Salvation/Works Question...

[Drew]

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. You already know Paul will not contradict Jesus

I am not sure what your poinit is. Do you, or do you not believe that Romans 2:6-7 teaches that, at a coming judgement eternal life will be given to, yes, those who persist in doing good?

This is the rather clear teaching of Romans 2:6-7, a text which many Christians quietly ignore. Now just because it is true doesn't mean this text tells us everything. As I have already agreed, it only those who have faith who will be enabled to do the works that will save them.

 

[francisdesales]

Your 'good works' dont count, you dont go to church on Saturday.

???

I'm not Jewish. The Bible doesn't say I need to worship God on Saturday, it says on "the Sabbath". Just because the ancient Jews reckoned Saturday as the Sabbath doesn't mean that I am bound to that reckoning. My Sabbath is on Sunday. Theirs is on Saturday

Regards

 

[Hitch]

[/COLOR]
I am not sure what your poinit is. Do you, or do you not believe that Romans 2:6-7 teaches that, at a coming judgement eternal life will be given to, yes, those who persist in doing good?

This is the rather clear teaching of Romans 2:6-7, a text which many Christians quietly ignore. Now just because it is true doesn't mean this text tells us everything. As I have already agreed, it only those who have faith who will be enabled to do the works that will save them.

What might be the primary differnece is that those who are saved do good works, in contrast to being saved by good works.

If not you need to explain what 'good work' you can do that cleanses of sin ? Slaughtering goats in the temple wont do it, penances wont do it, pilgrimage to Jerusalem wont do it.

 

[Hitch]

???

I'm not Jewish. The Bible doesn't say I need to worship God on Saturday, it says on "the Sabbath". Just because the ancient Jews reckoned Saturday as the Sabbath doesn't mean that I am bound to that reckoning. My Sabbath is on Sunday. Theirs is on Saturday

Regards

Ask Elijah674 about that.

 

[jasoncran]

???

I'm not Jewish. The Bible doesn't say I need to worship God on Saturday, it says on "the Sabbath". Just because the ancient Jews reckoned Saturday as the Sabbath doesn't mean that I am bound to that reckoning. My Sabbath is on Sunday. Theirs is on Saturday

Regards

paul would support that idea.

 

[francisdesales]

Ask Elijah674 about that.

Jewish customs are for Jews. I don't have to become Jewish to enter the People of God (Acts 15...) I obey the Decalogue, which states that I honor the Sabbath. Note, the day of the week is not mentioned. For Gentile believers, that is Sunday.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

What might be the primary differnece is that those who are saved do good works, in contrast to being saved by good works.

Ever read James 2? You are not saved by faith without works. Without works in Christ, you are unsaved. We are not saved by "good works" in that God is not obligated to pay us (Romans 4:4). But if we don't obey God (good works), we don't have Christ - that is not a salvific situation.

Regards

 

[Proverbs3/5]

???

I'm not Jewish. The Bible doesn't say I need to worship God on Saturday, it says on "the Sabbath". Just because the ancient Jews reckoned Saturday as the Sabbath doesn't mean that I am bound to that reckoning. My Sabbath is on Sunday. Theirs is on Saturday

Regards

I am not saying you are wrong, but does not "Sabbath" mean "seventh" in Hebrew? Is not Saturday the seventh day of the week? Don't get me wrong, I gather with other believers on Sunday for corporate worship, but I desire EVERY day to worship God, not just on Saturday, or Sunday.
Col 2:16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths,
Col 2:17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ. NKJV

 

[Hitch]

Ever read James 2? You are not saved by faith without works. Without works in Christ, you are unsaved. We are not saved by "good works" in that God is not obligated to pay us (Romans 4:4). But if we don't obey God (good works), we don't have Christ - that is not a salvific situation.

Regards

If thats different from what I said its not by much.

 

[francisdesales]

I am not saying you are wrong, but does not "Sabbath" mean "seventh" in Hebrew? Is not Saturday the seventh day of the week?

Depends when you start your counting. However, Christians now celebrate the "8th" day of the week, Sunday, because the Resurrection refers to the beginning of the New Creation.

Don't get me wrong, I gather with other believers on Sunday for corporate worship, but I desire EVERY day to worship God, not just on Saturday, or Sunday.
Col 2:16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths,
Col 2:17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ. NKJV

Agree...

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

If thats different from what I said its not by much.

OK, it appeared from the post I was responding to that you were erecting a "faith" vs. "good deeds" dichotomy. We clearly must have both to reach heaven (THAT definition of salvation...)

Regards

 

[Hitch]

OK, it appeared from the post I was responding to that you were erecting a "faith" vs. "good deeds" dichotomy. We clearly must have both to reach heaven (THAT definition of salvation...)

Regards

With out reading every post I'd say Drew ,you and me might be closer on this than it seems.

 

[Peregrine]

So the question is, is repentance something we can take credit for.

Can you take credit for worshiping God? After all, you are physically doing the act? But would you do it if God hadn't worked in your heart to change it, so that you want to worship Him? What if He hadn't given you that desire? Would you have repented if God hadn't FIRST done something in your heart?

"But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned" 1 Cor 2:14

Only once the Spirit has entered into your heart can you understand ANYTHING spiritual. Read the rest of 1 Cor 2, it makes perfect sense. We cannot understand that which we do not know. Quick, create in your mind a new color. You can't. Imagine a house no one else has ever created? It is only created off of parts and pieces of other houses you have already seen. So it takes the Spirit FIRST changing our hearts for us to want to repent.

Remember, the idea of salvation by faith is not that we don't exist in it. It is WHY are we saved? We are saved BY faith, not by works. In other words, the reason WHY we are saved is not because of what we do. The reason WHY we are saved is not because we repented first. That is part of the process(differentiate the process from the reason). The reason WHY we are saved is because of faith, which is actually not saving in itself, but we are saved by faith because God chose it to be the vessel He saves through. He could have chosen something else, but determined that would be best in His wisdom, for His glory. I do not mean to say that repentance is not "work", but repentance is more accurately, in my opinion, a response to something else that has occurred. Salvation by works means you are saved because of what you have done. Salvation by works means you are saved because of what you believe. They BOTH would have involved(if they both existed, which they don't), a repenting of sins.

 

[Drew]

What might be the primary differnece is that those who are saved do good works, in contrast to being saved by good works.

I politely suggest that this position cannot be reconciled with what Paul actually writes here:

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

I trust we agree that if someone asserts: "You will get Y according to what you have done", this means what it says - that the basis, or grounds, for getting Y is indeed what you have done, and not something else. And in the above text, it is clear that Paul is saying eternal life is granted according to persistence in doing good.

In other words "being saved" is determined by how you live.

Now I know many Christians will say what you are saying - that people are saved on other grounds (i.e. "simple faith) will do good works.

But, and I cannot emphasize this enough - this is simply not how this statement from Romans 2 reads. We need to honour what Paul actually writes and adopt our model of salvation accordingly. Paul here is quite clear - at the final judgement, eternal life is granted, yes, according to what we have done.

If not you need to explain what 'good work' you can do that cleanses of sin ?

No I do not have to offer such an explanation. Again, I suggest you bring a pre-supposition to this question, and that is that being saved is all about "being cleansed of sin".

I do not deny that there is an element of this involved, but I will keep insisting that Paul means what he says here in Romans 2 as well as in 2 Corinthians 5 - there is a coming judgement at which salvation will be granted according to "what we have done".

The fact that Paul does not tell us what the "standard" is should not be relevant - we clearly should be doing all the good we can. If we start thinking about "how much good works is enough", we miss the point entirely. We are to be relentlessly pursuing good works - the more the better. And God has promised that all those who are in Christ will be saved.

Does this mean we can ignore all the stuff where final salvation is linked to good works? Of course not. It means, instead, that the Holy Spirit, given on the basis of faith alone, will most assuredly produce good works sufficient to save.

 

[farouk]

Paul says, 'not of works, lest any man should boast'. (Ephesians 2.9).

He also goes on to say 'we are his workmanship', etc, but the 'not of works' principle stands.

 

[Drew]

Paul says, 'not of works, lest any man should boast'. (Ephesians 2.9).

He also goes on to say 'we are his workmanship', etc, but the 'not of works' principle stands.

We have been through this before. Paul is not talking about "good works" here, he is talking about the works of the Law of Moses, which only Jews can do.

Ephesians 2:9 is probably one of the most misunderstood texts of the Bible - and the consequences can be devastating. Making the mistake of thinking this is a statement that "good works" are not essential to salvation can be a life and death error.

I believe I have already presented the argument for my take on Ephesians 2:8-9 to you in this or some other thread. If you want me to repeat the argument, I will. But if I do, please actually read and engage it.

I cannot emphasize this enough: Ephesians 2:8-9 does not deny the central role of good works in final salvation - it denies that salvation is limited to Jews.

 

[Hitch]

I politely suggest that this position cannot be reconciled with what Paul actually writes here:

16For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

I trust we agree that if someone asserts: "You will get Y according to what you have done", this means what it says - that the basis, or grounds, for getting Y is indeed what you have done, and not something else. And in the above text, it is clear that Paul is saying eternal life is granted according to persistence in doing good.

In other words "being saved" is determined by how you live.

Now I know many Christians will say what you are saying - that people are saved on other grounds (i.e. "simple faith) will do good works.

But, and I cannot emphasize this enough - this is simply not how this statement from Romans 2 reads. We need to honour what Paul actually writes and adopt our model of salvation accordingly. Paul here is quite clear - at the final judgement, eternal life is granted, yes, according to what we have done.


No I do not have to offer such an explanation. Again, I suggest you bring a pre-supposition to this question, and that is that being saved is all about "being cleansed of sin".

I do not deny that there is an element of this involved, but I will keep insisting that Paul means what he says here in Romans 2 as well as in 2 Corinthians 5 - there is a coming judgement at which salvation will be granted according to "what we have done".

The fact that Paul does not tell us what the "standard" is should not be relevant - we clearly should be doing all the good we can. If we start thinking about "how much good works is enough", we miss the point entirely. We are to be relentlessly pursuing good works - the more the better. And God has promised that all those who are in Christ will be saved.

Does this mean we can ignore all the stuff where final salvation is linked to good works? Of course not. It means, instead, that the Holy Spirit, given on the basis of faith alone, will most assuredly produce good works sufficient to save.

But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

8If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

 

[francisdesales]

With out reading every post I'd say Drew ,you and me might be closer on this than it seems.

I find that happens more often than we (Christians of different persuasions) realize...

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

We have been through this before. Paul is not talking about "good works" here, he is talking about the works of the Law of Moses, which only Jews can do.

Ephesians 2:9 is probably one of the most misunderstood texts of the Bible - and the consequences can be devastating. Making the mistake of thinking this is a statement that "good works" are not essential to salvation can be a life and death error.

I believe I have already presented the argument for my take on Ephesians 2:8-9 to you in this or some other thread. If you want me to repeat the argument, I will. But if I do, please actually read and engage it.

I cannot emphasize this enough: Ephesians 2:8-9 does not deny the central role of good works in final salvation - it denies that salvation is limited to Jews.

I find it strange that some stop reading at Ephesians 2:9, glancing at v. 10, and that's it. If they'd keep reading, (LIKE THE NEXT TWO VERSES!!!) they would find out what sort of "works" Paul is talking about... Context. So important.

Regards

 

[Drew]

16For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

This statement is entirely consistent with the position that I am advancing - that final salvation is based on "good works".

This is not difficult:

(1) The person who believes the gospel is given the Holy Spirit;

(2) The person who is given the Holy Spirit will necessarily persist in doing good, since the Spirit is in control of that person's life;

(3) Even though final salvation is based on "good works", everyone who believes will ultimately be saved.

Do you see what I am saying?

We must take this seriously:

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.