SALVATION

[francisdesales]

Re: The Cross of Jesus ...

Taking up my cross is NOT getting or staying saved ... Jesus is simply telling us that if we believe in Him, we will suffer for our belief in Him. There will be trials along the way, while serving God.

This a failure to understand that this is a COMMAND to the disciple, not an indication of what will happen to the disciple. We are not going to suffer "trials" DAILY. We are to follow Christ DAILY...

A COMMAND.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Re: Romans - James Contradiction ... ???

There really is no contradiction between Romans and James. We are saved ONLY by the WORKS of Jesus Christ, period.

So how can you NOT be accused of universal redemption, how can you DENY that you do not teach that Stalin and Hitler are in heaven???
If man plays absolutely no part in his salvation, then you have torn Christianity down. There is no further need to read Scriptures, worship God, or do any good deeds, since "Christ did it all, already and we can do nothing".

So Paul was NOT being sarcastic to 'drink, eat, and be merry"...

I am curious to know why he even BOTHERED to preach the Gospel and suffer all that he describes in 2 Corinthians...

This is the logical conclusion of "Jesus did everything, I don't have to do anything" craziness...

One is rightfully accused of preaching a false gospel of libertinism...

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Re: The Cross of Jesus ...

I have already been cufcified with Christ, once. I don't need to be crucified again, or crucify Christ over and over ....

I walk daily with Christ, carry my cross after Christ daily, but I am not carry a cross to be saved over and over again. I'm saved once, crucified with Christ. My sins are forgiven, past, present and future ....

When I sin, I ask Jesus to forgive me, and He does. I don't have to perform any works to be forgiven, or get saved again and again .....

How do you KNOW any of this!!!

If you fall away in the future, this "walking daily with Christ" did not actually take place, according to OSAS 'theory'. You CLAIM you have been crucified with Christ, but many said "Lord, Lord", and we know how OSAS people interpret that Scripture.

According to this theory, you don't even know if your sins have been "really" forgiven...

Sad...

 

[glorydaz]

Re: The Cross of Jesus ...

We can start this walk in Christ, but then find that the price is too high to pay and then we stop following Jesus to the cross.

Something isn't right here .... I don't need to keep following Jesus to the cross.

Luk 9:23 And he said to [them] all, If any [man] will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.

Can you see that you are wrong ?

It's the way you phrased it.
We aren't following Him to the cross.

Taking up the cross refers to denying self. Which Jesus spoke of before He even went to the cross. It's taking up our burden (cross), and following the way of Christ.

And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me. He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

He was resurrected. So are we.
In fact, we're not to glory in the works of the flesh...
We're to glory in His work on the cross...not go back to the cross.

As many as desire to make a fair shew in the flesh, they constrain you to be circumcised; only lest they should suffer persecution for the cross of Christ. 13For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh. 14But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.

 

[glorydaz]

Re: Falsely Accusing People ....

I will say ...once again....no one has ever said we aren't to be obedient.

What will happen if you are not obedient but willfully go against God ?

All sin is willful....there is no accidental sin.

But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

The LORD hath chastened me sore: but he hath not given me over unto death.

And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

 

[glorydaz]

Re: Falsely Accusing People ....

Now, you tell me, do you need works in order to be saved? Or to stay saved?

Which works are you talking about: Romans or James?

The correct answer....you don't need works to be saved.... whether it be Romans or James.

 

[glorydaz]

Abraham was justified by his faith because He believed God....
He was reckoned righteous long before he lifted the knife.
Because he believed God and was already justified by his faith, he obeyed God, just as we all do who truly believe.

No that is not what the Bible tells us about it. I have already proven through Scripture that Abraham was told after he lifted the knife: ....for NOW I know..........(After Abraham lifted the knife)


Gen 22:12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only [son] from me.

You'd better read it again. Fearing the Lord is not the same as being saved.
Abraham was saved by faith long before he even had a son.

 

[francisdesales]

Re: Falsely Accusing People ....

What will happen if you are not obedient but willfully go against God ?

All sin is willful....there is no accidental sin.

That statement is not only wrong (consult David on "unknown" sins), it avoids the question... What will happen if you are not obedient to God??? Would you like another helping of Ez 18:24?

You provide citations on chastisement, but sin ALSO can bring DEATH, not eternal LIFE.

Regards

 

[glorydaz]

Even our good works are not ours .... For we can do nothing without Christ.

It doesn't follow... When I am in Christ, I am doing good deeds, they are indeed my deeds - but I cannot do them without Christ, I cannot brag. Just the same, WE are credited with righteousness because of Christ's actions. We are a new creation in Christ, so they ARE our good works.

Regards

It's Christ's righteousness and His work through us.
If they're our works of righteousness, they are filthy rags.

But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

The credit for what good we do is His alone.

Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, 21Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

We are but the earthen vessels used of God...our "works" are not our own, but His.

For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. 7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

 

[glorydaz]

Re: Falsely Accusing People ....

What will happen if you are not obedient but willfully go against God ?

All sin is willful....there is no accidental sin.

That statement is not only wrong (consult David on "unknown" sins), it avoids the question... What will happen if you are not obedient to God??? Would you like another helping of Ez 18:24?

You provide citations on chastisement, but sin ALSO can bring DEATH, not eternal LIFE.

Regards

Ah, of course I was referring to the believer.
We have the Holy Spirit to make known our sins to us.
Do we not?

Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

I was not avoiding the question at all....he chastens us when we disobey.
You just didn't like my answer, but it doesn't mean it's not the truth.

Would you like another helping of Christ's work on the cross?
You said yourself He will lose none of His own.
Sin brings death, and the cross brings life....eternal life for those who are born again.

 

[glorydaz]

Re: Falsely Accusing People ....

I will say ...once again....no one has ever said we aren't to be obedient.

Let me ask you this, do you think churchgoers who say Jesus is Lord yet not showing any evidence of being His servants are still saved?

.

Many people claim to be saved...they even know all the right words to say.
That certainly doesn't mean they're saved.

By their fruit you will know them. Notice I say fruit not works.

 

[glorydaz]

Re: Works Based Salvation ...

We will never know, from God's point of view, who is "HIS", in this particular discussion. There is no Biblical guarantee given. There is HOPE.
Perhaps you should explain at WHAT POINT one is a "born again creature". Use biblical pasages, if you could...

I sense that here is your problem.

No, the problem is not mine. I'm not the one who doubts the Word of God.
This entire thread is filled with scripture that you choose to ignore, so if you need more proof...go back, you'll find plenty. The problem is your mind in so closed to the truth on this issue, that you've donkeyed down and continue to deny what you see. There are people who say they are saved and there are people who know they are saved. I'm one that knows. I have the Holy Spirit to confirm it to my heart. I don't just need to read the Word to know it. But, if you're interested you'll see eternal life, not perish, not condemned in the verse. Now you can continue to deny it...I can't force feed you the Word of God, but you're missing out on peace and rest if you think you can lose your salvation. The Holy Spirit makes it very clear to those who He indwells.

That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

If you don't believe the message, I wonder if you really believe at all.
You speak of hope....hope is tied up in belief in our Lord.
It's a blessed "looking forward to"...not a, "gee I hope it's true."
Do you really believe what He said or not?
Read this entire portion and then tell me again how you don't believe it.

14For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. 15For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. 18For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 19For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. 20For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, 21Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. 23And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. 24For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? 25But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it. 26Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. 27And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God. 28And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. 29For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. 31What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? 32He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? 33Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. 34Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. 35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. 37Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. 38For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 39Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[glorydaz]

Re: Justified In Man's Eyes ....

[
I've been to so many churches that want to always SEE your good works.

I think you are falsely witnessing; most mainstream churches dont preach to obey everything that Jesus teaches.

But when I read the Bible, the Holy Spirit convicts me that I should NOT be showing off my good works. Sure, some people will know some things I do, but I don't have to prove anything to anyone, not men or God.

Jesus says "go make disciples of all nations... teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you."

You seem to be working against Jesus' above commandments.

.

Would you stop calling people liars?
Just because you're too dense to get it, doesn't mean we're lying.
There, are you happy...you've just made me lose my temper.
You have not had one positive thing to add to this conversation.

Here's a verse you can relate to....

For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

 

[glorydaz]

Re: What Works Do You Do ... ???

Cornelius -- What works do you do to get saved and/or stay saved ... ???

You are continually preaching that work does not save us. and above attack is just so laim. You are making Jesus' commandments so unimportant to take a heed. You keep ignoring what Jesus says "teaching them to obey everything ..."

.

1 Corinthians 3:3
For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

 

[glorydaz]

Re: What Works Do You Do ... ???

We are accounted righteous when we believe God NOT JUST by believing IN GOD.

Man this is a hard thing for some people to hear !!!!!!!!

Are you implying we don't know this?

Is it your work to pretend like people are stupid so you'll look clever?

Believing in Jesus is believing His message.
His message is we're saved by His work ...not our own.

 

[glorydaz]

Re: The Cross of Jesus ...

No sir, we are to take our old self to the cross daily. Jesus say we cannot be His disciples is we do not do this.
Luk 14:27 Whosoever doth not bear his own cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.


A cross is an instrument of death, not just something heavy that we carry. A cross brings death to the flesh. This is symbolized by baptism my emersion. This is also foreshadowed by circumcision , the cutting off of the flesh. The blood in circumcision foreshadows the blood of Jesus.

Galatians 2:20

0I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

I have already been cufcified with Christ, once. I don't need to be crucified again, or crucify Christ over and over ....

I walk daily with Christ, carry my cross after Christ daily, but I am not carry a cross to be saved over and over again. I'm saved once, crucified with Christ. My sins are forgiven, past, present and future ....

When I sin, I ask Jesus to forgive me, and He does. I don't have to perform any works to be forgiven, or get saved again and again .....

Amen, brother.

 

[glorydaz]

Re: The Cross of Jesus ...

I walk daily with Christ, carry my cross after Christ daily, but I am not carry a cross to be saved over and over again. I'm saved once, crucified with Christ. My sins are forgiven, past, present and future ....

I f you are carrying the cross after Christ daily, you will not preach against Jesus' commandment. You are giving false assurance of "you-don't-need-good-works-to-be-saved". Striving to follow everything that Jesus teaches is indeed a lot of work.

.

Gee, that's too bad.
Is this a false assurance?
Are you boasting about all that striving and hard work you do?

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast

 

[glorydaz]

Re: The Cross of Jesus ...

When I sin, I ask Jesus to forgive me, and He does. I don't have to perform any works to be forgiven, or get saved again and again .....

You are still confusing Paul's pre-salvation works, with James's works of faith.

No, James was speaking of one's "works" being a sign to men.
If you're so interested in being a man-pleaser instead of a pleaser of God, you'll be hung up on a works doctrine. It's the fruit of the spirit ...you keep calling it works because James called it works. James knows true works are the Lord's not men's. He was saying, "By their fruit you shall know them." Unless, of course, you think James was preaching a different Gospel.

 

[glorydaz]

Re: The Cross of Jesus ...

Taking up my cross is NOT getting or staying saved ... Jesus is simply telling us that if we believe in Him, we will suffer for our belief in Him. There will be trials along the way, while serving God.

This a failure to understand that this is a COMMAND to the disciple, not an indication of what will happen to the disciple. We are not going to suffer "trials" DAILY. We are to follow Christ DAILY...

A COMMAND.

Regards

You do notice, don't you, that this man claimed he had obeyed all commandments...good works, but that was not enough? And yes, taking up our cross does involve many trials along the way. We're to give up all we have...even ourselves, and any "good works" we might claim. We follow Him and allow Him to show forth His love through us. To be worthy of following Jesus...we give up all.

17And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life? 18And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God. 19 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother. 20And he answered and said unto him, Master, all these have I observed from my youth. 21Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me. 22And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions.

 

[glorydaz]

Re: Romans - James Contradiction ... ???

There really is no contradiction between Romans and James. We are saved ONLY by the WORKS of Jesus Christ, period.

So how can you NOT be accused of universal redemption, how can you DENY that you do not teach that Stalin and Hitler are in heaven???
If man plays absolutely no part in his salvation, then you have torn Christianity down. There is no further need to read Scriptures, worship God, or do any good deeds, since "Christ did it all, already and we can do nothing".
So Paul was NOT being sarcastic to 'drink, eat, and be merry"...
I am curious to know why he even BOTHERED to preach the Gospel and suffer all that he describes in 2 Corinthians...
This is the logical conclusion of "Jesus did everything, I don't have to do anything" craziness...
One is rightfully accused of preaching a false gospel of libertinism...
Regards

Have you been so long with us that you still don't understand? ;)
BTW...when did Paul say, eat, drink and be merry? I thought that was Solomon.

The fact that Jesus did the work of salvation does NOT mean that all are saved.
And no one has said that. The only thing man has to do is accept the free gift.
He gives us each a measure of faith...with which we're to present ourselves to Him.
We're not to think ourselves more highly than we ought.

1I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. 2And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. 3For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.