Francisdesales, that “working out your salvation with fear and trembling†is because according to the following verse (Phil.2:13), “for it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of His good pleasureâ€Â. Thus, our fear and trembling is the realization that God is working sovereignly in our lives. Eph. 2:10 states, “For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in themâ€Â. Now with this information we look at James 2:24 and see that faith will have works, if we truly are believers. So, Romans 2:7-10 are all yes to those in Christ and no to those are not. According to 1John 5:4-5, “For whoever is born of God overcometh the world :and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. Who is it that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?†My take on these verses is, if you believe on the Lord Jesus, you already have fulfilled the requirements of the “law†and in fact God is now working sovereignly in you. If you do not have fruit, then you need to honestly examine if you are really in the faith (2Cor. 13:5). If this does not answer your questions, then for now we are on different wave lengths. I am confident that God will sort out the particulars with each us in clarity someday.
Peace, Bubba

 

[Drew]

I am a fairly simplistic individual, so I see the Bible in two main categories; the “law†and “graceâ€Â.

I know you will agree that we need to go where the Scriptures lead us and not the other way around. I think that Paul make a distinction between the Torah and the category of "good works". He repeatedly denies that the former is not salvific and repeatedly asserts that the latter is.

And what could be "simpler" than taking Paul at his plain word in Romans 2?

For the believer the “law†is what brings us to the point (after regeneration) where we realize that we need a Savior. Then the “law†can actually be accomplished by God working through us by the Holy Spirit, when see passages like Romans 2.

I think I agree with you here, except that Romans 2 rather clearly establishes that these "good works" are the basis of our justification at the coming judgement - Paul clearly says so three times in succession. The Torah cannot justify, but "good works" is not the same thing as Torah.

My take on these verses is, if you believe on the Lord Jesus, you already have fulfilled the requirements of the “law†and in fact God is now working sovereignly in you. If you do not have fruit, then you need to honestly examine if you are really in the faith (2Cor. 13:5). If this does not answer your questions, then for now we are on different wave lengths. I am confident that God will sort out the particulars with each us in clarity someday.

Well we are a lot closer in our understanding than I thought. I am very sympathetic to what you post here. You seem to be saying "if the fruit isn't there, then the faith is likely not "real". And I see things exactly this way.

 

[Bubba]

JOHN 3:19-21 sheds much light on our problem. Here we are told that those who do evil are those who hate the light (Jesus Christ) and who refuse to come to the light (Jesus Christ). In other words, those who do evil are unbelievers. IN GOD’S SIGHT, the person who does good or "does truth" is the person who COMES TO THE LIGHT (Jesus Christ).

Thats a heck of a leap. There is a BIG difference between those who "refuse" Christ and plain old unbelievers. To use my favorite scenario: iI a little 5-year-old Muslim boy dies in a village AND NEVER GOT TO HEAR ABOUT JESUS, this being no fault of his own, he too can be saved if he lived according to whatever light God showed him. Now, he may be an unbeliever due to his circumstances, but he did not "refuse" Christ, because he never "heard" of Christ. So he would be an unbeliever, but the poor boy is NOT an evil doer

If I remember right RCC, still believe in Orignal Sin, and that all people from birth will sin. Romans 3:10 says "there are none righteous no not one", which would include a 5 year old Muslim boy who had never heard the gospel message. Thankfully, I believe God will eventually bring all mankind to salvation (1Timothy 4:10), but only through knowledge of Jesus as Savior. You must look at your theological stance in this regard, that a 5 year old Muslim child is better off being born in a country without the gospel according to your reasoning, because he only need to believe whatever light is shown him, which may not be much. This means a individual in a Christian country where he does hear the gospel (which is much more light), will spend eternity in torment for rejecting Jesus. I think it is clear, that no one will come to Christ or obey His commandments without first having revelation.Thus, salvation is totally of the Lord and not our ability to do anything.
Bubba

 

[samuel]

Salvation is by faith alone, works (fruits) are produced by a right hart. I agree with others no prayer is spoken of in the bible, Paul said first you must believe from your hart, then confess with your mouth.

Lets see by example. The thief on the cross acknowledged his guilt. He acknowledge Jesus as lord, when he asked to be remembered. Seems there was nothing else, and Jesus assured him, he would be with him, that very day in Paradise.

Seems its acknowledging the truth from a enlightened, and contrite heart.

You already have been given the gift of faith, before you acknowledge it, otherwise you could not. Peter said no man can call Jesus Lord, except by the Holy Spirit. So salvation is of the Lord, not man.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Salvation is by faith alone, works (fruits) are produced by a right hart. I agree with others no prayer is spoken of in the bible, Paul said first you must believe from your hart, then confess with your mouth......

Sorry my friend but we are not saved by faith alone. Paul says we are saved by faith, through grace, but he never says "faith alone". As I said in an earlier post: When Paul says we are not saved by works of the Law, he means works of the Torah, such as circumcision. And we agree. (After all, Paul had been a Pharisee, and for him "Law" and "Torah" are synonymous.)

BUT: Christ ushered in a new law, and the works he commands us to do are charitable, works of love, moved by grace, BUT WORKS NONE THE LESS. That is why in Matt 25: 31-46, it is those who do good works that go to heaven, and the ones that don't are damned. Look at the works carefully: They are not the dead works of the Torah, but works of charity which Christ commands us to do: Works of love. That is why this passage is the key:

Galatians 5:6: For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love

So we are saved by Grace alone, and and a working faith - a faith working through love (i.e. charity). But faith alone? Nope.

 

[Alabaster]

We are saved by faith. It is the transformation that results in our spirits that produces those good works. THAT is the outward evidence of one's inner transformation by faith in Jesus Christ! If there is no resulting works of righteousness, then there has been no true conversion by faith.

That is what the word of God teaches us.