Salvation vs. Rewards of our Race

[4afaithfulone]

What are we working for?
In Adam after the fall, all were born into sin, no matter how good you are, you are still under the influence of evil and corruptible.
But in the Last Adam Jesus Christ, we who have desired with our heart to be born again in our spirit, by the accepting The Word & Spirit of God to work within us, are now saved to live again. We have been made righteous(because of Jesus' sacrifice) being reunited God's Spirit to be in right standing with God. Not because we are now perfected, but because we are looking up to Him again as our God instead of own self as god like the ungodly world. Noah was not perfect, but called righteous because he looked up to God. Jesus had to die for Noah, David, Abraham etc... as well as us for none are perfect, no not ONE!

We in our own self outside of God’s Spirit and Word could never save ourselves because Christ is the measure and we were found short of the glory of God. So no amount of giving, and doing could satisfy God to earn our salvation, these are just works of the flesh for man to see, but inwardly we are still corruptible.
But Christ paid that debt for us. Not so that we can continue a life of sin with no consequences, but to set us free from living a lawless way of life that causes us to be immoral, corrupt in all our ways living a cursed way of a life of hell.
He made a way to restore man back to the image of God that Adam was before the fall so God could bless us with abundant life or peace, provision, prosperity, health, love.
Salvation to live again, does not dictate the condition or quality of life you will live from that point in this age and the new life to come. It just gives you right standing with God so that you can begin to run your race by training yourself up in His Word to hopefully build up your treasures in your heaven, for now and then. In Christ He has given us all the equipment for our training in the helper, the Spirit of God to guide us and cleanse us with the living water of the Word day by day as we grow in grace and stature.
God has not given us a set of rules and regulations in Christ just to be lawless, but because He is wanting to see what we consider worthy worship and faithfulness to Him in each of us. He is choosing out a people for His names sake. What do we do in our daily lives that makes God know that we love HIM to make us stand out, in His eyes, Not mans?
The body of Christ is like Esther and is Esther, whom are being selected from all peoples, tongues, nations, tribes, and is being groomed tried and tested like precious metals for worthiness to be selected as the jewels for the bride and wife of the Lamb, heavenly Jerusalem.
No, we can never earn salvation or loose it, but holiness and rewards are earned. And every kingdom needs servants to serve them, so our heavenly rewards will dictate our inheritance.
All fleshly things we have accumulated will be burned up and only what spiritual richness you have will count. The Word is the foundation that we have heard from the beginning we must build upon, nothing or no one else will do!
1 Cor 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
KJV
What we have sown towards God and man in line with His Word is what we shall reap as our Just rewards. The true body of Christ will be the worthy 144, 000 VIRGINS who are called male virgins, for there is no gender in the spirit and the head of the body is Christ who is male. He comes for his holy virgin body members, holy as he is holy. There are no other virgins mentioned in the church and the body is made up of male and female, Jew and Gentile but into the one new man.
These are they that have been tried as gold and silver and selected as the jewels of the bride. The saints in white are the righteousness of heavenly Jerusalem as the brides wedding gown and no one without a white garment shall be invited to the wedding.
Mal 3:16 Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another: and the LORD hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name.

17 And they shall be mine, saith the LORD of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.
18 Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not.
KJV
Isa 62:4 Thou shalt no more be termed Forsaken; neither shall thy land any more be termed Desolate: but thou shalt be called Hephzi-bah, and thy land Beulah: for the LORD delighteth in thee, and thy land shall be married.
5 For as a young man marrieth a virgin, so shall thy sons marry thee: and as the bridegroom rejoiceth over the bride, so shall thy God rejoice over thee.
KJV
Rev 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
KJV
Rev 14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.
KJV
Defiled with women, does not mean they have not had sexual relations with women. It means they did not defile themselves for the love of a man or woman to be unfaithful to God.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Very nice article.
But I don't understand the point you are trying to make as per the title of your thread.

 

[4afaithfulone]

Good morning Rollo Tamasi,
My point of my post is the show that salvation can not be earned... but our rewards must be. People argue constantly over rather we have to work to keep our salvation. But if we had to work to keep it, then it is by works that we are saved. Yet, everyone understands that we have to do good works, but for what reason? The reason is to earn our rewards in our heaven. Our heaven begins to be formed the moment we enter into the kingdom of God through the Door who is Christ, and our rewards come as we learn how to walk in The Word in integrity and godly character.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

People argue constantly over rather we have to work to keep our salvation.

No, actually the argument is whether or not we have to believe to keep our salvation. Which, of course, we do.

I'm not sure I've ever talked to anybody, except for one or two Messianics who has said salvation has to be earned by doing good works. That's simply not an issue for the church at this time in church history.

But if we had to work to keep it, then it is by works that we are saved. Yet, everyone understands that we have to do good works, but for what reason? The reason is to earn our rewards in our heaven. Our heaven begins to be formed the moment we enter into the kingdom of God through the Door who is Christ, and our rewards come as we learn how to walk in The Word in integrity and godly character.

While there will obviously be rewards attached to living faithfully in this life, works are necessary in salvation because the faith that justifies all by itself apart from works is the faith that changes a person into someone who does righteous things. It's deceitful for a person to think that the faith that justifies all by itself apart from works can remain alone. That's like trying to say you can go swimming and not get wet.

(A&T Guidelines state in part: "Subsequent opposing responses should include references to supportive scripture relevant to the thread and offer explanation for the contrary understanding." Everyone needs to review and follow these guidelines in order to post in the A&T Forum. Obadiah.)

 

[4afaithfulone]

So Jethro, you believe that you have to earn your salvation shown by the works you do?
Isn't it more true that a man who is truly saved, will desire to do good, not Made to do them?

Do you believe that the Christ died so that all could live again and be saved outside of their fleshly works, but by his blood alone?
Do you understand what this passage is calling works of faith that please God are?
James 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
KJV
Do you see any works of the flesh mentioned here in these acts of faith above that God condoned and recognized as the kind of faith He is looking for? Works of the flesh are like Martha did when Jesus rebuked her when she put more worth in serving carnal needs than the spiritual ones that Mary chose, such as handing out sandwiches or blankets for carnal things that man calls good works?
Jesus said you will always have the poor with you, come follow me!
In case we have not noticed, but that is what sets True Christianity apart from other religions that just say do good. Because every dead in their sins man needs a major overhaul, and has much work to be done within our selves to make any difference in this world that is corrupted it's ways.
God is not making a new covenant like the old one to just say Do this and Don't do that, He is actually teaching us by His Spirit to be able/Abel to so them. God does not start our transformation from the outside in as man does. He needs to be able to get inside and work from the inside OUT!
We are to take the gospel of the kingdom and of Truth to the Poor who suffer due to sinful lifestyles to save their souls. And fill our own vessels with the water of the Word allowing God to cleanse our hearts of evil deeds towards God and man.
We are not required to go out to find others to do everyone else's work or be a crutch to the ungodly to hold them up while they sit in their sinful ways choosing to be like this, totally rejecting the Bread of life, the free gift of God to give them a new way of life.
Our work is to tell them of Christ and God's free gift to help them to rise up in the faith to learn to trust and lean on God for their protection and provisions and godly wisdom for life. Jesus IS the resurrection and the way, the truth and the life. For when we follow The Word he raises us up from death unto life leading us to the Father.
The works we are to do is to retrain our minds to seek God's kingdom, ways, His agape love and righteousness to walk upright....

 

[4afaithfulone]

I also want to add, that Jesus died for every human being who would ever live. While it is only by faith in him as the Son of God that you can enter into eternal life and begin to earn the blessings of God. Everyone will appear at the Great White Throne Judgment to be handed out their place of destination that they chose for themselves. So to be saved, really just means a chance to live again when we really were headed for destruction. It is according to our works of faith that dictate WHERE and how good you will live! Rather in new Jerusalem and Blessed, or the saved nations outside of Jerusalem the Bride or in the lake of fire(hot water with God)! But you will be saved to live again no matter your choice. The living are those who know Christ as their Lord, the dead are those who do not.
John 11:23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
KJV
2 Cor 5:14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
KJV
Rev 20:11-15
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
KJV
That is where their life, they chose, will be lived and will be now in this earth in the hell they made it, just as our rewards dictate the life that we earned while in the body, meaning in body of Christ

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

I also want to add, that Jesus died for every human being who would ever live. While it is only by faith in him as the Son of God that you can enter into eternal life and begin to earn the blessings of God. Everyone will appear at the Great White Throne Judgment to be handed out their place of destination that they chose for themselves. So to be saved, really just means a chance to live again when we really were headed for destruction. It is according to our works of faith that dictate WHERE and how good you will live! Rather in new Jerusalem and Blessed, or the saved nations outside of Jerusalem the Bride or in the lake of fire(hot water with God)! But you will be saved to live again no matter your choice. The living are those who know Christ as their Lord, the dead are those who do not.
John 11:23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
KJV
2 Cor 5:14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
KJV
Rev 20:11-15
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
KJV
That is where their life, they chose, will be lived and will be now in this earth in the hell they made it, just as our rewards dictate the life that we earned while in the body, meaning in body of Christ

Please explain what these rewards are that I should be working for them.
How does my need to earn rewards play into my relationship with Christ?
Precisely, with Scripture please.
I ask this because I don't seem to agree with you.
Are these rewards making us greater than others in heaven?
Are you saying that there are levels in heaven?
Could it be that we are misunderstanding what these rewards are and the purpose for earning them?

Did your ego play a role in getting saved?
I would think not.
But what you're saying sounds as if your ego will be a driving factor to gain more rewards.

 

[4afaithfulone]

No, it is you who claim that our works are apart of our salvation. I told you that salvation is a free gift but our rewards in heaven must be earned.

Please do not give me the credit for claiming there are rewards in heaven for showing faith in God… No, this is God’s Word that says it.
Rewards for our works are all throughout the Bible rather good works or bad, perhaps you have overlooked it?? Do you read the Bible? We must learn to overcome the lusts of our flesh man and our Father rewards us for our progress, didn’t you know that? Here is the scriptures you asked for and I hope you read.
Rev 2:7
7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
KJV
Rev 2:11
11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
KJV
Rev 2:17
17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.
KJV
Rev 2:26
26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
KJV
Rev 3:5
5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
KJV
Rev 3:12-13
12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
KJV
Rev 3:21-22
21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
KJV
Rev 21:7-8
7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
KJV
Heb 11:6
6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
KJV
John 6:27
27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
KJV
Matt 6:16-21
16 Moreover when ye fast, be not, as the hypocrites, of a sad countenance: for they disfigure their faces, that they may appear unto men to fast. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
17 But thou, when thou fastest, anoint thine head, and wash thy face;
18 That thou appear not unto men to fast, but unto thy Father which is in secret: and thy Father, which seeth in secret, shall reward thee openly.
19 Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:
20 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:
21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
KJV
Matt 10:41-42
41 He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet's reward; and he that receiveth a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man's reward.
42 And whosoever shall give to drink unto one of these little ones a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, verily I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose his reward.
KJV
1 Cor 3:8-15
8 Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.
9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.
10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
KJV
Heb 2:2-3
2 For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward;
3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;
KJV
Rev 22:12-15
12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
KJV
Rev 11:17-18
17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
KJV

 

[gr8grace3]

Please explain what these rewards are that I should be working for them.
How does my need to earn rewards play into my relationship with Christ?
Precisely, with Scripture please.
I ask this because I don't seem to agree with you.
Are these rewards making us greater than others in heaven?
Are you saying that there are levels in heaven?
Could it be that we are misunderstanding what these rewards are and the purpose for earning them?

Did your ego play a role in getting saved?
I would think not.
But what you're saying sounds as if your ego will be a driving factor to gain more rewards.

I agree that we are running the race to win and that we are rewarded for it. Not that I am at this stage in my walk but we strive for these rewards because we can cast them at the Lords feet and Glorify Him with these rewards.
2 Corinthians 5:10 (NASB95)
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.


While we do divine good here on earth we glorify Him. The rewards that we receive glorify Him in heaven and we are blessed and rewarded for that.
2 Timothy 2:12 (NASB95)
12 If we endure, we will also reign with Him;

If we deny Him, He also will deny us;
One title of Jesus Christ is, King of kings and Lord of lords. So He has kings and lords and one of those rewards is to reign with Him if we endure. Kings and lords denotes certain 'levels' in heaven.If we do not endure, He clearly says here that we will be denied that reign.

Crowns can rewarded:
2 Timothy 4:7–8 (NASB95)
7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the course, I have kept the faith;

8 in the future there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day; and not only to me, but also to all who have loved His …
Crown of righteousness~~the believer who advances to spiritual maturity.

James 1:12 (NASB95)
12 Blessed is a man who perseveres under trial; for once he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.
Crown of life~~the believer who endures life using the problem solving devices that God has given to all believers.iow, approaches life through the mind of Christ and knows the mind of Christ instead of using worldly/carnal ideas and solutions.

1 Peter 5:4 (NASB95)
4 And when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the unfading crown of glory.
Crown of glory~~Pastor teachers who have used their gift to teach true bible doctrine.

 

[4afaithfulone]

Very nice gr8grace3,
Most Christians just think of church as a social club for entertainment, but it is really our classroom to train us up in The Word aka The Lord Jesus Christ to begin to mature in the Word to receive our inheritance on this earth as children of God. The devils spawn has most of the things that belong to God's children if you look around. But that shouldn't be!
3 John 3
2 Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth.
KJV

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Thank you faithful and thank you grace.
A lot of good answers by both of you.

However, I would like more.
Consider I am a person who has no knowledge of the Bible and I am unchurched.
This is how I interpret what you both said in my own words.

There are a lot of different rewards I can earn here on Earth that I will be given in heaven.
If I fail in any category, I will not receive those rewards.
Once in heaven, we count my rewards to determine what level I am on.
Then, some people will be higher than me and have more in heaven than me and some will be lower than me.
Some will be my bosses, some my underlings.
Some will have a closer relationship with God, some less.

It all depends on how hard I work at my relationship with God that will determine how much he chooses to give me when I get there.

Please realize that there are many Christians who will see this as the answers they need to have.
Is what I'm saying exactly as you meant to convey it?

 

[gr8grace3]

Thank you faithful and thank you grace.
A lot of good answers by both of you.

However, I would like more.
Consider I am a person who has no knowledge of the Bible and I am unchurched.
This is how I interpret what you both said in my own words.

There are a lot of different rewards I can earn here on Earth that I will be given in heaven.
If I fail in any category, I will not receive those rewards.
Once in heaven, we count my rewards to determine what level I am on.
Then, some people will be higher than me and have more in heaven than me and some will be lower than me.
Some will be my bosses, some my underlings.
Some will have a closer relationship with God, some less.

It all depends on how hard I work at my relationship with God that will determine how much he chooses to give me when I get there.

Please realize that there are many Christians who will see this as the answers they need to have.
Is what I'm saying exactly as you meant to convey it?

Yes, but it is all without a sin nature. Content,content and content with where and what we are. We are called to be content in all things even here with a sin nature. content with our bosses and the authority that are placed before us. Heaven is perfect and no sin nature, I imagine that I will be perfectly happy washing my wifes socks in heaven

The relationship part I would disagree. All will have a perfect relationship with the Lord.

We have a tendency to view God as just rubbing His hands together ready to pounce and take rewards from us when actually He has blessed us and His first inclination is to bless and give to us.
Acts 20:35 (NASB95)
35 “In everything I showed you that by working hard in this manner you must help the weak and remember the words of the Lord Jesus, that He Himself said, ‘It is more blessed to give than to receive.’ ”

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Yes, but it is all without a sin nature. Content,content and content with where and what we are. We are called to be content in all things even here with a sin nature. content with our bosses and the authority that are placed before us. Heaven is perfect and no sin nature, I imagine that I will be perfectly happy washing my wifes socks in heaven

The relationship part I would disagree. All will have a perfect relationship with the Lord.

We have a tendency to view God as just rubbing His hands together ready to pounce and take rewards from us when actually He has blessed us and His first inclination is to bless and give to us.
Acts 20:35 (NASB95)
35 “In everything I showed you that by working hard in this manner you must help the weak and remember the words of the Lord Jesus, that He Himself said, ‘It is more blessed to give than to receive.’ ”

Thank you.
That's a good answer and it makes sense.
However, I don't know where I would look in the Bible to find where it reads that away.

 

[gr8grace3]

Thank you.
That's a good answer and it makes sense.
However, I don't know where I would look in the Bible to find where it reads that away.

2 Cor 5:17~~New American Standard Bible
Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.

Philippians 4:11~~New American Standard Bible
Not that I speak from want, for I have learned to be content in whatever circumstances I am.

Eph 1:3~~New American Standard Bible
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,

Eph 1:6~~New American Standard Bible
to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.

1 Cor 2:9~~English Standard Version
But, as it is written, “What no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man imagined, what God has prepared for those who love him”—

Couldn't find the verse about washing my wifes socks.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

So Jethro, you believe that you have to earn your salvation shown by the works you do?

No. Reread my post. No where did I say we earn our salvation by what we do.

"5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit..." (Titus 3:5 NASB)

Isn't it more true that a man who is truly saved, will desire to do good, not Made to do them?

Of course. And that's what so many Christians say, but then turn right around and argue that you can have faith and not do good works. Which is completely contrary to what Paul said. He said the faith that justifies (all by itself) is the faith that works love:

"6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything (toward justification--see context), but faith working through love." (Galatians 5:6 NASB)

But so many in the church are sure the faith that does NOT work love can justify too, and they take false comfort that their dead faith can justify them.

Do you understand what this passage is calling works of faith that please God are?
James 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
KJV

The passage itself explains what the works of faith look like:

Keeping a tight rein on the tongue: James 1:26 NASB
Visiting orphans and widows in their distress: James 1:27 NASB
Meeting the physical needs of a brother or sister: James 2:15-16 NASB
Not showing partiality to the rich: James 2:3-4 NASB
​

The faith that does not have these kinds of works attached to it is a dead faith. A faith that can not justify.

Do you see any works of the flesh mentioned here in these acts of faith above that God condoned and recognized as the kind of faith He is looking for?

These are the works of the flesh:

"19 Now the deeds of the flesh areevident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality,
20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities,strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions,
21 envying,drunkenness, carousing, and things like these..." (Galatians 5:19-21 NASB)

Why would there be any possibility whatsoever that works of the flesh could make it into James' examples of works that show the faith that justifies? Except that perhaps you misunderstand what 'works of the flesh' really are.

Works of the flesh are like Martha did when Jesus rebuked her when she put more worth in serving carnal needs than the spiritual ones that Mary chose, such as handing out sandwiches or blankets for carnal things that man calls good works?

You are confusing good works done in order to save oneself--the 'good' works of the world--and good works, period.

 

[chessman]

I'm not sure I've ever talked to anybody, except for one or two Messianics who has said salvation has to be earned by doing good works. That's simply not an issue for the church at this time in church history.

There are over 78 million people in the US that think; 1) water baptism and 2) keeping the ten commandments has to be done to earn salvation. Over 25% of the US population believe it.

"the Second Vatican Council confirms: “The bishops, successors of the apostles, receive from the Lord... the mission of teaching all peoples, and of preaching the Gospel to every creature, so that all men may attain salvation through faith, Baptism and the observance of the Commandments.”29(1993, 888)"​

My sources:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholicism_in_the_United_States

http://www.usccb.org/beliefs-and-te...techism-of-the-catholic-church/epub/index.cfm

 

[JohnD]

The topic is a very good one.

I note in the discussion some key sub-points to address, like OSAS (once saved always saved), which I believe Jethro touched on lightly saying essentially our beliefs "keep us saved."
There are texts in the Bible that would seem to support this. That we could walk away from faith in Christ and be doomed. However, texts like 1 John 2:19 and John 10:28-29 indicate this is just not possible and that those who can and do walk away were never saved in the first place (which they prove by their ability to walk away).

1 John 2:19 (NASB95)
19They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.

John 10:28–29 (NASB95)
28and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
29“My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.

The real matter regarding OSAS is are you actually saved in the first place?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

There are over 78 million people in the US that think; 1) water baptism and 2) keeping the ten commandments has to be done to earn salvation. Over 25% of the US population believe it.

"the Second Vatican Council confirms: “The bishops, successors of the apostles, receive from the Lord... the mission of teaching all peoples, and of preaching the Gospel to every creature, so that all men may attain salvation through faith, Baptism and the observance of the Commandments.”29(1993, 888)"​

My sources:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholicism_in_the_United_States

http://www.usccb.org/beliefs-and-te...techism-of-the-catholic-church/epub/index.cfm

I realized after I had posted that I did not make it clear that I was talking about people in the Protestant Evangelical church. Works salvation just isn't the issue with us. Grace as a license to stay just the way you are is. It's the prevalent thinking among us that the faith that does not work love, and even doesn't have to work love, is the faith that justifies, in complete contradiction to what Paul said:

"6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love." (Galatians 5:6 NASB)

The faith that justifies is the faith that is seen in the obedience of faith. But so many are sure the faith that justifies does not have to be obedient faith. They erroneously conclude that to say that is to make the gospel a gospel of works. No. The faith that justifies is the faith that leads a person into an ever-increasing obedience of righteous works (do not show favoritism, do not lie, do not steal, care for the needy, etc...).

We work works through our faith because that's what faith looks like. But there are many who are taking comfort in a 'faith' that does not look like that, thinking that faith will save them on the Day of Wrath because, as they say, 'salvation is so utterly not of works'. They will be sorely surprised on that Day.

 

[JohnD]

Another point about rewards.

Those who die as unbelievers will have rewards for what they did or did not do in this life... in hell (lesser punishment). Romans is a good book to study to gain this, especially with phrases like "law unto themselves" etc. This has no bearing on eternal salvation which is through faith in Christ alone (John 3:16-18), but in degrees of lesser punishment in the eternal lake of fire.

Conversely, believers will have rewards in heaven according to what we did or did not do.

1 Corinthians 3:12–15 (NASB95)
12Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw,
13each man’s work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man’s work.
14If any man’s work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward.
15If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The topic is a very good one.

I note in the discussion some key sub-points to address, like OSAS (once saved always saved), which I believe Jethro touched on lightly saying essentially our beliefs "keep us saved."

That's exactly what I'm saying. But somewhere along the line even faith itself came to be understood as a work of the law that Paul says can not justify. So the conclusion was drawn that a person does not even have to continue to believe to be saved, because that would make the gospel a works gospel. How terribly misguided. But it seems to be the predominant theology gripping the Protestant Evangelical church at this time.

There are texts in the Bible that would seem to support this. That we could walk away from faith in Christ and be doomed.

There's no question about it. They are there in plain language.

However, texts like 1 John 2:19 and John 10:28-29 indicate this is just not possible and that those who can and do walk away were never saved in the first place (which they prove by their ability to walk away).

1 John 2:19 (NASB95)
19They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.

John 10:28–29 (NASB95)
28and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
29“My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.

And here's where people get into trouble. They do not assimilate these passage in light of the plain passages that talk about the believer's ability to himself walk away from trust in Christ. IOW, you have to interpret these passages in light of the rest of the counsel of scripture that tells us that you can indeed walk away from your trust in Christ, and the danger of doing so. It's the problem of not rightly dividing the Word of God. When you lift passages out of the Bible for interpretation you have to do that in a correct manner, keeping the rest of the counsel of the Word in mind.

The real matter regarding OSAS is are you actually saved in the first place?

At the very least this should be the OSAS argument, and I can respect that argument. But I see an abundance of OSAS strains that insist you don't even have to keep believing in order to be saved, because they say even faith itself is among the works that Paul says can not justify a person. That argument I have zero respect for.