Salvation is by FAITH

[samuel]

Faith comes first, Fruits of that faith follow. Where no fruit is produced, no true faith was present, just a bunch of words.

We are not new creations to do good works. But to walk in good works. That means fruits are produced naturally by the spirit, not man.

No command is necessary, if the faith is there, the fruits will be there.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Faith comes first, Fruits of that faith follow. Where no fruit is produced, no true faith was present, just a bunch of words.

We are not new creations to do good works. But to walk in good works. That means fruits are produced naturally by the spirit, not man.

No command is necessary, if the faith is there, the fruits will be there.

So tell me, do you have free will, or are you a puppet? I agree, we are moved by grace to do good works, but it is still our own effort to respond to that grace and actually get our butts off the couch and do them. The Holy Spirit does not move us like a puppet on a string. It is an act of the will to actually do those works. This is where you err.

 

[samuel]

Seems strange to me, I don't have to look for things to do, they just seem to find me. I don't have to force myself to do them, I just seem to do it. ??

The Pharisees thought they could please God, by dropping a few cents into collection boxes, and praying loud prayers on street corners, but it didn't seem to work.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

.
Matt 25: 31-46

 

[Alabaster]

Faith comes first, Fruits of that faith follow. Where no fruit is produced, no true faith was present, just a bunch of words.

We are not new creations to do good works. But to walk in good works. That means fruits are produced naturally by the spirit, not man.

No command is necessary, if the faith is there, the fruits will be there.

 

[samuel]

Matt. 25:31-46, These are things the natural man would not do, the Goats. But in the believer the spirit would naturally cause this man to do them, if indeed he has the spirit, the Sheep.

If you don't understand the workings of the Holy Spirit, I am afraid I can't make you. That is also a work of the Holy Spirit, a fruit of true Salvation. This one is called the Gift of Knowledge, something the believer gets from the Spirit. While the natural man, only has the knowledge that comes from books.

 

[mutzrein]

Faith comes first, Fruits of that faith follow. Where no fruit is produced, no true faith was present, just a bunch of words.

We are not new creations to do good works. But to walk in good works. That means fruits are produced naturally by the spirit, not man.

No command is necessary, if the faith is there, the fruits will be there.

And I say AMEN! to that too.

 

[AVBunyan]

Salvation is by FAITH?

Yes...but...whose faith is it?

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Here is a link to an mp3:

http://www.bringyou.to/ScottHahnBAM1990.mp3

This is an episode of the "Bible Answer Man", a protestant radio show. The guest is Dr Scott Hahn, a former Presbyterian who is now a Catholic and Professor of Scripture and Theology at Franciscan University of Steubenville, Ohio. It expounds on two often discussed issues giving good viewpoints for each side:

1) At the 10 min 40 sec mark, the topic of Salvation is discussed with an emphasis on Justification
2) At the 8 minute mark the issue of the inerrency of Scripture is touched on.

Perhaps it will help inform some the discussion

 

[BobRyan]

or a quick prayer mumbling the 'right words'.

Paul Washer mentioned this in the video. He said nowhere in the Bible will you find the words saying anything about asking Jesus into your heart.

Well.. you don't... there is mention of "belief" and "faith" - no 4 spiritual laws, no "say this prayer".

Faith is all about action... it must be lived out.

(btw: didn't watch the video)

No, there's no scripture saying that.
But it's a darn good starting point toward declaring repentance to oneself. It's a great form of admission as well saying I need a Savior and Christ is He. It's reflecting on one's sins, acknowledging the wrath of God and recieving the free gift of His Son. In short it's a professed surrender to Christ, that it is He who can save me from condemnation.
Admission to self. Confession of sin. Acknowledgment for the need of a Savior. Believing God and His Son. All these and more is within the prayer to ask Christ into one's life, to seek with a contrite heart and humility.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

What about Romans 10?

Rom 10
8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."

12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him;
13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."
14 How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher?

Acts 2 speaks of repentance and forgiveness - we see this also in 1John 1:9 "if we confess... He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins AND to cleanse us from all unrighteousness".

Rev 3 - "Behold I stand at the door and knock -- if anyone hears my voice AND OPENS the DOOR -- I will come in and fellowship with him"

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Here is a link to an mp3:

http://www.bringyou.to/ScottHahnBAM1990.mp3

This is an episode of the "Bible Answer Man", a protestant radio show. The guest is Dr Scott Hahn, a former Presbyterian who is now a Catholic and Professor of Scripture and Theology at Franciscan University of Steubenville, Ohio. It expounds on two often discussed issues giving good viewpoints for each side:

I like Scott's statement on the covenant in the OT --it reminds us of the fact that the ONE TRUE CHURCH of God begun at Sinai was under a "covenant". Clearly their "fall" proves that the magesterium of the one true church went into gross error as we see in Mark 7: 6-11

I also appreciate his argument that the Bible is true, accurate, authorotative and to be relied upon.

However -- I am "surprised" that the Catholic's here would recommend Scott or Catholic Digest or any non-Catechism, non-Pope source after having argued that we should not consider those sources to be "reliable" witnesses to describe Catholic practice.

1) At the 10 min 40 sec mark, the topic of Salvation is discussed with an emphasis on Justification
2) At the 8 minute mark the issue of the inerrency of Scripture is touched on.

Perhaps it will help inform some the discussion

Indeed -- reminds me of my Catholic Digest subscription in the section "What would you like to know about the Church".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Rick W]

What about Romans 10?

Rom 10
8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."

12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him;
13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."
14 How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher?

Acts 2 speaks of repentance and forgiveness - we see this also in 1John 1:9 "if we confess... He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins AND to cleanse us from all unrighteousness".

Rev 3 - "Behold I stand at the door and knock -- if anyone hears my voice AND OPENS the DOOR -- I will come in and fellowship with him"

in Christ,

Bob

Agreed Bob. "call on" is asking.

or a quick prayer mumbling the 'right words'.

Paul Washer mentioned this in the video. He said nowhere in the Bible will you find the words saying anything about asking Jesus into your heart.

Well.. you don't... there is mention of "belief" and "faith" - no 4 spiritual laws, no "say this prayer".

Faith is all about action... it must be lived out.

(btw: didn't watch the video)

No, there's no scripture saying that.
But it's a darn good starting point toward declaring repentance to oneself. It's a great form of admission as well saying I need a Savior and Christ is He. It's reflecting on one's sins, acknowledging the wrath of God and recieving the free gift of His Son. In short it's a professed surrender to Christ, that it is He who can save me from condemnation.
Admission to self. Confession of sin. Acknowledgment for the need of a Savior. Believing God and His Son. All these and more is within the prayer to ask Christ into one's life, to seek with a contrite heart and humility.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

I was thinking about saying a specific prayer like preachers do after a sermon or from those little flyers evangelists pass out. "Say this prayer and ask Christ into your heart. ......" "call on" isn't as specific as "say this" or "pray thus" as Christ taught us when we pray to the Father.
Yes, I agree. To "call on" is definately the basis.

Thank you for the post.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

.
Relevant magazine article here:
http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/1997/9710chap.asp

 

[Rick W]

Leave the Christian Digest on the table in the RC forum. That's where it belongs. Not out here.

Reminder:
There will be no debate of Catholic issues outside the RC forum. Yes, it's locked so bite your tongues until sunday night.
Please.

 

[BobRyan]

Leave the Christian Digest on the table in the RC forum. That's where it belongs. Not out here.

Are you referring to the response regarding the Scott Hann interview here as recorded on the "Bible Answer Man" ?

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=31939&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=75#p380254

 

[Rick W]

I'm refering to any Catholic dialogue Bob. It doesn't matter what, who or where beyond this line.

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[Catholic Crusader]

Reminder:
There will be no debate of Catholic issues outside the RC forum. Yes, it's locked so bite your tongues until sunday night.
Please.

Fair enough. Let me rephrase this to say that this is MY belief:

Paul says that we are justified by faith, but he never says faith alone. Regarding works, he says two things: First he says that a woking faith is what counts:

Galatians 5:6: For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love

...but he also says we are not justified by works of the Law. The only way to harmonize these two scriptures is to understand that when Paul says "Law", he means "Torah". After all, Paul had been a Pharisee, and for him "Law" and "Torah" are synonymous. (In fact thew Hebrew word for Law IS Torah.) So what Paul is saying is that we are not justified by works of the Law/Torah. Amen to that! However, as I said previously, Christ ushered in a NEW law, and the works he commands us to do are charitable, works of love, moved by grace, BUT WORKS NONE THE LESS. That is why in Matt 25: 31-46, it is those who do good works that go to heaven, and the ones that don't are damned. Look at the works carefully: They are not the dead works of the Torah, but works of charity which Christ commands us to do: Works of love.

So we are saved by grace alone, and a working faith. But NOT by faith alone.

One other point to remember: Salvation is not a one time event, therefore you cannot lose something you never fully had.

The Bible says I am saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8), but it also says I’m being saved (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12), and it says I have the hope that I will be saved (Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15). Again, to harmonize these, we see that salvation is an ongoing process, not a one time event.

When someone asks if I have been "saved," I say, "I am redeemed by the blood of Christ, I trust in him alone for my salvation, and, as the Bible teaches, I am ‘working out my salvation in fear and trembling’ (Phil. 2:12), knowing that it is God’s gift of grace that is working in me."

 

[BobRyan]

Agreed.

 

[Alabaster]

Leave the Christian Digest on the table in the RC forum. That's where it belongs. Not out here.

Reminder:
There will be no debate of Catholic issues outside the RC forum. Yes, it's locked so bite your tongues until sunday night.
Please.

Thanks! I appreciate that!

 

[Drew]

The Bible says I am saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8), but it also says I’m being saved (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12), and it says I have the hope that I will be saved (Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15). Again, to harmonize these, we see that salvation is an ongoing process, not a one time event.

Absolutely correct.

The problem is that people approach with a question whose very formulation shows that they are bringing a belief to the text, when they should be letting the text speak for itself.

That question is "when does a person get saved". The very way this question is worded shows that the person has already decided that salvation is a one time event. The result of this supposition is that they have to bend texts, like Romans 2, wildly out of shape to make them fit with the answer "by faith" that they find for their ill-posed question.

Whenever one finds oneself saying things like "Paul says eternal life is granted based on what you do, but he really means it is based on faith", one has to be aware of the possibility that a subtlety in Paul's argument is being missed.

I suggest that, following your view (above), Paul sees justification in three tenses - past, present, future.

If we let Paul lead us, and not impose a "its gotta be a one time event", then we no longer have to mangle texts like Romans 2.

Paul basically teaches, I assert, that the people of God are marked out as such - that is to say "justified" - in the present based on faith and faith alone.

In the future - at the Romans 2 judgement - the people of God will be marked out (justified) by the good deeds that the Spirit has performed in their lives.