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SALVATION

Not By Works ....

Neither the works of the law or any other works can save you or keep you saved.

Ephesians 2:8-9

8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast.

Cornelius said:
Panin said:
No works save. If
Sorry bud, by I am going to rather believe God when He says:

Jam 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Hand in hand they walk LOL Faith and Works :yes

But nobody seems to know the difference between the "works of the law" (Paul) and the "works of faith" James. Some think they are only good works. Well if they are good works then they are indeed WORKS, because James tells us they.....justify.

OK, so now we know they are not GOOD WORKS.............they are something else.

Any ideas :lol
 
Re: Rewards Don't Keep Us Saved

vja4Him said:
I am not running a race for my salvation. The scripture speaks of our rewards, which do not get us a ticket into heaven:

1 Corinthians 9:24-27

24Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.

25And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.

26I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:

27But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Wrong.

Again, context is so important...

Keep reading that passage...

Paul says he MAY be disqualified.

NO ONE receives ANY reward if they are disqualified... :shame

Clearly, he is not speaking of "rewards"...

Regards
 
Re: Not By Works ....

vja4Him said:
Neither the works of the law or any other works can save you or keep you saved.

Ephesians 2:8-9

8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast.
I think your reasoning is incorrect here.

I believe I have provided a solid argument that Paul is referring explicitly and exclusively to the "works" of the Law of Moses here. If that is so, you cannot simply assume that he is saying anything beyond this.

And, in fact, we know he is not denying salvation by good works, since he clearly affirms justification by good works in Romans 2.

You really need to address my post about what "works" refers to in Eph 2.
 
francisdesales said:
ALONE, my works cannot save myself. In Christ, MY works are indeed righteous.
Our boasting is excluded by the law of faith.
Romans 3:22-27 said:
Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
Christ NEVER said that HIS righteousness would "cover up" the believer, as if God did not see Him. That is a MAJOR mistake of many of our separated brothers. They cannot comprehend the paradigm of love, covenant and relationship when discussing what happens between God and man.
It's His robe of righteousness we're covered with. We have no righteousness of our own.
Isaiah 61:10 said:
I will greatly rejoice in the LORD, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decketh himself with ornaments, and as a bride adorneth herself with her jewels.
Thus, they must invent an interpretation that has God REPLACING man, totally unscriptural.
Not pretend. Not tossed aside as "filthy rags" as Christ does it all, as you would with a five year old who you can't trust to do anything.
Nor did I ever claim God replaces man. We are the body of Christ...He works His will through us.
Philippians 2:13 said:
For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

MY RIGHTEOUSNESS is REAL, based on the Spirit of God working within me. There is no need to present a false humility - GOD DESIRES to participate with us.
We're to be clothed with humility...no false about it.
1 Peter 5:5 said:
Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.


glorydaz said:
The credit for what good we do is His alone.
[quote:1pd3gk0a]Where does the Bible say this? I am not familiar with that passage. It says we cannot brag, we cannot claim that WE did it ALONE, but it doesn't say "the credit all belongs to God". Can you please provide a citation???
[/quote:1pd3gk0a]
So how can the "credit all belong to God"? HE HIMSELF in Scriptures says otherwise...
I'm surprised you don't know this.
1 Corinthians 10:31 said:
Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.
We're to give all glory to God....unless you want to get eaten by worms.
John 7:18 said:
He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.
Acts 12:23 said:
And immediately the angel of the Lord smote him, because he gave not God the glory: and he was eaten of worms, and gave up the ghost.
 
Re: Falsely Accusing People ....

francisdesales said:
SOME may continue to sin and NOT repent... What then??? Their past repentance never happened??? This in effect tells us that you cannot even know you repented in the past!!!
I have asked you on several occasions to reflect on "how do you know when someone is saved".

You refused to answer.

I have asked you on several occasions to answer "at what point does someone know they are indeed saved - and really are"?

You have ignored it.

I have asked you to explain that logic of OSAS that leads you to realize you can NEVER know if you are indeed having a "true" relationship with God - since OSAS will claim "you never had it".

Again, nothing...Regards
And you're a false accuser. I have answered and given you a mountain of scripture, which you, in your arrogance, continue to ignore. You were even agreeing at one point, but you must have gone off and filled yourself anew with your false doctrine.

Just because you don't have the Holy Spirit dwelling in you, you assume no one else can.

Had you been born again, you would know all these things....yet you know none of them.

You have a head knowledge but no heart knowledge...you grieve the Holy Spirit because you doubt God's power to keep those who are His.
Like a horse, you can be led to the living water, but I can't make you drink.
When you have assurance, you will have Christ in you. Until then, you can not even know what it is.
1 Corinthians 2:14 said:
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
 
glorydaz said:
Our boasting is excluded by the law of faith.
Romans 3:22-27 said:
Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
But, again, you generalize beyond what Paul is saying. Paul's critique here is not directed at the boast of the morally self-righteous, it is directed at the Jew who thinks that being marked out by the ethnic specificity of the Torah gives him an inside track on salvation. How do we know that Paul is thinking in these terms? By what he goes on to write:

For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law. 29Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too

Now please, Paul would not write this if his argument was about "faith vs works". No. Unless Paul suddenly and unpredictably changes topics, his point is obviously that salvation (and justification) are not limted to those with the Law of Moses. That is, the Jews.
 
Re: I Know Whom I Have Believed ... !!!

francisdesales said:
vja4Him said:
francisdesales said:
How do you KNOW any of this!!!

I know whom I have believed, and He (Jesus) is faithful, even when we are not faithful ... !!! Oh ye of little faith ...

2 Timothy 1:12

Hey, between you and me, I believe you, and I feeel the same way...

But don't let the OSAS police know this - because if you fall away, they'll throw it in your face that you DID NOT BELIEVE.

EVER!!!

Don't you get that, yet???? How many more times must I say this before it sinks in??? Stop ignoring the obvious and start seeking the truth. OSAS is a failure. It proves that all the subjective faith in the world can STILL be denied later down the road...

"You never were saved to begin with". Thus, whatever you say today is NOT secure.

Regards
Those people may come knocking on your door, but they will never come knocking on mine...or any other true believer. Since you have no assurance, personally, you try to make sure others doubt like you do. It's a shame to see such a devil's doctrine being preached under the guise of Christianity. :bigfrown
Hebrews 13:5 said:
Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.
For those of us who have been born again...we are sealed unto the day of redemption.
You obviously can't claim the same. You aren't sealed yet....you have not obtained the inheritance because you have not the Holy Spirit. If you had, you'd be sealed with the assurance of the Spirit.
Ephesians 1: 11-14 said:
In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
 
vja4Him said:
glorydaz said:
shad said:
Glory and vja,

You guys are slithering away with the Word. Talk about twisting. You should be ashamed of yourselves.

.

Thanks again, Shad...nothing I like better than to partake in the fellowship of his suffering.
He was reviled and did not revile back. :yes
2 Timothy 1:12 said:
For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.

Amen! And I continue to pray for those who are not yet sure of their salvation, that one day they will find true peace in Jesus, and KNOW that they ARE saved for eternity ....
This is what's know as not confessing the Lord Jesus Christ.
Confessing Him is confessing all He's told us...not just a part of it.
They can't confess He saved them...they deny the work of the cross.
 
Re: Falsely Accusing People ....

glorydaz said:
And you're a false accuser. I have answered and given you a mountain of scripture, which you, in your arrogance, continue to ignore. You were even agreeing at one point, but you must have gone off and filled yourself anew with your false doctrine.

Just because you don't have the Holy Spirit dwelling in you, you assume no one else can.

Had you been born again, you would know all these things....yet you know none of them.

You have a head knowledge but no heart knowledge...you grieve the Holy Spirit because you doubt God's power to keep those who are His.
Like a horse, you can be led to the living water, but I can't make you drink.
When you have assurance, you will have Christ in you. Until then, you can not even know what it is.
1 Corinthians 2:14 said:
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Eeeew. You guys better look at your fruit a bit. If you carry on in this manner, you will have to understand if this thread gets closed

I am going away for a few days, so ......play nicely :) Don't let me get back here to find you all have been fighting . :yes
 
francisdesales said:
glorydaz said:
It's Christ's righteousness and His work through us.
If they're our works of righteousness, they are filthy rags.

Again, a major misunderstanding of Scriptures based upon ONE verse taken out of context...

ALONE, my works cannot save myself. In Christ, MY works are indeed righteous.

Christ NEVER said that HIS righteousness would "cover up" the believer, as if God did not see Him. That is a MAJOR mistake of many of our separated brothers. They cannot comprehend the paradigm of love, covenant and relationship when discussing what happens between God and man.

Thus, they must invent an interpretation that has God REPLACING man, totally unscriptural. Christ is our REPRESENTATIVE. We PARTICIPATE. We don't sit by idly and passively as Christ "does it all". This is feeble Christianity, to put it nicely. It totally overlooks the GOOD NEWS - that man is MADE, I say again MADE holy...

Do you hear me???

MADE HOLY.

Not pretend. Not tossed aside as "filthy rags" as Christ does it all, as you would with a five year old who you can't trust to do anything... Our relationship with God is one of love. God shares His life with us, and not grudgingly, having to "replace" our work IN HIM.

Know this. AS a new creation, my good works are NOT filthy rags in God's eyes, since the Holy Spirit is THE MOVING PRINCIPLE within me. NOT MYSELF. And yet, Christ NEVER said HIS righteousness would replace us. In Matthew 5, He says that "unless YOURrighteousness surpasses the Pharisees and Scribes, you shall not see eternal life".

MY RIGHTEOUSNESS is REAL, based on the Spirit of God working within me. There is no need to present a false humility - GOD DESIRES to participate with us.

glorydaz said:
The credit for what good we do is His alone.

Where does the Bible say this? I am not familiar with that passage. It says we cannot brag, we cannot claim that WE did it ALONE, but it doesn't say "the credit all belongs to God". Can you please provide a citation???

We can do nothing good without the Lord, but WE must make the choice to ALLOW God to work within us, as Mary did at the Annunciation - "Let it be done to me according to your word".

Oh, most holy virgin, we pray that we may walk in your footsteps and obey the Lord as you did...

We all have that choice to make. And this faith is credited to US as RIGHTEOUSNESS. Thus GOD HIMSELF credits us with righteousness!

GOD HIMSELF CREDITS US WITH RIGHTOUSNESS.

So how can the "credit all belong to God"? HE HIMSELF in Scriptures says otherwise...

It is not Christ who will be judged at the end of time, but OUR COOPERATION - this is credited to us as wickedness or righteousness... God gives us "talents", without which, we can do nothing. But at the end of the day, did WE bury them or invest them??? God is not judged... WE will be.

Regards

Your "works" will be burned up as stubble if you are doing them to earn your salvation. If you have received Christ your soul will be saved and you will still get into heaven by the skin of yor teeth, but the motivation for all of our works will be tested in the fire.

Your motivatation for works is clearly to earn your salvation. (stubble mate, stubble.)

This is not Christianity let alone feeble christianity.

MADE holy, or to be made holy, or being made Holy don't mean to make yourself Holy. ARe you listening??

Man this is a tedious fruitless, pointless arguement. Its going no where fast.
 
Re: The Cross of Jesus ...

francisdesales said:
There is no promise made to those who REJECT God and remain wicked. They will suffer the wrath of God. Are you familiar with the idea of Covenant? Those who willingly leave the Covenant that God holds out to men are subjected to damnation, even IF they once were considered holy and righteousness. God didn't promise to destroy man's free will and force them to righteous.

You're speaking of those who have never been saved. They may have been considered righteous, but not by God. He came not to save the righteous, but the lost.
But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, [and] doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked [man] doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die. Ez 18:24

Yep, you're talking about the unsaved again. This is not speaking of the righteousness of God that is imparted to those who believe in the Lord Jesus Christ.
Nope. No "OSAS" there... Nope...no salvation there at all...ever.

I can see where you're going wrong. Notice how Jesus said he came to save the sinners...not the righteous. Now, does that make sense if He was talking about real righteous people...since we know all men sin and come short? Of course not. He's talking about those who "think" they're righteous, and they can't be saved until they realize and admit they're sinners.

Matthew 9:13 said:
But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

1 Timothy 1:15 said:
This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
 
Another Gospel ....

Those who push their "Can Lose Your Salvation" teaching so strongly are right in league with the major cults!

When you have to add YOUR works for YOUR salvation, you cannot be saved. Simple ... Either it's salvation through Jesus, or salvation only through your works, or salvation through Jesus and you.

If your salvation depends on YOU and Jesus, then you have not understood the gospel of salvation according to the Bible. Rather, you are pushing another gospel, which is very dangerous ground ....

Galatians 1:8-9

But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!

9As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!

Drew said:
vja4Him said:
Neither the works of the law or any other works can save you or keep you saved.

Ephesians 2:8-9

8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast.
I think your reasoning is incorrect here.

I believe I have provided a solid argument that Paul is referring explicitly and exclusively to the "works" of the Law of Moses here. If that is so, you cannot simply assume that he is saying anything beyond this.

And, in fact, we know he is not denying salvation by good works, since he clearly affirms justification by good works in Romans 2.

You really need to address my post about what "works" refers to in Eph 2.
 
Re: Count it all Dung ... !!!

vja4Him said:
francisdesales said:
ALONE, my works cannot save myself. In Christ, MY works are indeed righteous.

Then, you sir, have something to boast about ... !!! Keep boasting away all you want ....

What did the apostle Paul have to say about his good works ... ???

Philippians 3:8

Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,

He also said...1 Tim. 1:15-16...This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.
 
Re: Not By Works ....

Drew said:
vja4Him said:
Neither the works of the law or any other works can save you or keep you saved.

Ephesians 2:8-9

8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast.
I think your reasoning is incorrect here.

I believe I have provided a solid argument that Paul is referring explicitly and exclusively to the "works" of the Law of Moses here. If that is so, you cannot simply assume that he is saying anything beyond this.

And, in fact, we know he is not denying salvation by good works, since he clearly affirms justification by good works in Romans 2.

You really need to address my post about what "works" refers to in Eph 2.

It doesn't say what kind of works, but it doesn't have to. Ephesians 2:8-9 makes if very clear that we are not saved by works period, so that nobody can boast.
 
Re: Who Are the OSAS Police Anyways ... ???

francisdesales said:
vja4Him said:
francisdesales said:
But don't let the OSAS police know this - because if you fall away, they'll throw it in your face that you DID NOT BELIEVE.

BTW ... Who is this OSAS Police ... ??? I don't believe in the OSAS Police ....

Those who believe in OSAS are the OSAS police, since THEY judge other's salvation as non-existent when they fall away... They retroactively pull the rug out from those who SAID they were saved in the past but have fallen away...

You haven't flashed your badge yet, but if you support OSAS, you eventually will judge other people's walk of the past as pretend and false - even if you never knew the guy... Based on your "knowledge" of a fallen away Christian TODAY, you will claim that all of their past "Hallelujah's" were false...

Regards

Ive fallen away heaps of times into sin. Your the Police who are saying I lost my salvation at those times.

Ive been saved 9691 times so far in that case. Either that or Im a doomed for all eternity.

BUNKUM.
 
Re: Not By Works ....

vja4Him said:
Drew said:
vja4Him said:
Neither the works of the law or any other works can save you or keep you saved.

Ephesians 2:8-9

8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast.
I think your reasoning is incorrect here.

I believe I have provided a solid argument that Paul is referring explicitly and exclusively to the "works" of the Law of Moses here. If that is so, you cannot simply assume that he is saying anything beyond this.

And, in fact, we know he is not denying salvation by good works, since he clearly affirms justification by good works in Romans 2.

You really need to address my post about what "works" refers to in Eph 2.

It doesn't say what kind of works, but it doesn't have to. Ephesians 2:8-9 makes if very clear that we are not saved by works period, so that nobody can boast.

Hey brother, why are we bothering with this, its a no win situation?

Can you tell me what WOF is, Im taking it you mean Works of the flesh churches, is that right?

in NZ Wof means Warrant of Fitness for a car. Christ is my Warrent of fitness. LOL.

Have a great day bro.
 
Re: Another Gospel ....

vja4Him said:
If your salvation depends on YOU and Jesus, then you have not understood the gospel of salvation according to the Bible. Rather, you are pushing another gospel, which is very dangerous ground ....

Galatians 1:8-9

But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!

9As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!
You posted the above material immediately before posting my response to one of your posts. It would be easy for the reader to get the impression that you are implying that I deny the gospel and fall under the judgement declared by Paul.

If that was not your intent, please indicate.

If it was your intent, then we have other problems to deal with.

In any event, I made an argument about Ephesians 2:8-9 and what it means. You cannot, legitimately anyway, simply ignore that argument and hope that it goes away. You need to engage my argument about how Paul is not denying justification by "good works" in that text.
 
glorydaz said:
Romans 3:22-27 said:
Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.


That pretty much says it all. The scripture clearly teaches that we do not have any righteousness of our own. Anyone who claims to be righteous on their own is mislead by the lies of the enemy.

For someone to believe they must add their good works to their salvation, they are believing that the blood of Jesus is not good enough! Which seems like at least border-line blasphemy! Possibly even full blown blasphemy ....

I will believe what the Bible clearly says, that Jesus is enough for my salvation. He paid the price with His precious blood ...
 
Re: Not By Works ....

vja4Him said:
It doesn't say what kind of works, but it doesn't have to. Ephesians 2:8-9 makes if very clear that we are not saved by works period, so that nobody can boast.
The fact that it doesn't explicitly say what kind of works does not lessen the force of my argument, which you need to engage. As my argument shows, the context makes it clear that the "works" here are the works of the Law of Moses.
 
Precious Blood of Christ ...

1 Peter 1:18-21

18For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your forefathers, 19but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect. 20He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake. 21Through him you believe in God, who raised him from the dead and glorified him, and so your faith and hope are in God.
 
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