Salvation through baptism in the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth for the remission of sins.

[Paul E. Michael]

Because both phrases are speaking of the same Person.

And that's what makes each of them a name?

 

[justbyfaith]

You made a grammatical error: "are the name [sic] of"; "are the nameS of" is what you should have said. And, again, which one of those two phrases--"Jesus Christ" or "Jesus of Nazareth"--is what you are referring to by your phrase:

??



But, according to you, each of those two phrases is a name of the Father. So, which of those two phrases is the one to which you refer by your phrase "a singular name"?

"Jesus Christ of Nazareth" is the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost...

"Jesus of Nazareth" for short;

and/or

"Jesus Christ" for short.

All of these are the name of the same Person.

A name represents a Person.

And I did not make a grammatical error.

I am talking about one Person and therefore one essential name.

Just like the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are one Person and therefore have one essential name (Matthew 28:19).

For they are the same Spirit (John 4:24, Ephesians 4:4).

 

[justbyfaith]

And that's what makes each of them a name?

That's what makes each of them the name of one and the same Person...

"Jesus Christ of Nazareth"...

"Jesus of Nazareth" for short;

and/or

"Jesus Christ" for short.

 

[GodsGrace]

TOS RULES ARE BEING BROKEN BY MORE THAN ONE MEMBER.

PLEASE ADDRESS THE TOPIC AND DO NOT MAKE PERSONAL REMARKS.

PLEASE ACT WITH RESPECT FOR THE OTHER MEMBER.

DO NOT REPLY TO THIS POST ON THIS THREAD.
IF NECESSARY USE TALK WITH STAFF.
THANKS.

 

[Paul E. Michael]

Because both phrases are speaking of the same Person.

And that's what makes each of them a name?

That's what makes each of them the name

Here you have just admitted that what makes a word or phrase to be a name of a person is that the word or phrase is "speaking of" a person. Which is an admission that the phrase "the Father" is the name of the Father, because the phrase "the Father" is speaking of the Father.

So, to say that the phrase "the Father" is not the name of the Father is to deny that the phrase "the Father" is speaking of the Father.

 

[Paul E. Michael]

I am talking about one Person and therefore one essential name.

You're talking about three different phrases:

• "Jesus Christ"
• "Jesus of Nazareth"
• "Jesus Christ of Nazareth"

So, you are talking about three different names. To which one of those three different names are you referring by your phrase, "one essential name"?

All of these are the name of the same Person.

All three of those three different names are different names of Jesus.

 

[Hopeful]

My trust is certainly not in me or my own ability to endure...

Do you believe that you will endure, faithfully, under persecution?
Your endurance will be up to you.

It is in God and His ability to keep me through the bad times.
We can never be too confident in God. He is Omnipotent and loving.

And, He has given us all we need to endure faithfully.
We will have to use what He supplied.

 

[donadams]

Acts 2:38 the command to be baptized (in the Matt 28:19 method) is in the name of Jesus not the baptism itself. See below

Baptism:

Matt 28:19

The holy church obeys the command Of Jesus!

Ephesians 5:24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ…

Jn 15:5 apart from me you can do nothing so remain in Christ!

Keep his commandment!

Matt 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

1 Jn 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

1 Jn 2:5 But who so keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

His word: Matt 28:19

1 Jn 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

1 Jn 2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

Matthew 24:35
Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

 

[justbyfaith]

Here you have just admitted that what makes a word or phrase to be a name of a person is that the word or phrase is "speaking of" a person. Which is an admission that the phrase "the Father" is the name of the Father, because the phrase "the Father" is speaking of the Father.

So, to say that the phrase "the Father" is not the name of the Father is to deny that the phrase "the Father" is speaking of the Father.

The term "Father" is still only a title and not a name. "Jesus Christ" is the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost. "Father" is a title. "Son" is a title. And "Holy Ghost" is a title.

Not one of these three is a name.

"Jesus Christ" is a name.

You're talking about three different phrases:

• "Jesus Christ"
• "Jesus of Nazareth"
• "Jesus Christ of Nazareth"

So, you are talking about three different names. To which one of those three different names are you referring by your phrase, "one essential name"?

I am talking about one name..."Jesus Christ of Nazareth"...

"Jesus Christ" for short;

and

"Jesus of Nazareth" for short.

2:yes

All three of those three different names are different names of Jesus.

They are the name of the same Person...and are in fact one name...

"Jesus Christ of Nazareth"...

"Jesus Christ" for short;

and "Jesus of Nazareth" for short.

2:yes

 

[justbyfaith]

Do you believe that you will endure, faithfully, under persecution?
Your endurance will be up to you.

It is God who works within me both to will and to do according to His good pleasure (Philippians 2:13).

So, He gets all the glory for my enduring to the end.

Nevertheless, I understand that it is an exhortation from holy scripture that we endure to the end; something that we can either obey or disobey.

I would say, though, that if a person is sealed by the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 1:13-14), they will endure to the end. Not because of any other free will choice other than the choice that brought them to be sealed by the Holy Spirit.

But the Spirit will be a motivation within them to endure where others might not endure who have not been sealed.

 

[JLB]

More specifically, water baptism is for those who have repented.

I am uncertain that salvation comes except after a person receives the ordinance of baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins.

Thanks for your honest answer.




JLB

 

[Paul E. Michael]

The term "Father" is still only a title and not a name.

I was not talking about the term "Father". I was talking about the term "the Father".
The term "the Father" is a name, so long as someone or something is being named by it. Same with the term "Father".
Whatever is not a name is not a title. So, by telling us that a term is not a name, you are telling us that it is not a title.

I am talking about one name..."Jesus Christ of Nazareth"...

"Jesus Christ" for short;

and

"Jesus of Nazareth" for short.

If you're talking about the names "Jesus Christ of Nazareth", "Jesus Christ", and "Jesus of Nazareth", you're talking about three names, and not merely about one name.

They are the name of the same Person...and are in fact one name...

You repeated your grammatical error, there.

They--the three names 1) "Jesus Christ of Nazareth", 2) "Jesus Christ", and 3) "Jesus of Nazareth"--are in fact three names.

 

[justbyfaith]

I was not talking about the term "Father". I was talking about the term "the Father".
The term "the Father" is a name, so long as someone or something is being named by it. Same with the term "Father".
Whatever is not a name is not a title. So, by telling us that a term is not a name, you are telling us that it is not a title.

Even the term "the Father" is a title. And I am not saying that this is because it is not a name. It is not a name because it is a title; not the other way around.

It is also not a name. If that were the case, then "Son" is also a name. And "Holy Ghost" is also a name.

But since the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost have the same name (one singular name according to Matthew 28:19), then the name "the Father" = the name "the Son" = the name "the Holy Ghost".

And this substantiates my theology.

For it continues to speak of the very important truth that the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost have a singular name.

When you go to Acts 2:38, you can easily find out what that name is. And when you go to Acts 4:10-12, it clarifies that name even further.

If you're talking about the names "Jesus Christ of Nazareth", "Jesus Christ", and "Jesus of Nazareth", you're talking about three names, and not merely about one name.

I am talking about one name: "Jesus Christ of Nazareth"...

"Jesus Christ" for short;

and "Jesus of Nazareth" for short.

You repeated your grammatical error, there.

They--the three names 1) "Jesus Christ of Nazareth", 2) "Jesus Christ", and 3) "Jesus of Nazareth"--are in fact three names.

Again, it is not a grammatical error...any more than it is a grammatical error to say that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost have one name (Matthew 28:19).

1), 2), and 3), in your post, above, are in fact one name; for they belong to one Person.

You are evidently unaware of what is meant by the word "name". The name of a Person is the essence of who he is.

And again, it is one name: "Jesus Christ of Nazareth"...

"Jesus Christ" for short;

"Jesus of Nazareth" for short.



But I suppose that we can keep going back and forth like this for the next twenty years.

I'm game if that is what you want to do.

 

[Hopeful]

It is God who works within me both to will and to do according to His good pleasure (Philippians 2:13).
So, He gets all the glory for my enduring to the end.

Nevertheless, I understand that it is an exhortation from holy scripture that we endure to the end; something that we can either obey or disobey.

Then it is in our hands whether or not you will be saved.

I would say, though, that if a person is sealed by the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 1:13-14), they will endure to the end. Not because of any other free will choice other than the choice that brought them to be sealed by the Holy Spirit.

"Enduring" is a verb, and something we are not forced to do by God.

But the Spirit will be a motivation within them to endure where others might not endure who have not been sealed.

Agreed, and a Comforter for the percecuted and prosecuted.

 

[justbyfaith]

Then it is in our hands whether or not you will be saved.

It is not in your hands whether or not I will be saved.

 

[Paul E. Michael]

Even the term "the Father" is a title.

Indeed it is, so long as you are naming someone or something by the term "the Father". By telling us that the term "the Father" is a title, you are telling us that the term "the Father" is a name.

---

"Son" is also a name.

Indeed it is; so long as you are naming someone or something by "Son", it is a name.

"Holy Ghost" is also a name.

Indeed it is; so long as you are naming someone or something by "Holy Ghost", it is a name.

---

It is not a name because it is a title

Here is what you have just handed us: "It is not a name because it is [a name that describes someone's position or job]."

---

the name "the Father" = the name "the Son"

What do you mean by "="? Do you mean "is"? Surely you are at least literate enough to be able to discern the obvious truth that the name "the Father" is not the name "the Son", right? It's immaterial that you use both names to refer to one person: those two, different names are still two, different names. It's immaterial that you use the three names "Jesus Christ", "Jesus of Nazareth", and "Jesus Christ of Nazareth", to refer to one person: those three, different names are still three, different names.

---

I am talking about one name: "Jesus Christ of Nazareth"...

Yes, that's one of the three names you are talking about. Here is another one of the three names you are talking about:

"Jesus Christ"

And here is another one of the three names you are talking about:

"Jesus of Nazareth"

If you want to tell me that you are talking about only one name--viz., "Jesus Christ of Nazareth"--and that you are not talking about three names, then you will thereby be telling me that you are not talking about the other two names, "Jesus Christ" and "Jesus of Nazareth".

You say you are talking about one name, "Jesus Christ of Nazareth". Are you also talking about the two names, "Jesus Christ" and "Jesus of Nazareth"? Yes or No?

---

1), 2), and 3), in your post, above, are in fact one name

1) is one name, 2) is another one, and 3) is another one.

for they belong to one Person.

One person can have more names than just one. Take Jesus, for instance; here are four of His names: "Jesus", "Jesus Christ", "Jesus of Nazareth", "Jesus Christ of Nazareth".

---

You are evidently unaware of what is meant by the word "name". The name of a Person is the essence of who he is.

So, according to you: "The [word or set of words by which a person is known, addressed, or referred to] is the essence of who he is"?

---

"Jesus Christ" for short;

If you mean anything by that, please try to rewrite whatever you mean by it in the form of a declarative clause/sentence. Are you saying that the two-word name "Jesus Christ" is a shorter alternative to the four-word name "Jesus Christ of Nazareth"?

"Jesus of Nazareth" for short.

If you mean anything by that, please try to rewrite whatever you mean by it in the form of a declarative clause/sentence. Are you saying that the three-word name "Jesus of Nazareth" is a shorter alternative to the four-word name "Jesus Christ of Nazareth"?

---

the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost have a singular name.

By telling us that you are referring to the name "Jesus Christ of Nazareth" by your phrase "a singular name", you are telling us that 1) you are not referring by it to the name "Jesus Christ", and that 2) you are not referring by it to the name "Jesus of Nazareth".

 

[Paul E. Michael]

When you go to Acts 2:38, you can easily find out what that name is. And when you go to Acts 4:10-12, it clarifies that name even further.

In Acts 2:38, we read:

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

We do not read:

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the two-word phrase "Jesus Christ" for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Contrary to your fantasy, the passage is not making a statement about word usage.

In Acts 4:10-12, we read:

Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

We do not read:

Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the four-word phrase "Jesus Christ of Nazareth", whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other phrase under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Contrary to your fantasy, the passage is not making a statement about word usage.

 

[justbyfaith]

Indeed it is, so long as you are naming someone or something by the term "the Father". By telling us that the term "the Father" is a title, you are telling us that the term "the Father" is a name.

No; for a title is not necessarily a name.

Indeed it is; so long as you are naming someone or something by "Son", it is a name.

Indeed it is; so long as you are naming someone or something by "Holy Ghost", it is a name.

So, "the Father", "the Son", and "the Holy Ghost" are names; not a name.

Nevertheless, Matthew 28:19 teaches contrary to that; that Father, Son, and Holy Ghost have one name.

Here is what you have just handed us: "It is not a name because it is [a name that describes someone's position or job]."

When I speak of a name as not being a title, I am speaking of the name of a person, such as "Mary" or "John". John's title may be both "father" and "son" as he may be both the father of children and the son of his father; and Mary's title may be both "mother" and "daughter" as she is both the mother of children and the daughter of her parents; but Mary's name is not "mother" or "daughter" and neither is John's name "son" or "father". It remains that those things are their titles. And here I think that you are arguing about words.

1Ti 6:3, If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
1Ti 6:4, He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,
1Ti 6:5, Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.

2Ti 2:14, Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.

What do you mean by "="? Do you mean "is"? Surely you are at least literate enough to be able to discern the obvious truth that the name "the Father" is not the name "the Son", right?

Matthew 28:19 says that there is one name for the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost; not three.

Therefore, if "the Father", "the Son", and "the Holy Ghost" all be names, they are the same name.

But you have shown me to be even correct in that even you can see that if one is literate, they can see that "the Father", if it be a name, cannot be the same name as "the Son" and "the Holy Ghost" if they all be separate names.

Therefore you have proven for me that "the Father", "the Son" and "the Holy Ghost" are not names; since all three of them carry a singular name (because if "the Father" be a name, "the Son" be a name, and "the Holy Ghost" be a name, then they are three names. I conclude that they are not names at all; since if they be names, they are three names; yet scripture declares that they have one name. And if that be the case, then the name "the Father" = the name "the Son" = the name "the Holy Ghost").

What else can they be but titles?

I know that I am talking over your head. It can't be helped. I don't know how to simplify it.

It's immaterial that you use the three names "Jesus Christ", "Jesus of Nazareth", and "Jesus Christ of Nazareth", to refer to one person: those three, different names are still three, different names.

It is one name: "Jesus Christ of Nazareth"...

"Jesus Christ" for short;

"Jesus of Nazareth" for short.

Yes, that's one of the three names you are talking about. Here is another one of the three names you are talking about:

"Jesus Christ"

And here is another one of the three names you are talking about:

"Jesus of Nazareth"

If you want to tell me that you are talking about only one name--viz., "Jesus Christ of Nazareth"--and that you are not talking about three names, then you will thereby be telling me that you are not talking about the other two names, "Jesus Christ" and "Jesus of Nazareth".

The other two "names" are the short version of the elongated "Jesus Christ of Nazareth"

You say you are talking about one name, "Jesus Christ of Nazareth". Are you also talking about the two names, "Jesus Christ" and "Jesus of Nazareth"? Yes or No?

Yes; and I will say also that they are not "other" names.

1) is one name, 2) is another one, and 3) is another one.

They are all the same name: 2) and 3) are short for 1).

One person can have more names than just one. Take Jesus, for instance; here are four of His names: "Jesus", "Jesus Christ", "Jesus of Nazareth", "Jesus Christ of Nazareth".

Try one name: "Jesus Christ of Nazareth" with the other two "names" being short for the first.

So, according to you: "The [word or set of words by which a person is known, addressed, or referred to] is the essence of who he is"?

yes.

If you mean anything by that, please try to rewrite whatever you mean by it in the form of a declarative clause/sentence. Are you saying that the two-word name "Jesus Christ" is a shorter alternative to the four-word name "Jesus Christ of Nazareth"?

yes. Although I will say "versions" rather than "alternatives"

If you mean anything by that, please try to rewrite whatever you mean by it in the form of a declarative clause/sentence. Are you saying that the three-word name "Jesus of Nazareth" is a shorter alternative to the four-word name "Jesus Christ of Nazareth"?

yes. see above statement also.

By telling us that you are referring to the name "Jesus Christ of Nazareth" by your phrase "a singular name", you are telling us that 1) you are not referring by it to the name "Jesus Christ", and that 2) you are not referring by it to the name "Jesus of Nazareth".

No; for both of these "names" are shorter versions of the longer "Jesus Christ of Nazareth".

I still wonder if you are being deliberately obtuse in order to try and instigate me, or whether you are really this unintelligent. I'm starting to think that the root of it isn't malice.

In Acts 2:38, we read:

We do not read:

Contrary to your fantasy, the passage is not making a statement about word usage.

In Acts 4:10-12, we read:

We do not read:

Contrary to your fantasy, the passage is not making a statement about word usage.

I am uncertain as to what is your point. Could you please clarify what the point is that you are trying to make, if any?

 

[justbyfaith]

Matthew 28:19 says that there is one name for the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost; not three.

Therefore, if "the Father", "the Son", and "the Holy Ghost" all be names, they are the same name.

But you have shown me to be even correct in that even you can see that if one is literate, they can see that "the Father", if it be a name, cannot be the same name as "the Son" and "the Holy Ghost" if they all be separate names.

Therefore you have proven for me that "the Father", "the Son" and "the Holy Ghost" are not names; since all three of them carry a singular name (because if "the Father" be a name, "the Son" be a name, and "the Holy Ghost" be a name, then they are three names. I conclude that they are not names at all; since if they be names, they are three names; yet scripture declares that they have one name. And if that be the case, then the name "the Father" = the name "the Son" = the name "the Holy Ghost").

Matthew 28:19 says that there is one name for the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost; not three.

Therefore, if "the Father", "the Son", and "the Holy Ghost" all be names, they are the same name.

But you have shown me to be even correct in that even you can see that if one is literate, they can see that "the Father", if it be a name, cannot be the same name as "the Son" and "the Holy Ghost" if they all be separate names.

Therefore you have proven for me that "the Father", "the Son" and "the Holy Ghost" are not names; since all three of them carry a singular name (because if "the Father" be a name, "the Son" be a name, and "the Holy Ghost" be a name, then they are three names. I conclude that they are not names at all; since if they be names, they are three names; yet scripture declares that they have one name. And if that be the case, then the name "the Father" = the name "the Son" = the name "the Holy Ghost").

But since even you have seen that such a proposition would be based in illiteracy, you have proved my point.

 

[GodsGrace]

Indeed it is, so long as you are naming someone or something by the term "the Father". By telling us that the term "the Father" is a title, you are telling us that the term "the Father" is a name.

---

Indeed it is; so long as you are naming someone or something by "Son", it is a name.

Indeed it is; so long as you are naming someone or something by "Holy Ghost", it is a name.

---

Here is what you have just handed us: "It is not a name because it is [a name that describes someone's position or job]."

---

What do you mean by "="? Do you mean "is"? Surely you are at least literate enough to be able to discern the obvious truth that the name "the Father" is not the name "the Son", right? It's immaterial that you use both names to refer to one person: those two, different names are still two, different names. It's immaterial that you use the three names "Jesus Christ", "Jesus of Nazareth", and "Jesus Christ of Nazareth", to refer to one person: those three, different names are still three, different names.

---

Yes, that's one of the three names you are talking about. Here is another one of the three names you are talking about:

And here is another one of the three names you are talking about:

If you want to tell me that you are talking about only one name--viz., "Jesus Christ of Nazareth"--and that you are not talking about three names, then you will thereby be telling me that you are not talking about the other two names, "Jesus Christ" and "Jesus of Nazareth".

You say you are talking about one name, "Jesus Christ of Nazareth". Are you also talking about the two names, "Jesus Christ" and "Jesus of Nazareth"? Yes or No?

---

1) is one name, 2) is another one, and 3) is another one.

One person can have more names than just one. Take Jesus, for instance; here are four of His names: "Jesus", "Jesus Christ", "Jesus of Nazareth", "Jesus Christ of Nazareth".

---

So, according to you: "The [word or set of words by which a person is known, addressed, or referred to] is the essence of who he is"?

---

If you mean anything by that, please try to rewrite whatever you mean by it in the form of a declarative clause/sentence. Are you saying that the two-word name "Jesus Christ" is a shorter alternative to the four-word name "Jesus Christ of Nazareth"?

If you mean anything by that, please try to rewrite whatever you mean by it in the form of a declarative clause/sentence. Are you saying that the three-word name "Jesus of Nazareth" is a shorter alternative to the four-word name "Jesus Christ of Nazareth"?

---

By telling us that you are referring to the name "Jesus Christ of Nazareth" by your phrase "a singular name", you are telling us that 1) you are not referring by it to the name "Jesus Christ", and that 2) you are not referring by it to the name "Jesus of Nazareth".

Jesus Christ is not a name.
Christ is not a name.