SALVATION

[glorydaz]

Re: Peace Like A River - Carman ...

True peace can only come from knowing that you are secure in the works of Jesus Christ. Otherwise, you cannot know for certain if you really one of His.

Here is something to lift up your spirit a bit ....

Peace Like A River - Carman

Lifted my spirit and even had me singing along. Thanks for sharing.

 

[vja4Him]

You are Contradicting Yourself ... !!!

I am not sure who you think is denying the cross. If you think that those who assert the necessity of "good works" for salvation, such as I am asserting, then you are lumping Paul in those who "deny the cross".

Okay, Drew, here is what you said in a previous post:

Who said such a thing? Certainly not moi - if you read my posts carefully. I would agree that "our own good works" are not necessary for salvation.

You are clearly straddling the fence .... Make up your mind. Which side are you on:

1) Salvation by grace through faith, without our own works

or

2) Salvation by Jesus and your own works

You have clearly contradicted yourself, when you said:

"who assert the necessity of "good works" for salvation, such as I am asserting"

and:

"I would agree that "our own good works" are not necessary for salvation."

 

[vja4Him]

Precious Blood of Jesus ....

Who is the OSAS Police ... ??? I know who it is ....

The devil, Satan, is the accuser of God's people. The enemy came before God, hurling accusations against Job. But you know what ... ??? We don't have to listen to the accuser. He wants us to doubt our faith. He wants us to doubt God. He wants us to doubt the Bible.

We must put on the full armor of God, and withstand the wiles of the devil.

Ephesians 6:11

Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

I can hear him now....You are not surely saved.

Yes, the enemy, Satan, will whisper lies .... and one of them is that you cannot know if you are saved, so just keep working, and working, and doing lots of good deeds. That's it, you are good. You can do it. Christ's work on the cross was not enough. His blood was not good enough for the sacrifice ...

Those are lies straight from the pit of hell people ... !!! Jesus' blood is precious, and His blood is the ultimate sacrafice. You see, we don't have to sacrifice anymore, like they did in the Old Testament.

Jesus paid the price, with His sacrifice on the cross. Do what the Bible says:

Romans 10:9-10, “9That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.â€

 

[Panin]

Re: Rewards Don't Keep Us Saved

You bring up a very good point. We do get rewards according to our obedience.

Yes this is a good point, and it has always troubled me a little IE if one is working for rewards, I dont think one will be rewarded, I think these works will be burned as stubble.

I think going the extra mile EG for an employer working overtime without pay etc, just for the satisfaction of doing a good job, is something that one will be rewarded for, but then if one is doing it in the exepctation of being rewarded, then I doubt one will be rewarded.

Rewards are unexpected blessings, not earnings for services rendered.

Just my opinion.

I seem to recall something along the lines of said rewards being Jewels in our crown that we place at the feet of the Lord. IE we give them all to the Lord anyway.

 

[vja4Him]

Re: Not By Works ....

But let's not pretend that Paul did not write Romans 2, where he clearly and unambiguously links salvation to the manifestation of good works. You cant be with me and against me.

I have no issue with salvation manifesting Good works. That you can agree is a step forward.

I do take fundmantal issue with people who say, works are a required part of the salvation transaction (on an ongoing basis) between an unregeneraterd man, the blood of Christ and God.

Works do not enter into to this supernatural transaction, and that works in whatever form may be a fruit of this transaction, is in no way condtadictory of this. We are sealed.

Paul practically wrote the whole new testament and started umpteen churches throughout the world, he was beaten and stoned for the gosple that you are blaspheming. Me thinks you "works" guys aren't doing enough to be saved. Paul said "follow me as I follow Christ". If you are not doing exactly what he did, and all the magnificent works that he did, I conclude that you are no where near saved enough yet, you had better all get cracking and stop wasting your time arguing with people who are already saved.

Paul might have something rather important to say, if he were here with us today:

Galatians 1:8-9

8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.

 

[glorydaz]

Hi glorydaz:

I have studied Romans 4 in some detail and am convinced of the following:

1. As elsehwere in Romans, the "works" of verse 2 are the works of Torah, not good works in general. Again, Paul is saying that Abraham was not saved just because he was Jewish - read the rest of the chapter.

2. The bit about the workman working in verses 4 and 5 is a metaphor - it is not a denial of what Paul has said so clearly in Romans 2 - that good works are indeed needed for ultimate salvation.

No time to defend either of these points right now - hopefully later.

Uh...I wouldn't go that far.
Fruit will normally be manifest, but that is no where close to saying good works are needed for ultimate salvation. I hope you're not saying a born again Christian can lose their salvation. That's simply not the case. When we're born again, we are a new creature and have been given eternal life.

If a believer loves God, that alone is a fruit of the Spirit.
He may not have time to do any more than that, so you can't say good works are any part of being saved. God alone knows someones heart, and we can't tell by looking at their deeds whether they're one's own works or those of God.

 

[Panin]

Re: Not By Works ....

But let's not pretend that Paul did not write Romans 2, where he clearly and unambiguously links salvation to the manifestation of good works. You cant be with me and against me.

I have no issue with salvation manifesting Good works. That you can agree is a step forward.

I do take fundmantal issue with people who say, works are a required part of the salvation transaction (on an ongoing basis) between an unregeneraterd man, the blood of Christ and God.

Works do not enter into to this supernatural transaction, and that works in whatever form may be a fruit of this transaction, is in no way condtadictory of this. We are sealed.

Paul practically wrote the whole new testament and started umpteen churches throughout the world, he was beaten and stoned for the gosple that you are blaspheming. Me thinks you "works" guys aren't doing enough to be saved. Paul said "follow me as I follow Christ". If you are not doing exactly what he did, and all the magnificent works that he did, I conclude that you are no where near saved enough yet, you had better all get cracking and stop wasting your time arguing with people who are already saved.

Paul might have something rather important to say, if he were here with us today:

Galatians 1:8-9

8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.

Exactly brother, which further reiterates my point, lets stop wasting our time, blowing hot air, these guys aint interested. Take it easy Brother, have a good one.

Blessings.

 

[glorydaz]

No works save. If

Sorry bud, by I am going to rather believe God when He says:

Jam 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Hand in hand they walk LOL Faith and Works :yes

But nobody seems to know the difference between the "works of the law" (Paul) and the "works of faith" James. Some think they are only good works. Well if they are good works then they are indeed WORKS, because James tells us they.....justify.

OK, so now we know they are not GOOD WORKS.............they are something else.

Any ideas

I can see you didn't read my post about Abraham...it was very clear.
The works justify us before man, and faith justifies us before God.
It's as clear as the nose on your face, so you need to address that instead of going on as if it didn't exist.

 

[glorydaz]

But nobody seems to know the difference between the "works of the law" (Paul) and the "works of faith" James.

Well. I believe that I understand it. And I agree with you on this matter. People stumble on this because in cases where it is clear that Paul is talking about works of the Law of Moses, people read this as "good works". I think your analysis of James is spot on.

So, you see, we do not disagree on everything .

If you agree with him, I can see you're not saying what I thought you were.

Now, you're both wrong.

 

[glorydaz]

Re: Who Are the OSAS Police Anyways ... ???

But don't let the OSAS police know this - because if you fall away, they'll throw it in your face that you DID NOT BELIEVE.

BTW ... Who is this OSAS Police ... ??? I don't believe in the OSAS Police ....

Those who believe in OSAS are the OSAS police, since THEY judge other's salvation as non-existent when they fall away... They retroactively pull the rug out from those who SAID they were saved in the past but have fallen away...

You haven't flashed your badge yet, but if you support OSAS, you eventually will judge other people's walk of the past as pretend and false - even if you never knew the guy... Based on your "knowledge" of a fallen away Christian TODAY, you will claim that all of their past "Hallelujah's" were false...

Regards

I've been saved for 40 yrs...haven't fallen away yet.
I'm just wondering why you have no faith in our Lord to keep His own.

 

[vja4Him]

The Old Christian Hymns ....

True peace can only come from knowing that you are secure in the works of Jesus Christ. Otherwise, you cannot know for certain if you really one of His.

Here is something to lift up your spirit a bit ....

Peace Like A River - Carman

Lifted my spirit and even had me singing along. Thanks for sharing.

I have the album, "I Surrender All: 30 Classic Hymns." I love those old hymns .... Even though I had been to church all my life, I remembered very little from the preaching, except the preaching about hell ...

God used the reverence for His Word that I had learned from a young age, and the preaching of hell, fire and brimstone and the old hymns to bring me closer to Him ....

 

[westtexas]

Re: The Old Christian Hymns ....

I remembered very little from the preaching, except the preaching about hell ...
God used the reverence for His Word that I had learned from a young age, and the preaching of hell, fire and brimstone and the old hymns to bring me closer to Him ....

I still love the fire and brimstone preachers. Unfortunately, there just aren't enough of them around anymore.
Westtexas

 

[jasoncran]

everheard ken graves of calvary chapel of bangor maine?

 

[westtexas]

everheard ken graves of calvary chapel of bangor maine?

No sir, I haven't.
Westtexas

 

[glorydaz]

Re: Rewards Don't Keep Us Saved

I am not running a race for my salvation. The scripture speaks of our rewards, which do not get us a ticket into heaven:

1 Corinthians 9:24-27

24Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.

25And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.

26I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:

27But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Wrong.

Again, context is so important...

Keep reading that passage...

Paul says he MAY be disqualified.

NO ONE receives ANY reward if they are disqualified...

Clearly, he is not speaking of "rewards"...

Regards

Talk about reading out of context. You take the cake.

Paul is speaking about his ministry...it's been questioned.

3Mine answer to them that do examine me is this,

First you say people will fall away, but God won't cast them away.
Then you take a verse totally out of context and claim Paul is saying he could be "disqualified".
I don't think you read one single thing that's been posted, except what you write yourself, and you certainly don't read the Word...you read two or three verses from the Bible and stand on it like it's a rock instead of Jesus and His work on the cross. Talk about false prophets...we have them right here on this thread. Twist the Word a little more and maybe you'll get some milk. You need it.

Romans 11:1 - I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

Romans 11:2 - God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,

 

[jasoncran]

everheard ken graves of calvary chapel of bangor maine?

No sir, I haven't.
Westtexas

look him up @ ccbangor.org and look for the radio broadcast called God's Sword. listen and you tell me, he is a little opionated on somethings that aren't really necessary but he's bold.

he has no love for the doctrines of joel osteen and rick warren.

jason, and btw merry christmas.

 

[westtexas]

everheard ken graves of calvary chapel of bangor maine?

No sir, I haven't.
Westtexas

look him up @ ccbangor.org and btw merry christmas.

Thanks Jason, I'll check him out. And Merry Christmas to you too!!
Westtexas

 

[glorydaz]

I think your analysis of James is spot on.

Well, you're wrong, too. Instead of ignoring this...please read it...really read it.
A man is justified by works....but not before God. That's very important and you continue to ignore it.
I'm very disappointed in you, Drew. Are you going to take all of scripture or ignore what doesn't fit your theory? I at least take the time to explain what you and others put forth. Everyone else ignores the proof. Are you going to, also?

James speaks of justification before man (fruit). Paul speaks of justification unto God. (salvation - root) God looks at the heart...man sees the fruit. Do you admit that God looks at the heart and man looks at the works?

...for the LORD seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart.

We see we're justified by faith and have peace with God...no mention of works.
The only place you see works as any kind of justification is in James.
Scripture must agree....you can't through out justification by faith because of what James said.
You need to correctly understand what James was saying. That's why James said, "I'll SHOW you..."
Abraham lifting the knife was done well after Abraham was justified by faith.
His lifting the knife was the fruit of his faith....it did not save him.
The Lord rewarded him because of the working out of his faith, but it did not save him.

Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Look at Abraham. We see Abraham's faith was counted for righteousness.

And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

This even adds...to him that worketh not.

But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Now, works are added...he has whereof to glory...but not before God. Now he's justified before men...it's the fruit men see. Therefore it's not to salvation.

And they came to the place which God had told him of; and Abraham built an altar there, and laid the wood in order, and bound Isaac his son, and laid him on the altar upon the wood. And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son.

If Abraham were justified by works, he could glory...but not before God.Rom. 4:2

For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

 

[vja4Him]

It's All About the Heart ....

You bring up a very good point. We do get rewards according to our obedience.

Yes this is a good point, and it has always troubled me a little IE if one is working for rewards, I dont think one will be rewarded, I think these works will be burned as stubble.

I think going the extra mile EG for an employer working overtime without pay etc, just for the satisfaction of doing a good job, is something that one will be rewarded for, but then if one is doing it in the exepctation of being rewarded, then I doubt one will be rewarded.

Rewards are unexpected blessings, not earnings for services rendered.

Just my opinion.

I seem to recall something along the lines of said rewards being Jewels in our crown that we place at the feet of the Lord. IE we give them all to the Lord anyway.

It's all about our heart brother .... We need to be humble, not showing off like the Pharisees. The Bible speaks of praying in secret, and not showing off our good deeds ...

Sometimes people will see our good deeds though, and as long as our heart is right with God, and we are doing everything as unto the Lord, for His glory, it's all good.

 

[Drew]

I think your analysis of James is spot on.

Well, you're wrong, too. Instead of ignoring this...please read it...really read it.
A man is justified by works....but not before God. That's very important and you continue to ignore it.
I'm very disappointed in you, Drew. Are you going to take all of scripture or ignore what doesn't fit your theory? I at least take the time to explain what you and others put forth. Everyone else ignores the proof. Are you going to, also?

Please do not patronize me and descend to the form of "debate" that so many engage in here. Please do not make these baseless accusations and insinuations. Let's be clear - you have precisely zero real evidence to support these speculations that I ignore material - do you think that because I do not address each ands every post right away that I am "ignoring" you or that I do not take these discussions seriously. I think you will find, perhaps to your discomfort, that I take these matters very seriously indeed. I intend to address all your concerns as time permits. And please - you have absolutely no basis for any suggestion that I "reject" scripture that does not fit "my theory". What do you think? I have nothing else to occupy my time.

I have not read all the posts - have you, or anyone else, an explanation for the "salvation by works" text I posted from Romans 2?