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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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SALVATION
- Thread starter Cornelius
- Start date
Re: Shad - Stop Twisting My Words ... !!!
How did I boast? I just said no one can boast of their works because all good works come from God. You are falsely testifying. Are you reading?
Let me say this again. You are not saved if you think works does not save you because obedient to Jesus is all work. If you are not obedient to Jesus, you are not saved.
glorydaz said:
How did I boast? I just said no one can boast of their works because all good works come from God. You are falsely testifying. Are you reading?
Let me say this again. You are not saved if you think works does not save you because obedient to Jesus is all work. If you are not obedient to Jesus, you are not saved.
:amen 
vja4Him
Member
Re: The Cross of Jesus ...
I definitely see a different gospel ... The gospel of save yourself, because God doesn't keep His promises. And you can't trust His word. So, just work, work, work, and you might get lucky and have a ticket to heaven. But don't get your hopes up, because you CAN'T know if you are saved anyways ....
glorydaz said:
I definitely see a different gospel ... The gospel of save yourself, because God doesn't keep His promises. And you can't trust His word. So, just work, work, work, and you might get lucky and have a ticket to heaven. But don't get your hopes up, because you CAN'T know if you are saved anyways ....
vja4Him
Member
Re: The Cross of Jesus ...
You are ignoring the Word of God:
Ephesians 2:8-9
8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast.
Time for you to stop boasting in YOUR works. Time to trust in the WORKS of Christ.
shad said:glorydaz said:
When you say you can be saved without good works, you are giving folse assurance.
Are you boasting about all that striving and hard work you do?
I am not boasting anything, I am only telling you what Jesus tells us. Jesus says "go therefore make disciples of all nations... teaching them to obey every thin I have commanded you".
You tell the world that good works cannot save you, when Jesus tells you to teach them to obey everything He commands us. You sure working hard against Jesus' commandment.
You are ignoring the Word of God:
Ephesians 2:8-9
8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast.
Time for you to stop boasting in YOUR works. Time to trust in the WORKS of Christ.
Re: The Cross of Jesus ...
Ya know, brother, can't you just hear someone saying, "I didn't know I'd have to work my entire life and still risk losing my place in heaven. I can tell some of these brothers can't even control their tongue, and talk about holier-than-thou...
Maybe God isn't a loving Father after all. Sounds more like an evil tyrant type to me, and where is this Christian love and foregiveness I keep hearing about? Guess it's all a big lie."
Quite the testimony, isn't it? All this talk about working to get saved...how about asking Jesus to come into your heart and let His love show through? We're definately seeing a lot of man's "work" on this thread, and it ain't a pretty sight. I'll tell you what I'm seeing...I'm seeing the carnal man in all his glory.
vja4Him said:
Ya know, brother, can't you just hear someone saying, "I didn't know I'd have to work my entire life and still risk losing my place in heaven. I can tell some of these brothers can't even control their tongue, and talk about holier-than-thou...
Maybe God isn't a loving Father after all. Sounds more like an evil tyrant type to me, and where is this Christian love and foregiveness I keep hearing about? Guess it's all a big lie." Quite the testimony, isn't it? All this talk about working to get saved...how about asking Jesus to come into your heart and let His love show through? We're definately seeing a lot of man's "work" on this thread, and it ain't a pretty sight. I'll tell you what I'm seeing...I'm seeing the carnal man in all his glory.
vja4Him
Member
What is the Work We Should Do ???
And just what is the work that we should do?
John 6:29
Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
No one can boast because all good things come from God. I cannot claim any good works are my works.
And I ask you to think of my reply to you too.
please?[/quote:1vbq7wiu]
And just what is the work that we should do?
John 6:29
Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
shad said:
No one can boast because all good things come from God. I cannot claim any good works are my works.
I just did.Think about that mate.
Please?
And I ask you to think of my reply to you too. please?[/quote:1vbq7wiu]
Drew
Member
Re: The Cross of Jesus ...
I believe that in Ephesians 2:9, Paul is denying the salvific power of doing the works of Torah, and is not talking about the more general category of “good worksâ€.
To be fair here, the reader needs to unshackle himself from the deeply ingrained, reformation inspired, pre-disposition to read "works" as "good works" in Ephesians 2:9. Once freed of that pre-disposition, the reader can then ask the question as which of the following views makes more sense given the arguments Paul mounts in verse 11 and following (and other stuff we know Paul believes):
1. The salvific power of doing good works is being denied in verse 9;
2. The salvific power of doing the works of the Law of Moses (the Torah) is being denied in verse 9.
Explanation 2 is the one that makes sense in light of what Paul goes on to say in verse 11 as well as what he says in Romans 3, where he makes it clear that, in respect to good works, the Jew and the Gentile are in the same boat.
Proceeding to an examination of Ephesians 2:11 and following, Paul uses the "therefore" to show us that he is now going to fill out the implications of what he has just said. This is important because what follows will help disambiguate what Paul means by "works" in verse 9.
Therefore remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called "uncircumcised" by those who call themselves "the circumcision" (that done in the body by the hands of men)— 12remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise without hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.
Paul is clearly now talking about the Jew-Gentile divide, and how the actions of Jesus have brought Jew and Gentile together. Remember the "therefore" from verse 11 - Paul is telling us the implications of his verse 9 statement that none are saved by "works". Now here it becomes clear that these are the works of Torah since, obviously, it is by doing the works of Torah, being "under Torah" as it were, that the Jew could say "I am part of God's covenant people" or I am a member of "Israel". What marks out the nation Israel from the Gentile? Possession and doing of Torah, of course. This is an exceedingly powerful argument - Paul here is obviously talking about the basis on which the Gentiles were excluded from membership in the covenant family - and that basis is obviously the possession of Torah and doing its works.
14For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations
How much more clear could Paul be - he is talking about Torah. What has divided the Jew from the Gentile and been the barrier? Good works? Obviously not, both Jew and Gentile are in Adam – they are on “the same side†of any good works barrier (fisrt 20 or so verses of Romans 3). It is doing the works of Torah, of course, that is the very thing that the Jew might otherwise boast in and which is now being declared to not be salvific.
What Paul says in verses 11 and following does not cohere with a “works = good works†interpretation but makes perfect sense if we understand the "works" in verse 9 as the works of Torah, and not "good works" in the more general sense.
As my earlier post suggested, I think that you have not correctly understood what Paul means here by the term "works".vja4Him said:
I believe that in Ephesians 2:9, Paul is denying the salvific power of doing the works of Torah, and is not talking about the more general category of “good worksâ€.
To be fair here, the reader needs to unshackle himself from the deeply ingrained, reformation inspired, pre-disposition to read "works" as "good works" in Ephesians 2:9. Once freed of that pre-disposition, the reader can then ask the question as which of the following views makes more sense given the arguments Paul mounts in verse 11 and following (and other stuff we know Paul believes):
1. The salvific power of doing good works is being denied in verse 9;
2. The salvific power of doing the works of the Law of Moses (the Torah) is being denied in verse 9.
Explanation 2 is the one that makes sense in light of what Paul goes on to say in verse 11 as well as what he says in Romans 3, where he makes it clear that, in respect to good works, the Jew and the Gentile are in the same boat.
Proceeding to an examination of Ephesians 2:11 and following, Paul uses the "therefore" to show us that he is now going to fill out the implications of what he has just said. This is important because what follows will help disambiguate what Paul means by "works" in verse 9.
Therefore remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called "uncircumcised" by those who call themselves "the circumcision" (that done in the body by the hands of men)— 12remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise without hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.
Paul is clearly now talking about the Jew-Gentile divide, and how the actions of Jesus have brought Jew and Gentile together. Remember the "therefore" from verse 11 - Paul is telling us the implications of his verse 9 statement that none are saved by "works". Now here it becomes clear that these are the works of Torah since, obviously, it is by doing the works of Torah, being "under Torah" as it were, that the Jew could say "I am part of God's covenant people" or I am a member of "Israel". What marks out the nation Israel from the Gentile? Possession and doing of Torah, of course. This is an exceedingly powerful argument - Paul here is obviously talking about the basis on which the Gentiles were excluded from membership in the covenant family - and that basis is obviously the possession of Torah and doing its works.
14For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations
How much more clear could Paul be - he is talking about Torah. What has divided the Jew from the Gentile and been the barrier? Good works? Obviously not, both Jew and Gentile are in Adam – they are on “the same side†of any good works barrier (fisrt 20 or so verses of Romans 3). It is doing the works of Torah, of course, that is the very thing that the Jew might otherwise boast in and which is now being declared to not be salvific.
What Paul says in verses 11 and following does not cohere with a “works = good works†interpretation but makes perfect sense if we understand the "works" in verse 9 as the works of Torah, and not "good works" in the more general sense.
vja4Him
Member
Re: The Cross of Jesus ...
Shad -- You continue to ignore the issues that I bring up, and do just exactly what the cultists do ... Avoid the issues ....
And now you judge my salvation, when I have done what the Bible says to do.
Romans 10:9-10, “9That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.â€
I'm so thankful that YOU are NOT my judge ... !!! God will judge you, the same as He will judge me. I have confessed with my mouth that Jesus is Lord, and I have believed in my heart that God raised Him from the dead, and I will be saved.
With your bad attitude, and continued bearing false witness, you testify against yourself!
shad said:
Shad -- You continue to ignore the issues that I bring up, and do just exactly what the cultists do ... Avoid the issues ....
And now you judge my salvation, when I have done what the Bible says to do.
Romans 10:9-10, “9That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.â€
I'm so thankful that YOU are NOT my judge ... !!! God will judge you, the same as He will judge me. I have confessed with my mouth that Jesus is Lord, and I have believed in my heart that God raised Him from the dead, and I will be saved.
With your bad attitude, and continued bearing false witness, you testify against yourself!
I agree. But one can also have works without faith.
The bible says faith without works is dead. It doesnt says works with out faith is alive.
Surely the question and purpose of this thread is to define and refine what our Salvation is based on, and it is faith. For the christian first and then for the honest seeker. My friend, with your doctrines you have zero chance of leading a man to a saving faith in Christ. You have no good news for him.
Because we know CLEARLY, that works has nothing to do with a saving faith IE, what saves a man's soul. Which is the most important message of the bible and of Christianity, would you not agree?
That is not to say that works are not evidence of a man's salvation however. Not at all. Shall we go on sinning so that grace may abound? By no means.
In that case you can not claim that your works save you either, and yet you do. Why?
Can we agree that works are evidence of salvation, not a requirement of salvation?
Works are what Christians do IE it is the fruit of salvation.
Chinese people eat chinese food because there are chinese, we eat it because we like it.
Christians do the work of God, because they are children of God. Some people do the works of God because they think it will save them. WRONG! Works won't make you a Christian any more than eating chinese food makes you a chinaman.
You can not be saved by works.
THE END.
Christ said if you Love me you will feed my sheep - not - if you want to keep your salvation you will feed my sheep. Works are the fruit of a love of the Lord, nothing more.
An orange tree can do nothing but produce oranges. A christian can do nothing but produce fruits unto righteousness. SOme trees take along time to grow before they produce fruit. Keep that in mind, it doesnt mean they aint an orange tree before an orange arrives. An orange seed, is an orange tree in the making.
Justified before God and man.
Drew, you bring up some interesting points, but I don't agree it has anything to do with whether it's Jews or not. James speaks of justification before man (fruit). Paul speaks of justification unto God. (salvation - root) God looks at the heart...man sees the fruit.
Drew, you bring up some interesting points, but I don't agree it has anything to do with whether it's Jews or not. James speaks of justification before man (fruit). Paul speaks of justification unto God. (salvation - root) God looks at the heart...man sees the fruit.
Look at Abraham. We see Abraham's faith was counted for righteousness.
Now, works are added...he has whereof to glory...but not before God. Now he's justified before men...it's the fruit men see. Therefore it's not to salvation.
shad said:
MAte, you have ignored everything I and others have said and are saying.
Jesus is my Lord, only because He saved me. IE. Lord and Saviour. My works cannot save me or preserve me, any more than yours can save you. Nor do my lack of works damn me, and at times my works are lacking.
One isnt saved if one believes your works can save you. I can tell you that for a fact. If your works could save you, do think God would have come down out of his comfortable heaven and put himself to death on a cross to save us??? Your a fool mate. A nice fool, but a fool all the same.
If we Love Him we will obey his commandments, and we do because they are not grevous to obey.
Why do you obey the Lords Commandments? I am assuming that you do of course. Benefit of the doubt n all that.
When the bible says go out into all the world and preach the gospel. What gospel is this???